Re: checking if a list is empty

From	Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu>
Subject	Re: checking if a list is empty
Date	2011-05-21 16:11 -0400
References	(6 earlier) <uk0q98-446.ln1@svn.schaathun.net> <4dca90c1$0$29980$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <hchq98-mi6.ln1@svn.schaathun.net> <930j6nFi2lU1@mid.individual.net> <87r57s6riu.fsf@pobox.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.1889.1306008729.9059.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 5/21/2011 10:46 AM, John J Lee wrote:

> In the absence of an explicit interface declaration (have any standards
> emerged for that in Python 3, BTW?), the use of len() does give you some
> information about the interface, which sometimes makes it easier to
> change the function.
>
> I'm sure you fully understand this, but I'll spell it out.  Consider
> this function:
>
> def xyzzy(x):
>      if x:
>          print "yes"

To me, this trivial procedure (it is not a mathematical function) is too 
unrealistic to be a basis for argument.

> Let's say I've read the function, and I've seen this call site:
>
> xyzzy(["spam", "eggs"])
>
> Now I want to change xyzzy:
>
> def xyzzy(x):
>      if x:
>          print "probably"
>      if len(x) == 1:
>          print "definitely"

You are not changing xyzzy, you are replacing a procedure whose domain 
is all python objects with a new procedure with a much reduced domain. 
In other words, you are changing (and contracting) the idea of the 
procedure. This is a somewhat crazy thing to do and if Python developers 
did something like that in the stdlib, I would expect multiple protest 
posting ;-). (Adding code to *expand* the domain is a different matter.)

If xyzzy were really about sized collections, then
1. That should be documented *before* it is ever used in permanent code.
2. There should be code in the first production version that uses that 
fact and which would raise an error on other inputs.

> But there may be many call sites.  Perhaps xyzzy even implements part of
> a poorly-documented external API.  So can x be None?  There's no way to
> know short of checking all call sites, which may be impossible.  It may
> not even be feasible to check the *only* call site, if you're
> implementing somebody else's poorly documented closed-source API (a
> situation I came across at work only yesterday, when that situation
> resulted in a bug report).  If it's written this way, it's clear that it
> can't be None:
>
> def xyzzy(x):
>      if len(x) != 0:
>          print "yes"

I agree that the domain of a function should be defined from the start 
(and only expanded in the future). This means considering from the 
start, or certainly once it runs correctly for intended inputs, what 
will happen for other inputs. For instance, I believe functions defined 
on counts (0, 1, 2, ...) should be written to avoid infinite looping on 
other inputs, in particular, fractional and negative numbers.  I can 
imagine in theory that a gratuitous call to len() might be useful for 
defining an interface, but as explained above, I am dubious about that 
in practice and do not find thid example convincing.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

