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Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty

Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Date 2013-02-10 16:25 -0800
References (1 earlier) <5115c455$0$6574$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <d405822d-2252-4a85-8ab2-38ca88963d91@googlegroups.com> <CAPTjJmrCK+LGo5ijg6S0p2q1jHKt-bFfuOZqFm3ZtuACOPaSdw@mail.gmail.com> <CAMjeLr_4Udj+LN8B7Wmjw9XVEx7VSVG7Kxu3cp4GA5Lo1tVhig@mail.gmail.com> <mailman.1579.1360503028.2939.python-list@python.org>
Subject Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty
From Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>
Message-ID <mailman.1611.1360542357.2939.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Sunday, February 10, 2013 7:30:00 AM UTC-6, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> On 10 February 2013 04:53, Mark Janssen wrote:
> > [...]
> > I have to agree with Rick, I think requiring the user to explicitly
> > create a new object, which is already a good and widely-used practice,
> > should be the Only One Way to Do It.
> 
> Why should I copy a potentially large data structure just to iterate
> over it in reverse order? 

That's a good question, and the answer is: "Only a fool would make a copy of ANY data structure only to simply iterate over it; be it forwards or backwards or sideways". 

> And why on earth would you want to remove
> the more efficient ways of doing this?

Well these "ways"(sic) might be more efficient, at this time, because the Python developers have defined them to be. This could be changed if they would drop the aversion to true OOP paradigm.

To make this work properly you would need to optimize the constructor of the sequence object. If the user presents the seq object (say for example a list) with variable that points to an already existing list like:

py> a = [1,2,3]
py> for x in list(a).reverse():
...     do_something

Python will not actually create a copy of the list because that would be foolish! Python would instead ITERATE over the existing object transparently. It's called OPTIMIZING CODE! By doing this we gain many things:

  * We don't have these foolish "mutate"<->"copy mutate"
    method "pairs" like: "seq.reverse()" and
    "seq.reversed()"
  
  * We are writing maintainable code by explicitly calling
    "Sequence(seq).mutate()". The intent becomes obvious
    even though Python may "optimize" our intentions "behind
    the scenes".
  
> > Guessing method names is far suboptimal to this simple, easy idiom.
> 
> There is no guessing. If the object has a __reverse__ method then it
> specifically advertises that it knows how to create an iterator that
> gives its values in reverse order. Otherwise __len__ and __getitem__
> are used.

Really. 

And you know that simply from intuiting a seemingly unrelated method? Wow, i'd bet the detectives of many municipalities would love to rent some of your powers. What sort of esoteric rule book are you reading from my friend?

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Thread

LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 17:50 -0800
  Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-09 14:36 +1100
    Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-09 19:54 -0800
      Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 15:20 +1100
      Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-02-09 20:53 -0800
        Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-11 01:29 +1100
          Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-02-10 14:03 -0500
            Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-11 11:11 +1100
          Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 13:28 -0800
            Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-11 11:10 +1100
              Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 17:14 -0800
          Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 08:51 +1100
          Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 14:01 -0800
      Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-10 03:39 -0500
        Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 10:45 -0800
          Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-10 16:44 -0500
          Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-11 11:11 +1100
        Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 10:45 -0800
      Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-10 22:29 +1100
        Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 00:24 +1100
          Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-11 01:00 +1100
        Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-02-10 07:52 -0600
        Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 15:59 -0800
          Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-02-10 18:12 -0600
            Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 17:24 -0800
            Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 17:24 -0800
          Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-11 11:36 +1100
            Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-02-11 02:03 +0000
            Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 04:53 -0800
              Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-12 00:27 +1100
                Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 20:55 -0800
                Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 21:28 -0800
                Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-12 12:46 -0800
                Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-12 12:46 -0800
                Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 20:55 -0800
          Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 18:05 -0800
            Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-11 07:19 +0000
            Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 18:24 +1100
            Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-11 07:35 +0000
            Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Tim Chase <tim@thechases.com> - 2013-02-11 06:04 -0600
            Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2013-02-11 19:07 +0200
      Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 13:30 +0000
        Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 16:25 -0800
          Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-11 11:42 +1100
        Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 16:25 -0800
      Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 10:45 -0800
    Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2013-02-10 06:33 -0800
  Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-09 15:51 +1100
    Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 17:56 -0800
      Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-12 19:06 +1100
  Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Neil Hodgson <nhodgson@iinet.net.au> - 2013-02-10 20:53 +1100
    Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-10 22:30 +1100
    Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-10 10:55 -0800
      Re: LangWart: Method congestion from mutate multiplicty Neil Hodgson <nhodgson@iinet.net.au> - 2013-02-11 08:57 +1100

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