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Groups > comp.lang.c > #399894

Re: Constants and undefined behavior

From cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Constants and undefined behavior
Date 2026-06-11 11:38 +0000
Organization PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID <110e6nr$pug$1@reader1.panix.com> (permalink)
References <10v7b32$2u85v$1@dont-email.me> <110bsqd$9ab$1@reader1.panix.com> <110cm0v$116qm$2@kst.eternal-september.org> <110dm6p$17r3s$1@dont-email.me>

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In article <110dm6p$17r3s$1@dont-email.me>,
David Brown  <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>On 10/06/2026 23:47, Keith Thompson wrote:
>
>> Right.  ("for (;;);" in the original program does not.)
>> 
>> Note that the C++ special rule applies only when the condition is
>> equivalent to a constant `true` and the body of the loop is empty.
>> An implementation can "assume" that any other loop will eventually
>> finish.
>> 
>> The rule in C is (6.8.6.1p4):
>> 
>>      An iteration statement may be assumed by the implementation
>>      to terminate if its controlling expression is not a constant
>>      expression, and none of the following operations are performed
>>      in its body, controlling expression or (in the case of a for
>>      statement) its expression-3
>>          — input/output operations
>>          — accessing a volatile object
>>          — synchronization or atomic operations.
>> 
>> `for (;;)` is treated as having a constant controlling expression.
>> 
>> This covers more cases than the C++ rule.
>> 
>> I dislike it for most of the same reasonss.  It should be phrased
>> in terms of the permitted behavior of a program, not what an
>> implementation is allowed to "assume".
>> 
>> In addition to that, I dislike the whole idea.  I think it's
>> intended to enable optimizations, but it means that for this
>> contrived program:
>> 
>> #include <stdio.h>
>> int main(void) {
>>      bool keep_going = true;
>>      while (keep_going) {
>>          keep_going = true;
>>      }
>>      puts("never reached");
>> }
>> 
>> the implementation is allowed to "assume" that the loop eventually
>> terminates.  It's not clear what permissions the implementation is being
>> given if the assumption is violated.  I think the program could legally
>> print "never reached", but if violating the assumption implies undefined
>> behavior it could do anything.
>> 
>> A programmer could easily write a program similar to the above
>> and think that the meaning is perfectly clear, have it behave very
>> differently because of one obscure subclause in the standard.
>
>The idea of all this is given in a footnote in the C standards - "This 
>is intended to allow compiler transformations such as removal of empty 
>loops even when termination cannot be proven."
>
>The loop might originally have contained source code, but become empty 
>through pre-processing, or from other compiler transformations (such as 
>the compiler seeing that the "keep_going" variable is not volatile and 
>its value is never used, so assignments to it can be elided, or moving 
>other things outside the loop body).

I suspect the original intent is as you said, to support removal
of "dead" loops where the body has been optimized away, or
excised using conditional compilation.  Something like,

    #ifdef DEBUG
    #define DOTHING true
    #else
    #define DOTHING false
    #endif

        ...
        for (int i = 0; i < n; i++) {
            if (DOTHING) {
                // Something complex here...    
            }
        }

If `DEBUG` is not defined in the preprocessor, the compiler has
license to elide the entire loop as part of dead code
elimination.

>A programmer /could/ write the "keep_going" loop you gave, and 
>mistakenly believe it to be infinite.  But is it likely?  In my 
>experience, infinite loops are generally very clearly written - either 
>as "for (;;)" loops or "while (true)" loops - or they are the result of 
>bugs in the code that accidentally run forever.  If the loop is 
>accidentally infinite, the programmer will already be expecting it to 
>run the code after the loop.
>
>Equally, I don't think it is likely that compilers will often be able to 
>use this rule to improve code generation - it would only help in a 
>situation where the loop's controlling expression is too complicated for 
>the compiler to be sure that it will terminate, but where the loop body 
>ends up effectively empty.  I doubt if that turns up often in real code 
>either.
>
>So while I agree that this kind of thing can lead to curiosities and 
>behaviour that seems counter-intuitive, and is popular with the "modern 
>compilers are evil" crowd, I really do not see it as an issue in 
>practice.  There are many other mistakes programmers can make, or UB 
>that they hit accidentally - this is a drop in the ocean IMHO.

