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Groups > sci.electronics.components > #6165 > unrolled thread
| Started by | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2017-10-16 10:16 -0400 |
| Last post | 2017-10-17 17:37 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 49 — 9 participants |
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Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-16 10:16 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-16 12:47 -0500
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-16 20:49 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 01:30 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 02:28 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-17 08:13 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 05:21 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-17 09:47 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 06:18 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-17 10:26 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 06:33 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-17 15:31 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 16:52 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-18 07:12 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-18 04:58 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-18 09:29 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 16:53 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-18 07:12 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2017-10-17 12:07 -0700
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 17:19 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2017-10-17 20:03 -0700
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 23:36 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-18 17:49 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-18 16:42 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-19 09:11 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-19 10:53 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-19 15:22 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-19 12:18 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-19 16:47 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-19 18:34 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-20 07:48 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-20 04:56 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-20 09:38 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-20 12:47 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-10-20 17:00 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-20 13:45 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries krw@notreal.com - 2017-10-20 20:05 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-20 22:54 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries krw@notreal.com - 2017-10-20 23:03 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-20 23:23 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries krw@notreal.com - 2017-10-21 10:48 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-21 14:53 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries krw@notreal.com - 2017-10-21 19:49 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-10-27 22:47 +0000
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries krw@notreal.com - 2017-10-27 22:25 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-19 12:51 -0400
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-10-17 21:05 +0100
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 16:02 +0100
Re: Li-Polymer Batteries rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-10-17 17:37 -0400
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| From | mike <ham789@netzero.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-17 20:03 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <os6gc3$4k5$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6182 |
On 10/17/2017 2:19 PM, rickman wrote: > mike wrote on 10/17/2017 3:07 PM: >> On 10/17/2017 3:33 AM, rickman wrote: >>> Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 6:26 AM: >>>> On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:18:09 -0400) it happened rickman >>>> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4lda$4hi$1@dont-email.me>: >>>> >>>>> Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 5:47 AM: >>>>>> On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 05:21:15 -0400) it happened rickman >>>>>> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4i2d$cgp$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 4:13 AM: >>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 01:30:45 -0400) it happened >>>>>>>> rickman >>>>>>>> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os44i7$p0f$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> rickman wrote on 10/16/2017 10:16 AM: >>>>>>>>>> I'm looking at buying these batteries for a test project and >>>>>>>>>> they ask the >>>>>>>>>> buyer to choose between battery types 357090 & 357095. I can't >>>>>>>>>> find any >>>>>>>>>> references anywhere that describe what these model numbers >>>>>>>>>> mean. Anyone know? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/201761814378 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It has build in chips to protect it, very unlikely to cath fire if >>>>>>>> you use a decent charger chip. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Very unlikely" is fine when it is sitting on your desk. If that >>>>>>> happens >>>>>>> you get an appropriate fire extinguisher and put it out or at least >>>>>>> let it >>>>>>> burn and put out anything else it has ignited. If you are in a >>>>>>> vehicle >>>>>>> where you have no means of escaping and no way to deal with the >>>>>>> fire, you >>>>>>> are SOL. "Very unlikely" isn't good enough for me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Na, wrap your nuclear plants in .. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Also, I'm not convinced all of these units have protection. The >>>>>>> two model >>>>>>> numbers would seem to indicate one is 5 mm longer than the other. >>>>>>> I expect >>>>>>> this is exactly the size of the protection board, so one might have >>>>>>> protection and the other might not. It is not all that unusual for >>>>>>> an eBay >>>>>>> listing to contain errors and complete lies^H^H^H^H^H alternate >>>>>>> facts. >>>>>> >>>>>> True, I only looked at the link, you can see the protection board, >>>>>> I have some like that, but only 1000 mAh, marked 'Varta'. >>>>>> From China nevertheless. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have some without protection board too...more RC type single cell >>>>>> lipos. >>>>>> And then I have the 3 cell ones, 30C ... no protection either. >>>>>> Danger all around me, >>>>>> Oh and the box with LiIon super powerfull forgot how many C. >>>>>> >>>>>> Gotta run :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Think about it, you find lipos everywhere, even in those blutooth >>>>>> earplugs / >>>>>> headsets for your cellphone, and happily plug it in your ear and >>>>>> wear it on your head. >>>>>> Cars have gasoline, bad things can happen... >>>>>> There is a mad dog president in control of the button, I would worry >>>>>> about that first. >>>>>> Probabilities. >>>>> >>>>> I seem to recall a number of professional designs from companies who >>>>> have >>>>> much reputation to loose which burst into flames. >>>> >>>> Was it not Liion? >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> So no, I don't have tons of confidence in Lithium batteries to the >>>>> extent >>>>> that I want to strap one on my kayak with no physical protection >>>>> against the >>>>> boat catching on fire. >>>> >>>> Well just roll. >>> >>> I seem to recall Lithium doesn't do so well in contact with water. >>> >> Interesting to see how far people will go to ignore the total system >> and focus on one ill-conceived component. >> The devil is in the details, and we have few. > > Not sure what you mean about ignoring the "system"? > > >> Do the math. >> How much energy is released in a battery fire? > > A lithium batter will release a *lot* more heat than just what is stored > in the battery. Even discharged lithium batteries have to be stored > safely. Yes, you understand the problem...but what's the number? I suspect you can't contain a fire in any container you're willing to paddle around in a kayak. Depends on that number. > > >> If you insulate it, how hot will it get inside, since you've >> guaranteed thermal runaway? > > Don't care, the concern is to prevent the China syndrome where the > battery burns its case and melts though my boat. High density > polyethylene won't stand up to a lithium fire, or any other type of fire > for that matter. > > >> How much energy is released as heat if you discharge the battery >> at maximum current allowed by your current limit strategy? >> What does that do to the cell temperature if you insulate it? > > The unit won't be drawing the maximum current. There will be protection > to prevent this. The load will be relatively light compared to the C > value. I'm interested in a long discharge time. > > >> How often are you gonna use this kayak device? >> Can you not throw it overboard if it catches fire? > > Not very easily. It will be securely affixed to the bow of a 17 foot > kayak with me in the middle. My arms aren't 8 foot long. Ok then that's something you can change in your "system approach". slight modification of the requirements can make a huge difference in the "system" solution. > > >> I submit that the release mechanism is far more likely >> to jamb than the battery is to catch fire. ;-) > > A great reason to prevent a fire from becoming catastrophic. > > >> Given your paranoia, might a NiMH or Alkaline AA cell pack >> be more cost effective and weigh less and take up less space >> than your protection vault and fire suppression apparatus and floating >> burn unit to treat the injured? Maybe you should have two burn >> units just in case one of the doctors has a heart attack. > > That would be a good idea, but NiMH cells don't have the density. But > that might not be a significant issue. Looking at the overall system requirements can reveal if this is a viable option. It does address your major fear. It's all about the weighting of constraints. Was it the Rolling Stones???You can't always get what you want.. But the circuits to use NiMH in > a device like this aren't so common. Do you care what's common? You building more than one? If you can accommodate the voltage variation of lithium, you can probably figger out how to substitute Lithium. > > >> I surmise that there are some devices sold on EBAY that are made >> from tested/fully compliant components and do what they say. >> Problem is that you can't tell which. >> >> Battery protection built into the battery won't solve your problem. >> It's there as a backup to your own carefully crafted redundant >> battery management system. I'm not saying you shouldn't have it. >> I'm saying that you shouldn't rely on it. > > Yes, and the battery charger/step up circuit also incorporates protection. > > >> The good news is that you are very much more likely to drown >> than to catch fire. > > I'd hate to hear the bad news. >
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-17 23:36 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <os6i7j$dkq$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6184 |
mike wrote on 10/17/2017 11:03 PM: > On 10/17/2017 2:19 PM, rickman wrote: >> mike wrote on 10/17/2017 3:07 PM: >>> On 10/17/2017 3:33 AM, rickman wrote: >>>> Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 6:26 AM: >>>>> On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:18:09 -0400) it happened rickman >>>>> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4lda$4hi$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>> >>>>>> Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 5:47 AM: >>>>>>> On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 05:21:15 -0400) it happened rickman >>>>>>> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4i2d$cgp$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/17/2017 4:13 AM: >>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 01:30:45 -0400) it happened >>>>>>>>> rickman >>>>>>>>> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os44i7$p0f$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> rickman wrote on 10/16/2017 10:16 AM: >>>>>>>>>>> I'm looking at buying these batteries for a test project and >>>>>>>>>>> they ask the >>>>>>>>>>> buyer to choose between battery types 357090 & 357095. I can't >>>>>>>>>>> find any >>>>>>>>>>> references anywhere that describe what these model numbers >>>>>>>>>>> mean. Anyone know? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/201761814378 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It has build in chips to protect it, very unlikely to cath fire if >>>>>>>>> you use a decent charger chip. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Very unlikely" is fine when it is sitting on your desk. If that >>>>>>>> happens >>>>>>>> you get an appropriate fire extinguisher and put it out or at least >>>>>>>> let it >>>>>>>> burn and put out anything else it has ignited. If you are in a >>>>>>>> vehicle >>>>>>>> where you have no means of escaping and no way to deal with the >>>>>>>> fire, you >>>>>>>> are SOL. "Very unlikely" isn't good enough for me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Na, wrap your nuclear plants in .. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also, I'm not convinced all of these units have protection. The >>>>>>>> two model >>>>>>>> numbers would seem to indicate one is 5 mm longer than the other. >>>>>>>> I expect >>>>>>>> this is exactly the size of the protection board, so one might have >>>>>>>> protection and the other might not. It is not all that unusual for >>>>>>>> an eBay >>>>>>>> listing to contain errors and complete lies^H^H^H^H^H alternate >>>>>>>> facts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> True, I only looked at the link, you can see the protection board, >>>>>>> I have some like that, but only 1000 mAh, marked 'Varta'. >>>>>>> From China nevertheless. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have some without protection board too...more RC type single cell >>>>>>> lipos. >>>>>>> And then I have the 3 cell ones, 30C ... no protection either. >>>>>>> Danger all around me, >>>>>>> Oh and the box with LiIon super powerfull forgot how many C. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gotta run :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Think about it, you find lipos everywhere, even in those blutooth >>>>>>> earplugs / >>>>>>> headsets for your cellphone, and happily plug it in your ear and >>>>>>> wear it on your head. >>>>>>> Cars have gasoline, bad things can happen... >>>>>>> There is a mad dog president in control of the button, I would worry >>>>>>> about that first. >>>>>>> Probabilities. >>>>>> >>>>>> I seem to recall a number of professional designs from companies who >>>>>> have >>>>>> much reputation to loose which burst into flames. >>>>> >>>>> Was it not Liion? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So no, I don't have tons of confidence in Lithium batteries to the >>>>>> extent >>>>>> that I want to strap one on my kayak with no physical protection >>>>>> against the >>>>>> boat catching on fire. >>>>> >>>>> Well just roll. >>>> >>>> I seem to recall Lithium doesn't do so well in contact with water. >>>> >>> Interesting to see how far people will go to ignore the total system >>> and focus on one ill-conceived component. >>> The devil is in the details, and we have few. >> >> Not sure what you mean about ignoring the "system"? >> >> >>> Do the math. >>> How much energy is released in a battery fire? >> >> A lithium batter will release a *lot* more heat than just what is stored >> in the battery. Even discharged lithium batteries have to be stored >> safely. > Yes, you understand the problem...but what's the number? > I suspect you can't contain a fire in any container you're willing > to paddle around in a kayak. Depends on that number. 