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Groups > comp.lang.python > #22013

Re: Python is readable (OT)

From Jon Clements <joncle@googlemail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Subject Re: Python is readable (OT)
Date 2012-03-22 04:18 -0700
Organization http://groups.google.com
Message-ID <33536194.2563.1332415082529.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynlt15> (permalink)
References (12 earlier) <mailman.862.1332346941.3037.python-list@python.org> <f9fa2ba5-23e9-4bf7-9431-44154ad63480@m10g2000pbk.googlegroups.com> <mailman.869.1332353213.3037.python-list@python.org> <32b8c4ae-2509-43df-abf0-0fb308be398f@oq7g2000pbb.googlegroups.com> <4f6ae931$0$29883$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

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On Thursday, 22 March 2012 08:56:17 UTC, Steven D&#39;Aprano  wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:35:16 -0700, Steve Howell wrote:
> 
> > On Mar 21, 11:06 am, Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
[snip].
> 
> Different programming languages are good for different things because 
> they have been designed to work in different problem/solution spaces. 
> Although I dislike C with a passion, I do recognise that it is good for 
> when the programmer needs fine control over the smallest details. It is, 
> after all, a high-level assembler. Likewise for Forth, which lets you 
> modify the compiler and language as you go.
> 
> Some languages are optimized for the compiler, some for the writer, and 
> some for the reader. So are optimized for numeric work, others for 
> database access. Some are Jack-Of-All-Trades. Each language encourages 
> its own idioms and ways of thinking about programming. 
> 
> When it comes to programming, I say, let a thousand voices shout out. 
> Instead of imagining a single language so wonderful that every other 
> language is overshadowed and forgotten, imagine that the single language 
> is the next Java, or C, or even for that matter Python, but whatever it 
> is, it's not ideal for the problems you care about, or the way you think 
> about them. Not so attractive now, is it?
> 
> 
> > The optimistic view is that there will be some kind of inflection point
> > around 2020 or so.  I could imagine a perfect storm of good things
> > happening, like convergence on a single browser platform,
> 
> You call that a perfect storm of good things. I call that sort of 
> intellectual and software monoculture a nightmare.
> 
> I want a dozen browsers, not one of which is so common that web designers 
> can design for it and ignore the rest, not one browser so common that 
> nobody dares try anything new.
> 
> 
> > nearly
> > complete migration to Python 3, further maturity of JVM-based languages,
> > etc., where the bar gets a little higher from what people expect from
> > languages.  Instead of fighting semicolons and braces, we start thinking
> > bigger.  It could also be some sort of hardware advance, like screen
> > resolutions that are so amazing they let us completely rethink our views
> > on terseness, punctuation, code organization, etc.
> 
> And what of those with poor eyesight, or the blind? Are they to be 
> excluded from your "bigger" brave new world?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steven



On Thursday, 22 March 2012 08:56:17 UTC, Steven D&#39;Aprano  wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:35:16 -0700, Steve Howell wrote:
> 
> > On Mar 21, 11:06 am, Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> As for syntax, we have a lot of "real" domain specific languages, such
> >> as English, math and logic. They are vetted, understood and useful
> >> outside the context of programming.  We should approach the discussion
> >> of language syntax from the perspective of trying to define a unified
> >> syntactical structure for real these DSLs.    Ideally it would allow
> >> representation of things in a familiar way where possible, while
> >> providing an elegant mechanism for descriptions that cut across domains
> >> and eliminating redundancy/ambiguity.  This is clearly possible, though
> >> a truly successful attempt would probably be a work of art for the
> >> ages.
> > 
> > If I'm reading you correctly, you're expressing frustration with the
> > state of language syntax unification in 2012.  You mention language in a
> > broad sense (not just programming languages, but also English, math,
> > logic, etc.), but even in the narrow context of programming languages,
> > the current state of the world is pretty chaotic.
> 
> And this is a good thing. Programming languages are chaotic because the 
> universe of programming problems is chaotic, and the strategies available 
> to solve those problems are many and varied.
> 
> Different programming languages are good for different things because 
> they have been designed to work in different problem/solution spaces. 
> Although I dislike C with a passion, I do recognise that it is good for 
> when the programmer needs fine control over the smallest details. It is, 
> after all, a high-level assembler. Likewise for Forth, which lets you 
> modify the compiler and language as you go.
> 
> Some languages are optimized for the compiler, some for the writer, and 
> some for the reader. So are optimized for numeric work, others for 
> database access. Some are Jack-Of-All-Trades. Each language encourages 
> its own idioms and ways of thinking about programming. 
> 
> When it comes to programming, I say, let a thousand voices shout out. 
> Instead of imagining a single language so wonderful that every other 
> language is overshadowed and forgotten, imagine that the single language 
> is the next Java, or C, or even for that matter Python, but whatever it 
> is, it's not ideal for the problems you care about, or the way you think 
> about them. Not so attractive now, is it?
> 
> 
> > The optimistic view is that there will be some kind of inflection point
> > around 2020 or so.  I could imagine a perfect storm of good things
> > happening, like convergence on a single browser platform,
> 
> You call that a perfect storm of good things. I call that sort of 
> intellectual and software monoculture a nightmare.
> 
> I want a dozen browsers, not one of which is so common that web designers 
> can design for it and ignore the rest, not one browser so common that 
> nobody dares try anything new.
> 
> 
> > nearly
> > complete migration to Python 3, further maturity of JVM-based languages,
> > etc., where the bar gets a little higher from what people expect from
> > languages.  Instead of fighting semicolons and braces, we start thinking
> > bigger.  It could also be some sort of hardware advance, like screen
> > resolutions that are so amazing they let us completely rethink our views
> > on terseness, punctuation, code organization, etc.
> 
> And what of those with poor eyesight, or the blind? Are they to be 
> excluded from your "bigger" brave new world?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steven