As I understand it, primarily by reading the C++ problem report,
which covers both C and C++ for background, the idea is to
guarantee forward progress for programs that make use of
threads: consider cooperatively-scheduled green threads; a
programmer who inadvertantly creates an infinite loop shouldn't
be able to starve all threads for access to the CPU.

Personally, I don't think C should be in the business of doing
such things.  But it is what it is.

	- Dan C.

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        Re: this girl calls c ugly BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-05-28 14:07 -0500
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                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-30 13:56 +0100
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                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-31 17:35 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-31 12:46 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-31 22:24 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-31 18:26 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 08:28 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-31 15:54 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 08:39 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 02:33 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 11:48 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-06-02 06:37 -0400
                Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-02 05:06 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 16:28 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-04 03:37 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 16:31 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 13:36 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 23:49 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 18:04 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-06 03:10 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 23:50 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 02:20 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 12:39 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 23:15 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 18:51 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-09 09:46 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 15:07 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-09 01:25 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-06-09 18:29 -0400
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 16:01 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-10 12:36 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 16:49 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-11 15:20 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 18:08 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-11 16:30 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 20:52 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-12 02:20 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-06 15:47 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-06 16:36 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-06 16:43 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-06 17:41 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-05 10:41 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 10:49 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-06 16:15 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-06 18:06 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-07 22:34 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-08 23:05 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-09 10:19 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 15:12 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-10 14:37 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-10 18:30 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 14:55 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-10 23:32 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 14:47 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-11 08:56 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-11 11:38 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-11 14:05 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 15:38 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-11 23:07 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 17:43 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-12 02:02 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 17:34 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-12 10:58 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-12 12:27 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 13:29 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-12 02:08 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-12 11:02 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 17:45 +0200
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-10 15:11 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-10 22:44 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 16:19 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-11 11:50 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 16:28 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-11 23:46 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 18:29 -0700
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-12 01:54 +0000
                Re: Constants and undefined behavior David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-12 11:37 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 05:35 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-02 06:29 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 16:10 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 15:29 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-05 06:41 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 11:24 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-08 08:35 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 17:33 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-09 00:54 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-09 10:08 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 13:40 -0700
                Meaning of "expression" Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-08 14:05 -0700
                Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-09 15:17 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-09 14:53 +0100
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-09 16:30 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-09 17:13 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 15:34 -0700
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-10 09:04 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-10 11:10 +0100
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-10 13:29 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 03:17 -0700
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-10 13:43 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-10 14:08 -0700
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-11 09:10 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 20:29 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-12 12:55 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-11 20:12 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-06-11 15:13 -0400
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-12 00:37 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-11 23:05 +0000
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-12 01:18 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-11 17:41 -0700
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-06-11 20:41 -0400
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") tTh <tth@none.invalid> - 2026-06-09 19:27 +0200
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-09 19:19 +0100
                Re: Expression statements (was Re: Meaning of "expression") Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-09 15:22 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-06 03:22 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 23:56 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-07 13:37 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-07 15:09 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 02:33 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-08 00:16 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 12:41 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-08 17:37 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-09 16:05 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 13:59 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 13:05 +0000
                Parentheses (was: this girl calls c ugly) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-02 14:38 +0100
                Re: Parentheses (was: this girl calls c ugly) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 15:19 +0000
                Re: Parentheses antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-03 22:30 +0000
                Re: Parentheses Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-03 16:24 -0700
                Re: Parentheses antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-04 02:03 +0000
                Re: Parentheses Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 01:12 +0100
                Re: Parentheses antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-04 01:58 +0000
                Re: Parentheses Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 11:37 +0100
                Re: Parentheses cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 10:51 +0000
                Re: Parentheses Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 12:47 +0100
                Re: Parentheses Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 14:57 +0200
                Re: Parentheses cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 14:31 +0000
                [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 15:54 +0200
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-02 15:19 +0100
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 15:19 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 17:39 +0200
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 16:36 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-02 21:33 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 14:43 -0700