42 >>> If you insulate it, how hot will it get inside, since you've >>> guaranteed thermal runaway? >> >> Don't care, the concern is to prevent the China syndrome where the >> battery burns its case and melts though my boat. High density >> polyethylene won't stand up to a lithium fire, or any other type of fire >> for that matter. >> >> >>> How much energy is released as heat if you discharge the battery >>> at maximum current allowed by your current limit strategy? >>> What does that do to the cell temperature if you insulate it? >> >> The unit won't be drawing the maximum current. There will be protection >> to prevent this. The load will be relatively light compared to the C >> value. I'm interested in a long discharge time. >> >> >>> How often are you gonna use this kayak device? >>> Can you not throw it overboard if it catches fire? >> >> Not very easily. It will be securely affixed to the bow of a 17 foot >> kayak with me in the middle. My arms aren't 8 foot long. > > Ok then that's something you can change in your "system approach". > > slight modification of the requirements can make a huge difference in the > "system" solution. Yes, changing the problem can make the solution much easier to find. So what change are you proposing? The way you talk, you sound like you are familiar with formal project management. What drives the requirements in the systems you work on? >>> I submit that the release mechanism is far more likely >>> to jamb than the battery is to catch fire. ;-) >> >> A great reason to prevent a fire from becoming catastrophic. >> >> >>> Given your paranoia, might a NiMH or Alkaline AA cell pack >>> be more cost effective and weigh less and take up less space >>> than your protection vault and fire suppression apparatus and floating >>> burn unit to treat the injured? Maybe you should have two burn >>> units just in case one of the doctors has a heart attack. >> >> That would be a good idea, but NiMH cells don't have the density. But >> that might not be a significant issue. > Looking at the overall system requirements can reveal if this is a viable > option. It does address your major fear. It's all about the weighting > of constraints. Was it the Rolling Stones???You can't always get what you > want.. > But the circuits to use NiMH in >> a device like this aren't so common. > Do you care what's common? You building more than one? > If you can accommodate the voltage variation of lithium, you > can probably figger out how to substitute Lithium. I recall someone's tag line saying engineering is about making what you need with the materials you can get. In this case I am not looking to design a board and solder chips. I wish to use commonly available and low cost board level components to fabricate this system. So yes, I care what's available. What's common usually means low cost. So I care about that as well. So far I have not seen a single board that will serve as a power bank using a single NiMH cell the way I can with a lithium cell. I don't see where you are making any effort to help. You seem to want to nitpick rather than assist. I was hoping someone here had been down this road and could help with recommendation of what to use or what to avoid. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-18 17:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <os846o$v0c$1@news.datemas.de> |
| In reply to | #6175 |
On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:33:15 -0400) it happened rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4m9d$971$1@dont-email.me>: >>> I seem to recall a number of professional designs from companies who have >>> much reputation to loose which burst into flames. >> >> Was it not Liion? >> >> >>> >>> So no, I don't have tons of confidence in Lithium batteries to the extent >>> that I want to strap one on my kayak with no physical protection against the >>> boat catching on fire. >> >> Well just roll. PS There was just an interesting talk on the local ham net repeater 'daily minutes' some of the fire brigade over here went to the Tesla factory to get instructions how to extinguish burning electric cars. The answer (from Tesla) was: 'Use Water, lost of it, at least two firecars full'. So 'roll' was the right answer. An other suggestion that struck me was: 'Put a smoke alarm above your charge setup'.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-18 16:42 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <os8eb5$p05$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6190 |
Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/18/2017 1:49 PM: > On a sunny day (Tue, 17 Oct 2017 06:33:15 -0400) it happened rickman > <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os4m9d$971$1@dont-email.me>: > >>>> I seem to recall a number of professional designs from companies who have >>>> much reputation to loose which burst into flames. >>> >>> Was it not Liion? >>> >>> >>>> >>>> So no, I don't have tons of confidence in Lithium batteries to the extent >>>> that I want to strap one on my kayak with no physical protection against the >>>> boat catching on fire. >>> >>> Well just roll. > > PS > There was just an interesting talk on the local ham net repeater 'daily minutes' > some of the fire brigade over here went to the Tesla factory to get instructions how to extinguish burning electric cars. > The answer (from Tesla) was: > 'Use Water, lost of it, at least two firecars full'. > So 'roll' was the right answer. > An other suggestion that struck me was: > 'Put a smoke alarm above your charge setup'. "Roll" is not the right answer. First, not every kayker knows how to roll. We all soon learn how to do the half roll adequately, but getting out of your boat is only a last gasp not at all unlike bailing from an airplane. It's not something you do until all other options are exhausted. The bottom line is people are getting all wound up about my idea of doing something to contain a battery fire rather than offering any useful advice. I've actually found some very interesting hose intended to be a cable or hose jacket which will tolerate the heat of a Lithium battery fire for some five minutes or more. Looks like I can close the two ends and have a fairly effective fire container without much cost, weight or size. The other current option is to use a mat of silica or ceramic fibers (like fiberglass, but tolerates higher temperatures. This would form an insulating blanket that can be shaped into a pocket with one end closed after inserting the battery. Again, this will be lightweight, cost effective and small enough to put in the case I plan to use. So where is the problem? What I was hoping for was info on how well the various boards to use with the battery would work, but obviously no one here has bought any of them. I will have parts in a couple more weeks. I will need to play with the LEDs to see just how much power they use and how many LEDs I'll need to be bright enough. There are very bright white LEDs but nav light need to be red and green. Seems the best way to go is to use RGB LEDs which will allow them to be any color desired. But they are not as bright as white LEDs so I will test them and see how many are needed. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-19 09:11 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <os9q7s$1o80$2@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #6191 |
On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Oct 2017 16:42:12 -0400) it happened rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os8eb5$p05$1@dont-email.me>: >The bottom line is people are getting all wound up about my idea of doing >something to contain a battery fire rather than offering any useful advice. >I've actually found some very interesting hose intended to be a cable or >hose jacket which will tolerate the heat of a Lithium battery fire for some >five minutes or more. Looks like I can close the two ends and have a fairly >effective fire container without much cost, weight or size. > >The other current option is to use a mat of silica or ceramic fibers (like >fiberglass, but tolerates higher temperatures. This would form an >insulating blanket that can be shaped into a pocket with one end closed >after inserting the battery. Again, this will be lightweight, cost >effective and small enough to put in the case I plan to use. > >So where is the problem? > >What I was hoping for was info on how well the various boards to use with >the battery would work, but obviously no one here has bought any of them. > >I will have parts in a couple more weeks. I will need to play with the LEDs >to see just how much power they use and how many LEDs I'll need to be bright >enough. There are very bright white LEDs but nav light need to be red and >green. Seems the best way to go is to use RGB LEDs which will allow them to >be any color desired. But they are not as bright as white LEDs so I will >test them and see how many are needed. I don't know, seems you are just playing, no idea where you are, but over here nav light for boats need to be certified. There are whole discussions about that in the local boating group (in Dutch), including links to sellers. They even have meetings and test the various things on sale. I know about 3 color LED top lights for sailboats, do not know what you would put on your kayak, left-right would be very close together and very low, you do not get any range like that? None at all with waves? Anyways, 2 of those bottles like I showed, one left, one right, or some other models, drink content first, wine bottles do not leak, use cork. Round liion may fit through bottle neck, 'recharge' often...
