Re: Constants and undefined behavior

From	cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Constants and undefined behavior
Date	2026-06-13 12:02 +0000
Organization	PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID	<110jgsg$4ll$1@reader1.panix.com> (permalink)
References	<10v7b32$2u85v$1@dont-email.me> <110dm6p$17r3s$1@dont-email.me> <110ekic$1naub$6@dont-email.me> <110ghmv$21vi3$1@dont-email.me>

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In article <110ghmv$21vi3$1@dont-email.me>,
David Brown  <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>[snip]
>As for my '"modern compilers are evil" crowd' comment, there are people 
>(not anyone involved in this discussion) who really do fall into that 
>camp.  I've seen people who are experienced and respected developers 
>make all sorts of accusations to compiler developers, claiming they are 
>only interested in high scores on synthetic benchmarks and directly 
>insulting their motivations and integrity, blaming them for "breaking" 
>their code that relied on the effects of some kinds of UB.  It is always 
>frustrating when you have code that works fine with one compiler 
>version, but using another compiler results in failure due to UB in your 
>code - especially if writing correct code gives inefficient results with 
>the first compiler.  And it's fine to say you'd be happier if a 
>particular thing that is UB in C were not UB - but it is unreasonable to 
>blame compiler developers for implementing the language as it is defined.

Eh...I think those people have a point.

Note, I don't think that "modern compilers are evil" (I mean,
wow, that's a strong word) and I certainly do not think it is
appropriate to malign the people who write them personally over
what one does with code.

But I _do_ think it is fair to say that UB is very easy to fall
into in C, that programs that have worked correctly (insofar as
their intended behavior as written) for years can suddenly fail
because latent UB is treated differently in a point revision of
a compiler, and that that (as you point out) can be incredibly
frustrating for the authors.

Regehr called out a dichotomy with UB: programmers using a
language hate it; compiler writers love it.

Here's my own vignette: I was chatting with a friend who works
on LLVM and clang some time ago.  I said, "I don't want UB" and
he replied, "no, you really do."  I asked him what he meant and
he responded that I wanted a compiler that is capable of
optimizing my program; "sure, but I still don't want UB."  We
went on for a bit, and it became clear that he saw UB as _the_
vehicle for unlocking optimization.

I realized that we were not speaking the same language _at all_.
He and I both wanted a language where we could write programs
that yield efficient object code.  He saw UB as essential for
that; but what I want is a language with well-defined semantics
that can be aggressively optimized.

That, I think, is the tension: there was a fundamental breakdown
in communication between the users of the language, and those
defining and implementing it.  My subjective sense is that in
the past few years things are getting somewhat better, but it is
hard to evolve something as critical and widely used as C.

>I am not in any way saying that critics of aspects of C (the language, 
>the standards, or compiler implementations) should be dismissed or 
>despised - merely that the example of loop elimination leading to UB and 
>unexpected results is regularly used as "evidence" by those that hold 
>extreme positions about C, despite it being very unrealistic for the 
>issue to cause problems in real coding practice.

The kernel I am working on has about 5 million lines of code.
That code has been evolving for 40 years; some of it predates
the ISO standards and even the ANSI standard.  It has been
updated for newer compilers, sure, but in some places the
treatment is surface-level: using ISO-style function prototypes
and definition syntax, for example.  But deep problems remain in
parts, and contraints on engineering resources couple with
economic and business pressures so that it's not going to get
cleaned up any time soon.  I'm sure there is UB in it; in fact,
I know there is.  But them's the breaks; and yet, customers are
using it in production.  Because of this, upgrading toolchains
is laborious and complex, and takes a lot of time, and new
compilers are (rightly) viewed with suspicion.  That is not a
great situation, but I don't think anyone is angry at the
compiler people over it.

And just as it's not acceptable to blame compiler writers for
implementating the language as it is defined, it's not really
acceptable to blame programmers either; some of the people who
put the UB there are (literally) dead, and there's just not
enough time in the day to go clean it all up.  I wish there was
more compassion for that.

As said earlier, C is what it is.  I suspect that it will
continue to make incremental improvements, but we're basically
stuck with what we have.

	- Dan C.