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-06-02 17:08 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 19:19 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-04 00:11 +0000
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 15:39 -0700
                Re: [OT] Fancy graphics (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-03 13:14 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-02 15:10 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 15:31 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-31 10:15 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-31 16:29 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-31 03:45 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-31 04:02 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-31 09:04 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-31 18:11 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-31 19:34 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-31 19:10 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-01 11:12 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 12:36 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 14:26 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-04 02:34 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 12:40 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-04 14:35 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 14:18 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 15:47 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 15:57 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-04 16:27 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 16:46 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 20:15 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-04 20:54 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 20:29 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 14:06 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 22:47 +0100
                Famous (hopefully last) words [on this topic] Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-05 00:27 +0200
                Re: Famous (hopefully last) words [on this topic] Bad Post <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-05 01:20 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 16:09 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-05 00:44 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 17:26 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-06-05 12:58 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 14:27 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 02:47 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-05 00:53 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-05 11:04 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-05 05:34 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-06 03:45 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-06 03:44 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-06 07:39 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 15:25 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-05 09:29 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-05 12:39 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-05 15:42 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-05 16:50 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 11:09 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-05 20:29 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 16:18 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 17:23 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 16:47 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 19:57 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 20:34 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-04 22:28 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 21:58 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> - 2026-06-04 23:25 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 02:49 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 19:47 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-04 21:04 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2026-06-04 19:13 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-05 10:34 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 12:11 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-06-04 16:33 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 14:16 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 00:02 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 18:36 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 02:54 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-05 05:49 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-05 11:01 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-05 11:53 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2026-06-04 18:45 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 20:19 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 20:31 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-04 20:41 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-04 20:49 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 00:03 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-05 00:18 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-05 03:02 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-05 14:04 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-06 03:49 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-06 15:13 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-06 17:53 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-04 11:59 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-04 15:21 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-04 06:38 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 09:52 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 02:42 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 12:50 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-01 11:47 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 12:55 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 14:39 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 15:11 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 08:41 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 02:07 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 11:38 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 05:01 -0700
                It is not futile to change the subject line (Was: this girl calls c ugly) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-06-02 12:39 +0000
                Re: It is not futile to change the subject line (Was: this girl calls c ugly) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-06-02 12:42 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 11:46 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-02 11:09 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 05:25 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-02 14:20 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-02 15:12 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-02 04:16 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-01 15:23 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-06-01 16:06 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-01 23:24 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-06-02 11:35 +0200
                Operator precedence in other (non-C, but "C-like") languages (Was: something about a girl) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2026-06-02 12:36 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-01 11:04 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-01 14:04 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-01 18:48 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-01 21:04 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 09:17 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 09:09 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-06-02 12:07 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-06-02 14:37 +0200
                Microcontroller software stacks (was Re: this girl calls c ugly) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-06-02 15:06 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-06-04 03:58 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly dave_thompson_2@comcast.net - 2026-06-06 19:02 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-05-31 19:11 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-31 16:08 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2026-05-31 16:32 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2026-05-31 17:12 -0700
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-30 14:07 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 18:10 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-29 19:18 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 22:17 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-29 21:47 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2026-05-29 15:57 -0400
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2026-05-29 22:34 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-29 23:18 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-30 01:26 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-30 04:25 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-30 12:01 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-31 00:29 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-05-31 10:59 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-06-01 00:33 +0000
                Re: this girl calls c ugly Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2026-06-01 02:26 +0100
                Re: this girl calls c ugly David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2026-05-31 13:24 +0200
          Re: this girl calls c ugly Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2026-05-29 08:09 +0200
            Re: this girl calls c ugly BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-05-29 04:15 -0500
              Re: this girl calls c ugly Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2026-05-29 14:58 +0200
                Re: this girl calls c ugly BGB <cr88192@gmail.com> - 2026-05-30 01:04 -0500
            Re: this girl calls c ugly Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-05-29 23:20 +0000
              Re: this girl calls c ugly Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2026-05-30 11:18 +0200

csiph-web