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-19 10:53 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <osae96$4i3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6199 |
Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/19/2017 5:11 AM: > On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Oct 2017 16:42:12 -0400) it happened rickman > <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <os8eb5$p05$1@dont-email.me>: > >> The bottom line is people are getting all wound up about my idea of doing >> something to contain a battery fire rather than offering any useful advice. >> I've actually found some very interesting hose intended to be a cable or >> hose jacket which will tolerate the heat of a Lithium battery fire for some >> five minutes or more. Looks like I can close the two ends and have a fairly >> effective fire container without much cost, weight or size. >> >> The other current option is to use a mat of silica or ceramic fibers (like >> fiberglass, but tolerates higher temperatures. This would form an >> insulating blanket that can be shaped into a pocket with one end closed >> after inserting the battery. Again, this will be lightweight, cost >> effective and small enough to put in the case I plan to use. >> >> So where is the problem? >> >> What I was hoping for was info on how well the various boards to use with >> the battery would work, but obviously no one here has bought any of them. >> >> I will have parts in a couple more weeks. I will need to play with the LEDs >> to see just how much power they use and how many LEDs I'll need to be bright >> enough. There are very bright white LEDs but nav light need to be red and >> green. Seems the best way to go is to use RGB LEDs which will allow them to >> be any color desired. But they are not as bright as white LEDs so I will >> test them and see how many are needed. > > I don't know, seems you are just playing, no idea where you are, but over here nav light for boats need to be certified. > There are whole discussions about that in the local boating group (in Dutch), including links to sellers. > They even have meetings and test the various things on sale. > I know about 3 color LED top lights for sailboats, do not know what you would put on your kayak, > left-right would be very close together and very low, you do not get any range like that? > None at all with waves? Lights are not really required for small paddled boats in the US other than needing one you can shine when required to prevent a collision (a good flashlight). Manually paddled boats are covered by regulations for sailboats "under oars". Otherwise you can show red/green to the front 225° and white to the rear 135°. The flashlights require that you be able to shine the light which is problematic if you are having trouble. I plan to use a waterproof remote control to be able to manage a red/green/white light in the front and a white light in the rear. Mounting it all on a single mast would be ideal, but kayaks seldom have masts. > Anyways, 2 of those bottles like I showed, one left, one right, > or some other models, > drink content first, wine bottles do not leak, use cork. > Round liion may fit through bottle neck, 'recharge' often... Or use something that is more appropriate. http://www.ebay.com/itm/332252729519 My only real concern with this is how well I can mount the LEDs to shine through the clear part. Initially I ordered some all clear cases intended to secure a cell phone, but one cracked in transit and the gasket on it looked like crap. So I thought something a bit more robust was in order. Glass will not be used, period. I don't know why you can't see the issue. Imagine the rough handling such containers will have to sustain when they aren't on the boat. It's not like a piece of lab equipment. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-19 15:22 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <osafut$103b$1@gioia.aioe.org> |
| In reply to | #6201 |
On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:53:25 -0400) it happened rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osae96$4i3$1@dont-email.me>: >Lights are not really required for small paddled boats in the US other than >needing one you can shine when required to prevent a collision (a good >flashlight). Manually paddled boats are covered by regulations for >sailboats "under oars". Otherwise you can show red/green to the front 225° >and white to the rear 135°. The flashlights require that you be able to >shine the light which is problematic if you are having trouble. I plan to >use a waterproof remote control to be able to manage a red/green/white light >in the front and a white light in the rear. Mounting it all on a single >mast would be ideal, but kayaks seldom have masts. > > >> Anyways, 2 of those bottles like I showed, one left, one right, >> or some other models, >> drink content first, wine bottles do not leak, use cork. >> Round liion may fit through bottle neck, 'recharge' often... > >Or use something that is more appropriate. > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/332252729519 > >My only real concern with this is how well I can mount the LEDs to shine >through the clear part. Initially I ordered some all clear cases intended >to secure a cell phone, but one cracked in transit and the gasket on it >looked like crap. So I thought something a bit more robust was in order. > >Glass will not be used, period. I don't know why you can't see the issue. >Imagine the rough handling such containers will have to sustain when they >aren't on the boat. It's not like a piece of lab equipment. OK, well there are also plastic bottles ;-) But I was wondering if you could not make something with an existing 3 color sector light, maybe fit the battery battery pack in it? Those exists both with white LEDs and also with R, G, B LEDs like this: http://www.cactusnav.com/nasa-supernova-combi-tricolour-anchor-light-p-12936.html 'Supernova lights do not have any national approvals' The sailing guys here seem to like that one.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-19 12:18 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <osaj9b$cs3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6202 |
Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/19/2017 11:22 AM: > On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:53:25 -0400) it happened rickman > <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osae96$4i3$1@dont-email.me>: > >> Lights are not really required for small paddled boats in the US other than >> needing one you can shine when required to prevent a collision (a good >> flashlight). Manually paddled boats are covered by regulations for >> sailboats "under oars". Otherwise you can show red/green to the front 225° >> and white to the rear 135°. The flashlights require that you be able to >> shine the light which is problematic if you are having trouble. I plan to >> use a waterproof remote control to be able to manage a red/green/white light >> in the front and a white light in the rear. Mounting it all on a single >> mast would be ideal, but kayaks seldom have masts. >> >> >>> Anyways, 2 of those bottles like I showed, one left, one right, >>> or some other models, >>> drink content first, wine bottles do not leak, use cork. >>> Round liion may fit through bottle neck, 'recharge' often... >> >> Or use something that is more appropriate. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/332252729519 >> >> My only real concern with this is how well I can mount the LEDs to shine >> through the clear part. Initially I ordered some all clear cases intended >> to secure a cell phone, but one cracked in transit and the gasket on it >> looked like crap. So I thought something a bit more robust was in order. >> >> Glass will not be used, period. I don't know why you can't see the issue. >> Imagine the rough handling such containers will have to sustain when they >> aren't on the boat. It's not like a piece of lab equipment. > > OK, well there are also plastic bottles ;-) > > But I was wondering if you could not make something with an existing 3 color sector light, > maybe fit the battery battery pack in it? > Those exists both with white LEDs and also with R, G, B LEDs like this: > http://www.cactusnav.com/nasa-supernova-combi-tricolour-anchor-light-p-12936.html > 'Supernova lights do not have any national approvals' > The sailing guys here seem to like that one. I have yet to find much that would be appropriate for a small vessel like a kayak. It has to be two parts unless you want the bright white light shining in your eyes. One of the great things about kayaking at night is getting light adapted and seeing things under starlight. Here is something interesting for enclosing the battery. https://www.ebay.com/itm/112506110668 It is way larger than what I need, but can be folded over I think. Folding it twice it is small enough. They don't say what it is made of. One way to find out. Thanks for discussing this. I don't think I would have found this bag if I weren't talking to you. The bag will be much better than the other two approaches I found. But then there is the question of how good the bag will be. It's cheap enough I might just do the test you suggested. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-19 16:47 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <osakvq$8mj$1@news.datemas.de> |
