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Re: Building CPython

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On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 6:59 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> However, in some respects, Python might be going overboard with its
> dynamism; are all those dunder methods really needed?

Yes - at least, most of them. As regards operators, there are three
options: either you have magic methods for all of them (Python style),
or none of them (Java style, no operator overloading), or you
hybridize and permit just a handful of them (and then you have to
decide which). There's really no reason not to have them. The other
dunder methods are a mixed bag; some are to allow you to customize
object creation itself (a class's __new__ method could be considered
equivalent to an instance-specific __call__ method on the type
object), some let you pretend to be different types of number
(__int__, __index__, __complex__), which allows you to duck-type
integerness rather than having to subclass int and rely on magic; and
others let you customize the behaviour of well-known functions, such
as __len__ for len() and __repr__ for repr(). Without dunder methods
for all of these, it would be difficult to make an object "play
nicely" with the overall Python ecosystem. There are others, though,
which are less crucial (__getstate__ and so on for pickle), but you
can ignore them if you're not using those features.

> Must "false" be defined so broadly?

Different languages define true and false differently. REXX says that
"1" is true and "0" is false, and anything else is an error. Pike says
that the integer 0 is false and anything else is true; the philosophy
is that a "thing" is true and the absence of any thing is false.
Python says that an empty "thing" is false and a non-empty "thing" is
true; if next(iter(x)) raises StopIteration, x is probably false, and
vice versa. All three have their merits, all three have their
consequences. One consequence of Python's model is that a __bool__
method is needed on any object that might be empty (unless it defines
__len__, in which case that makes a fine fall-back); it's normal in
Python code to distinguish between "if x:" and "if x is not None:",
where the former sees if x has anything in it, but the latter sees if
there x even exists. (More or less.)

> Must a method lookup necessarily involve object creation?

Actually, no. Conceptually, this method call:

foo.bar(1, 2, 3)

involves looking up 'foo' in the current namespace, looking up
attribute 'bar' on it, treating the result as a function, and calling
it with three integer objects as its arguments. And the language
definition demands that this work even if the "foo.bar" part is broken
out:

def return_function():
    return foo.bar

def call_function():
    return_function()(1, 2, 3)

But a particular Python implementation is most welcome to notice the
extremely common situation of method calls and optimize it. I'm not
sure if PyPy does this, but I do remember reading about at least one
Python that does; CPython has an optimization for the actual memory
allocations involved, though I think it does actually construct some
sort of object for each one; as long as the resulting behaviour is
within spec, objects needn't be created just to be destroyed.

Dynamism doesn't have to be implemented naively, just as long as the
slow path is there if anyone needs it.

ChrisA

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Building CPython BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-13 20:36 +0100
  Re: Building CPython Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-13 20:58 +0100
  Re: Building CPython Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-13 18:34 -0400
    Re: Building CPython BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-14 16:51 +0100
      Re: Building CPython Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 02:09 +1000
        Re: Building CPython BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-14 18:02 +0100
          Re: Building CPython Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-05-14 13:10 -0400
          Re: Building CPython Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 03:11 +1000
            Re: Building CPython BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-14 18:32 +0100
              Re: Building CPython Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 03:45 +1000
          Re: Building CPython Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-14 14:50 -0400
            Re: Building CPython Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-05-15 12:51 +0200
              Re: Building CPython Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-15 17:19 -0400
      Re: Building CPython Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-14 19:29 +0300
        Re: Building CPython BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-14 22:55 +0100
          Re: Building CPython MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-05-14 23:19 +0100
          Re: Building CPython BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-15 01:50 +0100
            Re: Building CPython Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-15 18:05 +1200
              Re: Building CPython Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-15 11:59 +0300
                Re: Building CPython wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-05-15 02:07 -0700
                Re: Building CPython Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-15 12:20 +0300
                Re: Building CPython wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-05-15 02:51 -0700
                Re: Building CPython Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-15 13:52 +0300
                Re: Building CPython Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-15 22:10 +1000
                Re: Building CPython Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 22:34 +1000
                Re: Building CPython wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-05-15 07:11 -0700
                Re: Building CPython Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-15 13:41 +0100
                Re: Building CPython Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-15 13:38 +0100
                Re: Building CPython Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 19:43 +1000
                Re: Building CPython Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-15 13:50 +0300
                Re: Building CPython Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-15 22:43 +1000
                Re: Building CPython Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 09:00 -0600
                Re: Building CPython Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 09:04 -0600
                Re: Building CPython Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-16 01:06 +1000
                Re: Building CPython Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-15 20:14 +1000
                Re: Building CPython Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-15 20:25 +1000
                Re: Building CPython Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-15 17:05 -0400
                Re: Building CPython BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-15 22:54 +0100
                Re: Building CPython Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-16 01:44 +0300
                Re: Building CPython Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-16 00:27 +0100
                Re: Building CPython Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-16 11:55 +1000
                Re: Building CPython Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-05-16 12:15 +1000
                Re: Building CPython Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-05-16 03:17 +0100
                Re: Building CPython BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-16 01:43 +0100
                Re: Building CPython MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-05-16 02:16 +0100
                Re: Building CPython Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-16 11:08 +0300
                Re: Building CPython Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-16 19:40 +1000
                Re: Building CPython Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-16 16:59 +0300
                Re: Building CPython Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-05-17 04:18 +1000
                Re: Building CPython Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-16 21:55 +0300
                Re: Building CPython Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-17 01:51 +0300
                Re: Building CPython Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-05-17 23:49 +0300
                Re: Building CPython Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-15 19:54 -0400
              Re: Building CPython BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-15 10:32 +0100
                Re: Building CPython Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-05-16 12:55 +1200
                Re: Building CPython Jonas Wielicki <jonas@wielicki.name> - 2015-05-17 14:25 +0200
                Re: Building CPython BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-05-17 14:41 +0100

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