Completely not related to this discussion, but, I just have to say to Steven, I could not have expressed that better. 

+1 QOTW (albeit a long one)

Jon.

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                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-16 13:10 +0100
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                Re: Python is readable Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-03-16 13:08 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-16 16:28 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-03-16 17:53 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-16 18:50 +0000
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                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-17 21:54 +0100
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                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-21 00:57 +0100
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                Re: Python is readable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-17 01:09 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-03-19 11:26 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-19 11:51 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-03-19 12:53 +0000
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                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-17 21:23 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-18 01:46 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-19 12:44 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-19 15:27 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-21 00:27 +0100
              Re: Python is readable Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2012-03-15 16:41 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2012-03-16 09:30 +0000
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          Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-19 09:02 +1100
            Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-19 01:23 +0000
              Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-19 15:33 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-19 13:37 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-20 12:20 +0000
          Re: Python is readable alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-03-18 20:15 -0700
            Re: Python is readable Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2012-03-18 21:14 -0700
          Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-20 12:55 -0400
            Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-20 17:48 +0000
          Re: Python is readable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-20 14:09 -0400
          Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-20 15:28 -0400
            Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-21 00:22 +0000
              Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-20 18:28 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-03-21 13:28 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-20 19:44 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 15:16 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-20 21:58 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 16:40 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-20 23:52 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 17:59 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2012-03-21 00:16 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 00:57 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 19:15 +1100
                Re: Re: Python is readable Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-03-21 11:22 -0500
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 09:30 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 14:06 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 18:35 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-22 08:56 +0000
                Re: Python is readable (OT) Jon Clements <joncle@googlemail.com> - 2012-03-22 04:18 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-22 08:47 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-22 17:18 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-22 14:26 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-29 13:44 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 14:37 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-30 01:42 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 22:26 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-30 03:36 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 00:38 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-30 10:47 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 09:46 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 03:20 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 14:15 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-03-30 20:30 +0000
                Re: Python is readable alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-04-01 20:38 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 05:29 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 15:55 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 07:20 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-30 22:07 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-04-03 08:06 +1000
                Re: Python is readable Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2012-03-30 16:51 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 16:58 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 08:45 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 19:01 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-31 00:03 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 19:05 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 10:43 -0400
                Re: Python is readable rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 11:17 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-30 09:02 -0700
                Re: Python is readable alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-04-01 20:30 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-01 21:01 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-29 23:44 -0700
                RE: Python is readable "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-30 16:40 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-30 00:27 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 06:08 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 00:17 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-22 10:29 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-22 09:12 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-22 17:44 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-22 19:42 -0700
                Re: Python is readable rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-03-22 20:20 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-22 21:16 -0700
                Re: Python is readable MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-03-23 04:43 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-22 23:58 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 00:20 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-22 08:33 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 06:21 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-22 15:33 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 06:48 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 06:49 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-21 23:34 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 17:54 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 17:25 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-31 09:59 -0700
              Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 00:55 -0400
          Re: Python is readable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-20 16:01 -0400
          Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-20 16:34 -0400
            Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-21 00:01 +0000
          Re: Python is readable Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 17:15 +1100
  Re: Python is readable Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-03-15 13:51 -0400
  Re: Python is readable Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2012-03-15 20:54 +0000
    Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-16 02:03 +0000
  Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-16 01:53 +0000
    Re: Python is readable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-16 02:16 +0000
    Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-16 13:55 +0100
      Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-16 16:25 +0000
        Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-16 17:58 +0100
        RE: Python is readable "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-16 17:01 +0000
  Re: Python is readable alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2012-03-18 18:19 +0000

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