| In reply to | #6203 |
On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 12:18:50 -0400) it happened rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osaj9b$cs3$1@dont-email.me>: >I have yet to find much that would be appropriate for a small vessel like a >kayak. It has to be two parts unless you want the bright white light >shining in your eyes. One of the great things about kayaking at night is >getting light adapted and seeing things under starlight. > >Here is something interesting for enclosing the battery. > >https://www.ebay.com/itm/112506110668 Yes, those bags are often recommended, maybe I should get some too, or not??? I keep the liion cells that I do not use in a plastic icecream box..: http://panteltje.com/pub/liion_cells_storage_IMG_6338.JPG the tape it to prevent cells moving and makeing a ciruit. >It is way larger than what I need, but can be folded over I think. Folding >it twice it is small enough. They don't say what it is made of. One way to >find out. Thanks for discussing this. I don't think I would have found >this bag if I weren't talking to you. The bag will be much better than the >other two approaches I found. But then there is the question of how good >the bag will be. It's cheap enough I might just do the test you suggested. There was a video on youtube about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEkewCjiDs0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnNId0mDnBo YMMV
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-19 18:34 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <osb9a9$v5o$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6204 |
Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/19/2017 12:47 PM: > On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 12:18:50 -0400) it happened rickman > <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osaj9b$cs3$1@dont-email.me>: > >> I have yet to find much that would be appropriate for a small vessel like a >> kayak. It has to be two parts unless you want the bright white light >> shining in your eyes. One of the great things about kayaking at night is >> getting light adapted and seeing things under starlight. >> >> Here is something interesting for enclosing the battery. >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/112506110668 > > Yes, those bags are often recommended, maybe I should get some too, or not??? > I keep the liion cells that I do not use in a plastic icecream box..: > http://panteltje.com/pub/liion_cells_storage_IMG_6338.JPG > the tape it to prevent cells moving and makeing a ciruit. > > >> It is way larger than what I need, but can be folded over I think. Folding >> it twice it is small enough. They don't say what it is made of. One way to >> find out. Thanks for discussing this. I don't think I would have found >> this bag if I weren't talking to you. The bag will be much better than the >> other two approaches I found. But then there is the question of how good >> the bag will be. It's cheap enough I might just do the test you suggested. > > There was a video on youtube about it: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEkewCjiDs0 > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnNId0mDnBo > YMMV Interesting. Both videos use a lot more battery than I will use and the bag is barely closed. I would be essentially rolling the bag up and depending on the size I use I would be folding the sides over before rolling. These bags are not made of thick material. Much better would be this... https://www.ebay.com/itm/171761074567 or this... https://www.ebay.com/itm/192107744089 A meter of the hose is about $22 from Aliexpress. I used an eBay link because you can't shorten Ali links the same way. The hose is silicone coated fiberglass which is rated for some minutes at 1100 °F/600 °C which is the alleged temperature of a Li-ion battery fire. The blanket is only $8. It is ceramic fiber rated for higher temperatures indefinitely. It would be enough material for at least three units. I plan to make at least two. I believe I can make a pouch easily using thin gauge wire. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-20 07:48 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <osc9p7$43g$1@news.datemas.de> |
| In reply to | #6208 |
On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 18:34:47 -0400) it happened rickman
<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osb9a9$v5o$1@dont-email.me>:
>Interesting. Both videos use a lot more battery than I will use and the bag
>is barely closed. I would be essentially rolling the bag up and depending
>on the size I use I would be folding the sides over before rolling.
You have to leave some opening so the smoke can escape and the pressure can
be prevented to build up to a point where the bag tares.
>These bags are not made of thick material. Much better would be this...
>
>https://www.ebay.com/itm/171761074567
>
>or this...
I wonder if that stuff absorbs moisture...
>https://www.ebay.com/itm/192107744089
Same.
>A meter of the hose is about $22 from Aliexpress. I used an eBay link
>because you can't shorten Ali links the same way. The hose is silicone
>coated fiberglass which is rated for some minutes at 1100 °F/600 °C which is
>the alleged temperature of a Li-ion battery fire.
>
>The blanket is only $8. It is ceramic fiber rated for higher temperatures
>indefinitely. It would be enough material for at least three units. I plan
>to make at least two. I believe I can make a pouch easily using thin gauge
>wire.
I still think you are over-designing a bit.
I like the flat plastic case for the lights you posted, IF it is really waterproof I would
not bother with too much 'fire protection' especially with those batteries with protection chip.
If it does catch fire, then overboard with it... ;-)
Other thing I was thinking is to make 2 'antennas' of carbon fiber rod or some flexible rod at the rear of the kayak with in the top red and green LEDs,
battery holder at the bottom, needs some screws on an attachment point.
0 0 --> LED
\ /
\ /
\ / carbon rod
\ /
[ ] [ ]
================= kayak
Could also be one thing with 2 antennas
Danger is it sticks in you eyes.
Experiment.
Let us know !
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-20 04:56 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <oscdoi$iu3$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6213 |
Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/20/2017 3:48 AM: > On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 18:34:47 -0400) it happened rickman > <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osb9a9$v5o$1@dont-email.me>: > >> Interesting. Both videos use a lot more battery than I will use and the bag >> is barely closed. I would be essentially rolling the bag up and depending >> on the size I use I would be folding the sides over before rolling. > > You have to leave some opening so the smoke can escape and the pressure can > be prevented to build up to a point where the bag tares. Yes, but some opening is not the gaping holes in these bags. The other video with a bunch of batteries in a latched and sealed ammo case is pretty instructive. Before it broke the seal it actually dented the can with the pressure. But like I said earlier, one cell of Lipo is not nearly as much energy as the videos show. If I could find similar products to the power bank boards that worked with NiMH, I'd go that route. I believe they actually prefer NiCad in power tools because of the high current. NiMH has too much internal impedance. But this will only draw a couple hundred mA most likely, so it would be a good fit. I would have to roll my own design for the whole thing. >> These bags are not made of thick material. Much better would be this... >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/171761074567 >> >> or this... > > I wonder if that stuff absorbs moisture... > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/192107744089 > > Same. Not sure why you think it will wick moisture and why that is an issue. The cell is sealed so some moisture won't hurt it. If it catches fire moisture will only help dampen the temperature. >> A meter of the hose is about $22 from Aliexpress. I used an eBay link >> because you can't shorten Ali links the same way. The hose is silicone >> coated