Thread

this girl calls c ugly fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-27 19:53 +0200
  Re: this girl calls c ugly fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-27 20:15 +0200
    Re: this girl calls c ugly BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-05-27 18:49 -0500
      Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-28 04:53 +0000
        Re: this girl calls c ugly BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-05-28 02:35 -0500
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            Re: this girl calls c ugly BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-05-29 05:20 -0500
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                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-30 16:36 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-05-30 15:48 -0500
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        Re: this girl calls c ugly "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-28 12:47 -0700
          Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 09:56 +0200
            Re: this girl calls c ugly "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-05-29 11:00 -0700
      Re: this girl calls c ugly fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2026-05-28 17:12 +0200
        Re: this girl calls c ugly BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-05-28 14:07 -0500
          Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-28 23:54 +0000
            Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 10:02 +0200
              Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-29 12:19 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 14:46 +0200
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                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 17:15 +0200
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                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 18:48 +0200
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                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-29 20:49 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 22:03 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-29 13:56 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-29 22:54 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-29 15:52 -0700
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                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-30 02:03 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-29 19:02 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-30 12:12 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-30 12:29 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-30 13:56 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-30 16:43 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-31 03:37 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-30 19:53 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 12:16 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-31 11:47 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 12:55 +0200
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                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-31 11:49 +0200
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                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-31 13:18 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-31 10:24 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-31 17:35 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-31 12:46 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-31 22:24 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-31 18:26 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 08:28 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-31 15:54 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 08:39 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 02:33 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 11:48 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-06-02 06:37 -0400
                Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-02 05:06 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 16:28 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-04 03:37 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 16:31 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 13:36 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 23:49 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 18:04 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-06 03:10 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 23:50 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 02:20 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 12:39 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 23:15 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 18:51 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-09 09:46 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 15:07 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-09 01:25 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-06-09 18:29 -0400
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 16:01 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-10 12:36 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 16:49 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-11 15:20 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 18:08 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-11 16:30 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 20:52 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-12 02:20 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-13 14:57 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-06 15:47 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-06 16:36 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-06 16:43 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-06 17:41 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-05 10:41 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 10:49 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-06 16:15 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-06 18:06 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-07 22:34 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-08 23:05 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-09 10:19 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 15:12 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-10 14:37 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-10 18:30 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 14:55 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-10 23:32 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 14:47 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-11 08:56 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-11 11:38 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-11 14:05 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 15:38 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-11 23:07 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 17:43 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-12 02:02 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 17:34 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-12 10:58 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-12 12:27 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-13 12:36 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-13 12:03 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-13 12:02 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-13 12:13 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-13 12:44 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-14 17:22 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-13 18:32 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-14 14:33 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-14 22:02 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 13:29 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-12 02:08 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-12 11:02 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 17:45 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-10 15:11 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-10 22:44 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 16:19 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-11 11:50 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 16:28 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-11 23:46 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 18:29 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-12 01:54 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-12 11:37 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 05:35 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-02 06:29 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 16:10 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 15:29 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-05 06:41 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 11:24 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-08 08:35 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 17:33 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-09 00:54 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-09 10:08 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 13:40 -0700
                Meaning of "expression" Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 14:05 -0700
                Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-09 15:17 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-09 14:53 +0100
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-09 16:30 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-09 17:13 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 15:34 -0700
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-10 09:04 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-10 11:10 +0100
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-10 13:29 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 03:17 -0700
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-10 13:43 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 14:08 -0700
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-11 09:10 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 20:29 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-12 12:55 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-13 15:01 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 20:12 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-06-11 15:13 -0400
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-12 00:37 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-11 23:05 +0000
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-12 01:18 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 17:41 -0700
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-06-11 20:41 -0400
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") tTh <tth@none.invalid> - 2026-06-09 19:27 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-09 19:19 +0100
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 15:22 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-06 03:22 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 23:56 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-07 13:37 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-07 15:09 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 02:33 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-08 00:16 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 12:41 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 17:37 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-09 16:05 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 13:59 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 13:05 +0000