Thread

Re: checking if a list is empty Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-06 15:31 -0400
  Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-06 14:49 -0500
    Re: checking if a list is empty Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> - 2011-05-06 16:05 -0400
      Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-07 02:49 +0000
        Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-11 10:14 +0100
          Re: checking if a list is empty Laurent Claessens <moky.math@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 11:48 +0200
            Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-11 11:14 +0000
              Re: checking if a list is empty Laurent Claessens <moky.math@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 13:45 +0200
              Re: checking if a list is empty Laurent Claessens <moky.math@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 13:45 +0200
          Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-11 13:36 +0000
            Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-11 15:00 +0100
              Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-12 00:46 +1000
              Re: checking if a list is empty Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-11 08:53 -0700
              RE: checking if a list is empty "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmchase.com> - 2011-05-11 13:50 -0400
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-11 19:15 +0100
                RE: checking if a list is empty "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmchase.com> - 2011-05-11 14:59 -0400
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-11 20:08 +0100
                Re: checking if a list is empty Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-11 12:17 -0700
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-11 20:13 +0100
                Re: checking if a list is empty Ian <hobson42@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 22:02 +0100
                Re: checking if a list is empty Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2011-05-22 22:41 +0200
                Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-11 21:47 +0000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Steven Howe <howe.steven@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 15:09 -0700
                Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-11 17:38 -0500
                Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-11 18:12 -0500
                Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-12 01:07 +0000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-12 06:21 +0100
                Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-12 13:51 +1000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-12 07:02 -0700
                Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-13 00:13 +1000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Ian <hobson42@gmail.com> - 2011-05-22 10:20 +0100
              Re: checking if a list is empty Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-12 11:08 +1200
                Re: checking if a list is empty John J Lee <jjl@pobox.com> - 2011-05-21 15:46 +0100
                Re: checking if a list is empty Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2011-05-21 08:52 -0700
                Re: checking if a list is empty Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-21 16:11 -0400
                Re: checking if a list is empty rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-21 20:02 -0700
                Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-22 13:52 +1000
                Re: checking if a list is empty rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-21 21:32 -0700
                Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-22 15:16 +1000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-22 01:02 +0000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-22 12:56 +1000
    Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-05-06 13:46 -0700
    Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 10:51 +1000
    Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-07 08:28 +0000
      Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-07 22:50 -0500
        Re: checking if a list is empty Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-07 21:57 -0700
          Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-11 11:47 +0100
            Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-11 13:45 +0000
              Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-11 15:34 +0100
                Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-11 16:26 +0000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-11 19:05 +0100
                RE: checking if a list is empty "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmchase.com> - 2011-05-11 14:44 -0400
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-11 20:26 +0100
                Learning new languages (was: checking if a list is empty) Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2011-05-12 06:37 +0300
                Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-11 19:05 +0000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-11 21:42 +0000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-12 07:23 +0100
                Re: checking if a list is empty Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 10:31 -0600
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-11 18:46 +0100
            Re: checking if a list is empty "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2011-05-11 10:33 -0400
              Re: checking if a list is empty Redcat <redcat@catfolks.net> - 2011-05-11 15:31 +0000
              Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-11 18:44 +0100
              Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-11 16:24 -0500
                Re: checking if a list is empty alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 20:31 -0700
                Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-11 22:53 -0500
                Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-12 06:13 +0000
                Re: checking if a list is empty "rurpy@yahoo.com" <rurpy@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-12 10:42 -0700
                Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-13 14:41 -0500
                Re: checking if a list is empty Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-13 14:21 -0600
                Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-13 19:48 -0500
                Re: checking if a list is empty Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-13 19:52 -0600
                Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-13 23:47 -0500
                Re: checking if a list is empty Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-14 00:14 -0600
                Re: checking if a list is empty Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-14 14:32 +1200
                Re: checking if a list is empty Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-14 14:26 +1200
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-12 07:13 +0100
                Re: checking if a list is empty Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-12 16:46 +1000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-12 08:28 +0100
                Re: checking if a list is empty Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-12 17:37 +1000
                Re: checking if a list is empty "D'Arcy J.M. Cain" <darcy@druid.net> - 2011-05-12 01:49 -0400
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-12 07:21 +0100
                Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-12 22:16 +1000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-12 13:43 +0100
                Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-12 23:20 +1000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-13 09:47 +0100
        Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-08 14:07 +0000
          Re: checking if a list is empty Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2011-05-08 18:59 +0300
          Re: checking if a list is empty Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-08 18:41 -0400
          Re: checking if a list is empty Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 21:31 -0600
          Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-08 22:33 -0500
            Re: checking if a list is empty Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 22:34 -0600
              Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-09 16:58 -0500
                Re: checking if a list is empty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-09 23:34 +0000
                Re: checking if a list is empty Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-10 09:54 +1000
                Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-09 19:10 -0500
                Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-09 19:19 -0500
            Re: checking if a list is empty James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-05-09 14:46 +1000
          Re: checking if a list is empty harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-08 22:56 -0500
          Re: checking if a list is empty Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-09 17:30 -0400
          Re: checking if a list is empty Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-12 03:49 +0000

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