fiberglass which is rated for some minutes at 1100 °F/600 °C which is >> the alleged temperature of a Li-ion battery fire. >> >> The blanket is only $8. It is ceramic fiber rated for higher temperatures >> indefinitely. It would be enough material for at least three units. I plan >> to make at least two. I believe I can make a pouch easily using thin gauge >> wire. > > I still think you are over-designing a bit. Maybe. Many people take their cell phone out on a kayak as a rescue device. It would suck if it caught fire and cause the boat to sink. > I like the flat plastic case for the lights you posted, IF it is really waterproof I would Yeah, I already bought one case designed for cell phones and they seem to have a very poor seal material, hard and not terribly compliant. Being water tight is essential. I've had a number of things ruined while kayaking when they were supposed to be water tight, including handheld IP67 GPS devices. > not bother with too much 'fire protection' especially with those batteries with protection chip. > If it does catch fire, then overboard with it... ;-) You keep not paying attention. There will be two of these at opposite ends of a 17 foot kayak and the paddler in the middle. There's no way to release it. > Other thing I was thinking is to make 2 'antennas' of carbon fiber rod or some flexible rod at the rear of the kayak with in the top red and green LEDs, > battery holder at the bottom, needs some screws on an attachment point. > > > > > 0 0 --> LED > \ / > \ / > \ / carbon rod > \ / > [ ] [ ] > ================= kayak > > Could also be one thing with 2 antennas > > Danger is it sticks in you eyes. > > Experiment. > Let us know ! No need to experiment. Things sticking up on a kayak are not good. I'm not sure why you would think there is any advantage to this anyhow. Everything on a kayak wants to be low on the deck, unless you are flying a flag. The red and green lights go on the front to make sure they are seen at all times. They shine from dead ahead to 22.5 degrees past a perpendicular line off each side. The person needs to not be in the way or the light can be missed. They are mounted (along with the white light that shines over the remaining 135 degrees) on the top of the mast of a sail boat because it *has* a mast. On a kayak, a second unit is needed at the rear for the white light. When "at anchor" an all around white light is required. If you were to put the lights on a mast of some sort, they would all be mounted in one unit, not separate units. But a tall thing is a very poor idea for may reasons. Try kayaking sometime, you will learn quickly. My idea is to use two identical units with something to tell each one which is which (I'm thinking of a magnet operated switch perhaps or an internal switch that you open the cover to set when you mount it on the boat). The only difference is how the units respond to the remote. There are four states - Off, Nav (red/green/white), anchor (all white) and emergency (flashes SOS in Morse code with all lights white). The flashing lowers the duty cycle and extends the duration of the battery. With 3000 mAHr it would run for some 10 hours continuously, or twice or triple that when flashing. But that is just an estimate. It helps in recovering the boat and/or the body. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-20 09:38 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <oscg7a$esr$2@news.datemas.de> |
| In reply to | #6214 |
On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Oct 2017 04:56:50 -0400) it happened rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <oscdoi$iu3$1@dont-email.me>: >>> These bags are not made of thick material. Much better would be this... >>> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/171761074567 >>> >>> or this... >> >> I wonder if that stuff absorbs moisture... >> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/192107744089 >> >> Same. > >Not sure why you think it will wick moisture and why that is an issue. The >cell is sealed so some moisture won't hurt it. If it catches fire moisture >will only help dampen the temperature. So, you contradict yourself, you had fear of water (for the cells ;-) ), now you say they are dry. >Maybe. Many people take their cell phone out on a kayak as a rescue device. > It would suck if it caught fire and cause the boat to sink. The solution is well known, called a PLB, EPIRB, the latest seems to be this: http://oceansignal.com/products/plb1/ But I do not think you will be kayaking on the ocean or big water? https://www.panbo.com/archives/2016/12/mcmurdo_smartfind_g8_ais_epirb_first_of_many_plbs_too_.html lots of info there too. >Yeah, I already bought one case designed for cell phones and they seem to >have a very poor seal material, hard and not terribly compliant. Being >water tight is essential. I've had a number of things ruined while kayaking >when they were supposed to be water tight, including handheld IP67 GPS devices. > > >> not bother with too much 'fire protection' especially with those batteries with protection chip. >> If it does catch fire, then overboard with it... ;-) > >You keep not paying attention. Wow >There will be two of these at opposite ends >of a 17 foot kayak and the paddler in the middle. There's no way to release >it. Easy to make a release system with some dyneema line. >> Other thing I was thinking is to make 2 'antennas' of carbon fiber rod or some flexible rod at the rear of the kayak with in >> the top red and green LEDs, >> battery holder at the bottom, needs some screws on an attachment point. >> >> >> >> >> 0 0 --> LED >> \ / >> \ / >> \ / carbon rod >> \ / >> [ ] [ ] >> ================= kayak >> >> Could also be one thing with 2 antennas >> >> Danger is it sticks in you eyes. >> >> Experiment. >> Let us know ! > >No need to experiment. Things sticking up on a kayak are not good. I'm not >sure why you would think there is any advantage to this anyhow. Can view it from further away seems a good one to me. >Everything on a kayak wants to be low on the deck, unless you are flying a >flag. The red and green lights go on the front to make sure they are seen >at all times. They shine from dead ahead to 22.5 degrees past a >perpendicular line off each side. The person needs to not be in the way or >the light can be missed. They are mounted (along with the white light that >shines over the remaining 135 degrees) on the top of the mast of a sail boat >because it *has* a mast. On a kayak, a second unit is needed at the rear >for the white light. When "at anchor" an all around white light is >required. If you were to put the lights on a mast of some sort, they would >all be mounted in one unit, not separate units. But a tall thing is a very >poor idea for may reasons. Try kayaking sometime, you will learn quickly. Actually I did, has been 50 years ago or so though. But not at night. >My idea is to use two identical units with something to tell each one which >is which (I'm thinking of a magnet operated switch perhaps or an internal >switch that you open the cover to set when you mount it on the boat). The >only difference is how the units respond to the remote. There are four >states - Off, Nav (red/green/white), anchor (all white) and emergency >(flashes SOS in Morse code with all lights white). The flashing lowers the >duty cycle and extends the duration of the battery. With 3000 mAHr it would >run for some 10 hours continuously, or twice or triple that when flashing. >But that is just an estimate. It helps in recovering the boat and/or the body. Well just build it, I really do not see the problem, few hours design work. If you have the remote, add an eject button:-) (it would need a separate battery, but wait, why not eject automatically (spring latch) when an IR optocoupler detects smoke or a sensor over-heating in the thing? Now THERE is a design challenge. You can add a phone home, fire crackers, sound alarm, and a speaker giving voice instructions to the crew(you) how to duck for cover. You also need coffee maker, pizza oven, fridge, probably need a bigger battery than just 3 Ah. How's that for paying attention? Can you keep up? :-) >-- > >Rick C > >Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, >on the centerline of totality since 1998 Here a few days ago the sun was red from the bush fires in the south of Europe, wind from that direction, you could smell it too. When the 100 % eclipse was here around 2000 IIRC even the flowers closed.. very strange.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-20 12:47 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <osd9ak$g1o$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6215 |
Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/20/2017 5:38 AM: > On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Oct 2017 04:56:50 -0400) it happened rickman > <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <oscdoi$iu3$1@dont-email.me>: > >>>> These bags are not made of thick material. Much better would be this... >>>> >>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/171761074567 >>>> >>>> or this... >>> >>> I wonder if that stuff absorbs moisture... >>> >>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/192107744089 >>> >>> Same. >> >> Not sure why you think it will wick moisture and why that is an issue. The >> cell is sealed so some moisture won't hurt it. If it catches fire moisture >> will only help dampen the temperature. > > So, you contradict yourself, > you had fear of water (for the cells ;-) ), > now you say they are dry. I guess you aren't reading any posts that aren't in reply to yours. I have already been educated that Li-ion is not the same as elemental lithium. Regardless, your sentence is not clear. My concern is making a dangerous fire worse, but that doesn't happen getting a lithium ion cell wet. >> Maybe. Many people take their cell phone out on a kayak as a rescue device. >> It would suck if it caught fire and cause the boat to sink. > > The solution is well known, called a PLB, EPIRB, the latest seems to be this: > http://oceansignal.com/products/plb1/ Why do you feel the need to educate me on things I already know about? These are great devices, but it can still take time to reach you. In an emergency time can be of the essence. The blinking light is a clear distress signal helping to attract attention. Also, EPIRB and PLB aren't nav lights. > But I do not think you will be kayaking on the ocean or big water? > https://www.panbo.com/archives/2016/12/mcmurdo_smartfind_g8_ais_epirb_first_of_many_plbs_too_.html > lots of info there too. > > >> Yeah, I already bought one case designed for cell phones and they seem to >> have a very poor seal material, hard and not terribly compliant. Being >> water tight is essential. I've had a number of things ruined while kayaking >> when they were supposed to be water tight, including handheld IP67 GPS devices. >> >> >>> not bother with too much 'fire protection' especially with those batteries with protection chip. >>> If it does catch fire, then overboard with it... ;-) >> >> You keep not paying attention. > > Wow Wow??? >> There will be two of these at opposite ends >> of a 17 foot kayak and the paddler in the middle. There's no way to release >> it. > > Easy to make a release system with some dyneema line. You keep showing a lack of understanding of kayaks. Get a kayak, paddle it for a few months and get back to me on how practical it is to have release lines running the length of the boat. Also make sure you learn how to do a self rescue. >>> Other thing I was thinking is to make 2 'antennas' of carbon fiber rod or some flexible rod at the rear of the kayak with in >>> the top red and green LEDs, >>> battery holder at the bottom, needs some screws on an attachment point. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 0 0 --> LED >>> \ / >>> \ / >>> \ / carbon rod >>> \ / >>> [ ] [ ] >>> ================= kayak >>> >>> Could also be one thing with 2 antennas >>> >>> Danger is it sticks in you eyes. >>> >>> Experiment. >>> Let us know ! >> >> No need to experiment. Things sticking up on a kayak are not good. I'm not >> sure why you would think there is any advantage to this anyhow. > > Can view it from further away seems a good one to me. The lights are to avoid a collision. My hand held light works just fine when I turn it on. I want nav lights so I don't need to worry with the flash light. They don't need to sacrifice practicality for visibility. Visibility will be just fine on the deck. >> Everything on a kayak wants to be low on the deck, unless you are flying a >> flag. The red and green lights go on the front to make sure they are seen >> at all times. They shine from dead ahead to 22.5 degrees past a >> perpendicular line off each side. The person needs to not be in the way or >> the light can be missed. They are mounted (along with the white light that >> shines over the remaining 135 degrees) on the top of the mast of a sail boat >> because it *has* a mast. On a kayak, a second unit is needed at the rear >> for the white light. When "at anchor" an all around white light is >> required. If you were to put the lights on a mast of some sort, they would >> all be mounted in one unit, not separate units. But a tall thing is a very >> poor idea for may reasons. Try kayaking sometime, you will learn quickly. > > Actually I did, has been 50 years ago or so though. > But not at night. White water or flat? Did you learn safety practices? Did you learn any self rescues? The deck of a kayak is not a static place. Some styles of rescue involve climbing over the back deck. No poles, etc. allowed. >> My idea is to use two identical units with something to tell each one which >> is which (I'm thinking of a magnet operated switch perhaps or an internal >> switch that you open the cover to set when you mount it on the boat). The >> only difference is how the units respond to the remote. There are four >> states - Off, Nav (red/green/white), anchor (all white) and emergency >> (flashes SOS in Morse code with all lights white). The flashing lowers the >> duty cycle and extends the duration of the battery. With 3000 mAHr it would >> run for some 10 hours continuously, or twice or triple that when flashing. >> But that is just an estimate. It helps in recovering the boat and/or the body. > > Well just build it, I really do not see the problem, few hours design work. > If you have the remote, add an eject button:-) > (it would need a separate battery, but wait, why not eject automatically (spring latch) The receiver and release don't need a battery? > when an IR optocoupler detects smoke or a sensor over-heating in the thing? > Now THERE is a design challenge. Not so much a design challenge as a question of need. It needs to be safe, there are more than one ways to skin a cat. > You can add a phone home, fire crackers, sound alarm, and a speaker giving voice instructions to the crew(you) how to duck for cover. > You also need coffee maker, pizza oven, fridge, probably need a bigger battery than just 3 Ah. > > How's that for paying attention? > Can you keep up? > :-) Great job! >> Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, >> on the centerline of totality since 1998 > > Here a few days ago the sun was red from the bush fires in the south of Europe, wind from that direction, you could smell it too. > When the 100 % eclipse was here around 2000 IIRC even the flowers closed.. very strange. It was pretty cool but far too short. They should work on making them last longer. Barely time to get one's cloths off and dance. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
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| From | Jan Panteltje <pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-20 17:00 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <osda2q$s78$1@news.datemas.de> |
| In reply to | #6217 |
On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Oct 2017 12:47:16 -0400) it happened rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osd9ak$g1o$1@dont-email.me>: >> The solution is well known, called a PLB, EPIRB, the latest seems to be this: >> http://oceansignal.com/products/plb1/ > >Why do you feel the need to educate me on things I already know about? Sigh, note what it says about the battery. You DO notice it has none of those protections you are on about? There simply is no space for that. It is simply a waterproof case, and the battery is OK. Study other designs before taking of on a tangent.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-20 13:45 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <osdcoa$c83$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6218 |
Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/20/2017 1:00 PM: > On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Oct 2017 12:47:16 -0400) it happened rickman > <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osd9ak$g1o$1@dont-email.me>: > >>> The solution is well known, called a PLB, EPIRB, the latest seems to be this: >>> http://oceansignal.com/products/plb1/ >> >> Why do you feel the need to educate me on things I already know about? > > Sigh, > note what it says about the battery. If you want to say something, why not just say it? > You DO notice it has none of those protections you are on about? > There simply is no space for that. > It is simply a waterproof case, and the battery is OK. > Study other designs before taking of on a tangent. They use a primary battery which is NOT Li-ion. It does contain elemental lithium, but this type of cell has a lower risk of fire than most types of lithium cells. But it is a primary type and is not rechargeable. I do find it funny that you seem to think I am taking of on a tangent. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-20 20:05 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <cf3luch717i2je0rbnjn41mmsiq5hu8qu3@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #6214 |