                Parentheses (was: this girl calls c ugly) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-02 14:38 +0100
                Re: Parentheses (was: this girl calls c ugly) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 15:19 +0000
                Re: Parentheses antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-03 22:30 +0000
                Re: Parentheses Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-03 16:24 -0700
                Re: Parentheses antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-04 02:03 +0000
                Re: Parentheses Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 01:12 +0100
                Re: Parentheses antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-04 01:58 +0000
                Re: Parentheses Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 11:37 +0100
                Re: Parentheses cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 10:51 +0000
                Re: Parentheses Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 12:47 +0100
                Re: Parentheses Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 14:57 +0200
                Re: Parentheses cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 14:31 +0000
                [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 15:54 +0200
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-02 15:19 +0100
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 15:19 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 17:39 +0200
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 16:36 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-02 21:33 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 14:43 -0700
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-02 17:08 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 19:19 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-04 00:11 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 15:39 -0700
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-03 13:14 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-02 15:10 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 15:31 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-31 10:15 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-31 16:29 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-31 03:45 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-31 04:02 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-31 09:04 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-31 18:11 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-31 19:34 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-31 19:10 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-01 11:12 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 12:36 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 14:26 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-04 02:34 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 12:40 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-04 14:35 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 14:18 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 15:47 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 15:57 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-04 16:27 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 16:46 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 20:15 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-04 20:54 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 20:29 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 14:06 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 22:47 +0100
                Famous (hopefully last) words [on this topic] Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-05 00:27 +0200
                Re: Famous (hopefully last) words [on this topic] Bad Post <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-05 01:20 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 16:09 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-05 00:44 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 17:26 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-05 12:58 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 14:27 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 02:47 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-05 00:53 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-05 11:04 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-05 05:34 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-06 03:45 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-06 03:44 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-06 07:39 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 15:25 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-05 09:29 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-05 12:39 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-05 15:42 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-05 16:50 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 11:09 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-05 20:29 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 16:18 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 17:23 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 16:47 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 19:57 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 20:34 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 22:28 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 21:58 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2026-06-04 23:25 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 02:49 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 19:47 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-04 21:04 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2026-06-04 19:13 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-05 10:34 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 12:11 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-06-04 16:33 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 14:16 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 00:02 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 18:36 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 02:54 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-05 05:49 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 11:01 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-05 11:53 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2026-06-04 18:45 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 20:19 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 20:31 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 20:41 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 20:49 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 00:03 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-05 00:18 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 03:02 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-05 14:04 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-06 03:49 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-06 15:13 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-06 17:53 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 11:59 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 15:21 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-04 06:38 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 09:52 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 02:42 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 12:50 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-01 11:47 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 12:55 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 14:39 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 15:11 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 08:41 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 02:07 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 11:38 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 05:01 -0700
                It is not futile to change the subject line (Was: this girl calls c ugly) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-06-02 12:39 +0000
                Re: It is not futile to change the subject line (Was: this girl calls c ugly) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-06-02 12:42 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 11:46 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-02 11:09 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 05:25 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-02 14:20 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 15:12 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-02 04:16 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-01 15:23 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 16:06 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-01 23:24 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 11:35 +0200
                Operator precedence in other (non-C, but "C-like") languages (Was: something about a girl) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-06-02 12:36 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-01 11:04 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 14:04 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-01 18:48 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-01 21:04 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 09:17 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 09:09 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 12:07 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 14:37 +0200
                Microcontroller software stacks (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-02 15:06 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-04 03:58 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly dave_thompson_2@comcast.net - 2026-06-06 19:02 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-31 19:11 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-31 16:08 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-31 16:32 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-31 17:12 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-30 14:07 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 18:10 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-29 19:18 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 22:17 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-29 21:47 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-29 15:57 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 22:34 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-29 23:18 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-30 01:26 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-30 04:25 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-30 12:01 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-31 00:29 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-31 10:59 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-01 00:33 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-01 02:26 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-31 13:24 +0200
          Re: this girl calls c ugly Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2026-05-29 08:09 +0200
            Re: this girl calls c ugly BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-05-29 04:15 -0500
              Re: this girl calls c ugly Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2026-05-29 14:58 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-05-30 01:04 -0500
            Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-29 23:20 +0000
              Re: this girl calls c ugly Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2026-05-30 11:18 +0200

csiph-web