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Groups > linux.debian.vote > #4789
| From | Micha Lenk <micha@debian.org> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | linux.debian.vote |
| Subject | Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion |
| Date | 2024-06-23 21:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ISAUN-52Wq-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink) |
| References | <IRUVz-4BnQ-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <ISfnj-4OdL-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <ISAi5-52qx-3@gated-at.bofh.it> |
| Organization | linux.* mail to news gateway |
Hi Ian,
Am 23.06.24 um 20:32 schrieb Ian Jackson:
> Micha Lenk writes ("Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion"):
>> In general our traditional approach of handling source packages is,
>> we upload upstream's source achive plus our modifications (patches)
>> and instructions how to build it (the packaging). Our tooling
>> (basically dpkg-source) reference all these from a Debian source
>> control file, the .dsc file.
>
> This is the "Debian source packages in 1993" slide from my 2023 talk.
> This was true, once. Nowadays, for most packages, this is a pretence.
>
> Most people maintain their packages in git. Many upstreams regard git
> as canonical, and publish tarballs not at all, or only as a
> concession. The proportion of software for which this is true is
> steadily rising. Many teams (including of serious, important and
> longstanding packages) work only in git. The Debian Xen team take
> upstream signed git tags as their input and work entirely in git.
Yet our tooling and official workflows don't work that way. And when
describing the current state, I definitely didn't and do not intend to
say that it should stay like that. I hope that was clear from later
parts of my mail anyways.
>> From what I understood so far, the overall promise tag2upload tries
>> to make is to simplify package maintenance to an extent that we
>> offload the separation of the patches and the packaging from the
>> upstream source to Git.
>
> I don't think this is the right way to look at it.
>
> tag2upload formalises and standardises and streamlines the *existing*
> git-based workflows which are in use in Debian today.
Okay, but couldn't the existing git-based workflows get formalized and
standardized without changing the way how you upload to Debian? Why is
it so important to tie the support for so many workflows to the method
how the upload is done?
>> In the tag2upload concept, the uploaded files referenced by the
>> .dsc file and the .dsc file itself are implicitly considered a
>> second class citizen of the Debian ecosystem
>
> The tag2upload system is part of a *parallel* git-based system for
> handling source code. The intent is that all source packages will be
> available *both* ways (and can be edited using *both* views).
Yes, this I understood, and that property makes it definitely useful to
most developers from the start. It must have been a lot of work to get
this far.
> What I am trying to do is put git on the same footing as .dscs: you'll
> be able to use both, with the same level of fidelity and officialness.
... which deserves my full support. Thank you!
>> Still the tag2upload proponents dismiss a suggestion to also take
>> changing the source format or tooling into account as an unfeasible
>> "boil-the-ocean approach" (see [8]).
>
> People have been thinking about changing source formats, or making
> other kinds of more radical changes, for many many years.
>
> Certainly since at least 2013, when Joey Hess and I and some others we
> came up with a plan to improve things that we thought would be
> workable and deployable, unlike the attempts (and suggestions) that
> had been made so far. We've come a long way already, and
> significantly improved some maintainers' workflows.
It is possible that I don't have all the needed background here. Would
you mind to share a few pointers that outline how these plans worked
out? I am genuinely interested in anything that could explain to me why
any previous attempts of making Git a first class citizen in the Debian
ecosystem didn't succeed so far. This could help me to get a better
understanding of your long way, and maybe shed some light on why you're
insisting so starkly on some of the tag2upload design decisions.
Cheers,
Micha
Back to linux.debian.vote | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar
Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-06-22 00:30 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2024-06-22 07:40 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2024-06-22 15:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2024-06-22 15:40 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Micha Lenk <micha@debian.org> - 2024-06-22 22:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-06-23 04:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-06-23 10:40 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-06-23 16:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-06-23 17:30 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-06-23 17:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-06-23 18:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-06-23 20:00 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-06-23 20:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Mathias Behrle <mbehrle@debian.org> - 2024-06-23 20:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2024-06-24 03:30 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-06-24 10:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Aigars Mahinovs <aigarius@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 16:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-06-24 17:40 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-06-24 19:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-06-25 09:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2024-06-25 12:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2024-06-25 12:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Bart Martens <bartm@debian.org> - 2024-06-25 20:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Aigars Mahinovs <aigarius@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 20:40 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-06-24 21:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Aigars Mahinovs <aigarius@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 21:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-06-24 22:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Aigars Mahinovs <aigarius@gmail.com> - 2024-06-24 23:40 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-06-25 12:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-06-25 18:00 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-06-25 19:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2024-06-26 11:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-06-25 19:40 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Bdale Garbee <bdale@gag.com> - 2024-06-25 20:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-06-25 20:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Aigars Mahinovs <aigarius@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 20:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2024-06-25 22:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Didier 'OdyX' Raboud <odyx@debian.org> - 2024-06-26 11:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-06-26 06:30 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-06-26 07:30 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2024-06-25 11:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2024-06-25 14:30 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-06-24 18:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-06-25 02:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Brian May <bam@debian.org> - 2024-06-25 03:00 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-06-25 06:30 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion [and 1 more messages] Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2024-06-25 12:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion [and 1 more messages] Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2024-06-30 20:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion [and 1 more messages] Aigars Mahinovs <aigarius@debian.org> - 2024-06-30 22:00 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion [and 1 more messages] Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2024-07-01 06:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion [and 1 more messages] Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-07-01 08:00 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion [and 1 more messages] Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2024-07-01 08:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-06-25 08:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-06-25 23:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-06-26 11:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> - 2024-06-28 07:40 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2024-06-26 04:40 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-06-25 09:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2024-06-26 14:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Jun MO <royclark086@gmail.com> - 2024-06-25 20:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2024-06-25 20:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2024-06-25 21:10 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2024-06-28 04:50 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2024-06-26 05:00 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2024-06-23 20:40 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Micha Lenk <micha@debian.org> - 2024-06-23 21:20 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2024-06-24 11:40 +0200
Re: Summary of the current state of the tag2upload discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2024-06-24 14:40 +0200
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