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 04:56:50 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/20/2017 3:48 AM: >> On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 18:34:47 -0400) it happened rickman >> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osb9a9$v5o$1@dont-email.me>: >> >>> Interesting. Both videos use a lot more battery than I will use and the bag >>> is barely closed. I would be essentially rolling the bag up and depending >>> on the size I use I would be folding the sides over before rolling. >> >> You have to leave some opening so the smoke can escape and the pressure can >> be prevented to build up to a point where the bag tares. > >Yes, but some opening is not the gaping holes in these bags. The other >video with a bunch of batteries in a latched and sealed ammo case is pretty >instructive. Before it broke the seal it actually dented the can with the >pressure. But like I said earlier, one cell of Lipo is not nearly as much >energy as the videos show. > >If I could find similar products to the power bank boards that worked with >NiMH, I'd go that route. I believe they actually prefer NiCad in power >tools because of the high current. NiMH has too much internal impedance. >But this will only draw a couple hundred mA most likely, so it would be a >good fit. I would have to roll my own design for the whole thing. Not sure where you going with your comment that "they" prefer NiCad in power tools. "They" (manufacturers) make almost[*] 100% LiIon tools these days. LiIon is a hands-down winner in this application, even though they scare you. [*] Someone might still make NiCd, still.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-20 22:54 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <osectg$iq7$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6221 |
krw@notreal.com wrote on 10/20/2017 8:05 PM: > On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 04:56:50 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/20/2017 3:48 AM: >>> On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 18:34:47 -0400) it happened rickman >>> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osb9a9$v5o$1@dont-email.me>: >>> >>>> Interesting. Both videos use a lot more battery than I will use and the bag >>>> is barely closed. I would be essentially rolling the bag up and depending >>>> on the size I use I would be folding the sides over before rolling. >>> >>> You have to leave some opening so the smoke can escape and the pressure can >>> be prevented to build up to a point where the bag tares. >> >> Yes, but some opening is not the gaping holes in these bags. The other >> video with a bunch of batteries in a latched and sealed ammo case is pretty >> instructive. Before it broke the seal it actually dented the can with the >> pressure. But like I said earlier, one cell of Lipo is not nearly as much >> energy as the videos show. >> >> If I could find similar products to the power bank boards that worked with >> NiMH, I'd go that route. I believe they actually prefer NiCad in power >> tools because of the high current. NiMH has too much internal impedance. >> But this will only draw a couple hundred mA most likely, so it would be a >> good fit. I would have to roll my own design for the whole thing. > > Not sure where you going with your comment that "they" prefer NiCad in > power tools. "They" (manufacturers) make almost[*] 100% LiIon tools > these days. LiIon is a hands-down winner in this application, even > though they scare you. The context was compared to NiMH. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
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| From | krw@notreal.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-20 23:03 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <v6elucdeguh0kidtuja0nfebuou12bdtcf@4ax.com> |
| In reply to | #6222 |
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 22:54:41 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >krw@notreal.com wrote on 10/20/2017 8:05 PM: >> On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 04:56:50 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/20/2017 3:48 AM: >>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 18:34:47 -0400) it happened rickman >>>> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osb9a9$v5o$1@dont-email.me>: >>>> >>>>> Interesting. Both videos use a lot more battery than I will use and the bag >>>>> is barely closed. I would be essentially rolling the bag up and depending >>>>> on the size I use I would be folding the sides over before rolling. >>>> >>>> You have to leave some opening so the smoke can escape and the pressure can >>>> be prevented to build up to a point where the bag tares. >>> >>> Yes, but some opening is not the gaping holes in these bags. The other >>> video with a bunch of batteries in a latched and sealed ammo case is pretty >>> instructive. Before it broke the seal it actually dented the can with the >>> pressure. But like I said earlier, one cell of Lipo is not nearly as much >>> energy as the videos show. >>> >>> If I could find similar products to the power bank boards that worked with >>> NiMH, I'd go that route. I believe they actually prefer NiCad in power >>> tools because of the high current. NiMH has too much internal impedance. >>> But this will only draw a couple hundred mA most likely, so it would be a >>> good fit. I would have to roll my own design for the whole thing. >> >> Not sure where you going with your comment that "they" prefer NiCad in >> power tools. "They" (manufacturers) make almost[*] 100% LiIon tools >> these days. LiIon is a hands-down winner in this application, even >> though they scare you. > >The context was compared to NiMH. Gotcha. Is anyone still making NiCD or NiMH tools? I haven't seen any in a long time.
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| From | rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2017-10-20 23:23 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <oseej7$r6d$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6223 |
krw@notreal.com wrote on 10/20/2017 11:03 PM: > On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 22:54:41 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: > >> krw@notreal.com wrote on 10/20/2017 8:05 PM: >>> On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 04:56:50 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Jan Panteltje wrote on 10/20/2017 3:48 AM: >>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Oct 2017 18:34:47 -0400) it happened rickman >>>>> <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote in <osb9a9$v5o$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>> >>>>>> Interesting. Both videos use a lot more battery than I will use and the bag >>>>>> is barely closed. I would be essentially rolling the bag up and depending >>>>>> on the size I use I would be folding the sides over before rolling. >>>>> >>>>> You have to leave some opening so the smoke can escape and the pressure can >>>>> be prevented to build up to a point where the bag tares. >>>> >>>> Yes, but some opening is not the gaping holes in these bags. The other >>>> video with a bunch of batteries in a latched and sealed ammo case is pretty >>>> instructive. Before it broke the seal it actually dented the can with the >>>> pressure. But like I said earlier, one cell of Lipo is not nearly as much >>>> energy as the videos show. >>>> >>>> If I could find similar products to the power bank boards that worked with >>>> NiMH, I'd go that route. I believe they actually prefer NiCad in power >>>> tools because of the high current. NiMH has too much internal impedance. >>>> But this will only draw a couple hundred mA most likely, so it would be a >>>> good fit. I would have to roll my own design for the whole thing. >>> >>> Not sure where you going with your comment that "they" prefer NiCad in >>> power tools. "They" (manufacturers) make almost[*] 100% LiIon tools >>> these days. LiIon is a hands-down winner in this application, even >>> though they scare you. >> >> The context was compared to NiMH. > > Gotcha. Is anyone still making NiCD or NiMH tools? I haven't seen > any in a long time. Don't know. It's been too long since I dug into hand tools much. I remember having an RC boat which ran ok on alkaline cells. Then I got rechargeables for it and it TOOK OFF like a rocket. Seems the lower resistance of the NiCd made a big difference. But it only ran for five minutes, lol. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998
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