Groups | Search | Server Info | Login | Register

Groups > rec.arts.books.tolkien > #20691

Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself?

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

Show all headers | View raw

On Wed, 7 Jan 2026 01:30:27 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws>
wrote:

>In rec.arts.books.tolkien Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> On Tue, 6 Jan 2026 05:07:18 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>In rec.arts.books.tolkien Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 21:40:16 -0000 (UTC), "O. Sharp" <ohh@panix.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> quotes and asks:
>>>>>>>>       "'Yes,'said Frodo.'...now all is over.
>>>>>>>>       I am glad you are here with me.Here at
>>>>>>>>       the end of all things,Sam.'"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>       "'I am glad that you are here with me,'
>>>>>>>>       said Frodo.'Here at the end of all things,
>>>>>>>>       Sam.'"
>>>>>[...]
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I do not have any pre-1966 "First Edition" copies,but my oldest
>>>>>> Ballantine and HMCo Second Editions both have the discrepancy.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Did Hammond & Scull flag this in their work?
>>>>>
>>>>>The First Edition has the same discrepancy for "that", and Hammond and 
>>>>>Scull's _Reader's Companion_ makes no note of it. In fact that line of 
>>>>>Frodo's (or those lines, if you prefer) doesn't even rate a mention in 
>>>>>_HoME IX_, even though it includes a reference to a plot outline where 
>>>>>Frodo was still named "Bingo". I guess _nobody_ wanted to point it out 
>>>>>before now.  :)
>>>> 
>>>> Or perhaps everybody else was sane enough to recognize that the two
>>>> situations produced similar thoughts.
>>>
>>>So you believe it was two different situations and lines
>>>rather than the same line chronicled differently?
>> 
>> It's been too long since I read the book to be clear.
>> 
>> But my memory does suggest that they occur in very different contexts.
>> With the same Hobbit reacting to similar psychological states the same
>> way.
>> 
>> But, if you prefer the path of the Higher Criticism, feel free. It can
>> do no harm, for it is ultimately pointless.
>
>Both of them refer to Frodo speaking to Sam on the slopes of Orodruin
>after the collapse of Barad-dur...there would not be confusion over whether
>this is a repetition of the exact same speech if there were any clear
>distinction.

Well, have you considered the possibility that Frodo, having lost a
finger, is in shock and not thinking clearly? And reacting to Sam the
same way twice as a result?

As I said, the Higher Criticism is find, but ultimately pointless.

I mean, what does this mean in terms of the Red Book? That there were
two sources for this episode that a later redactor later merged? Are
we to start dividing the texts up into different original sources and
editorial notes?


-- 
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

Back to rec.arts.books.tolkien | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> - 2025-01-08 02:02 +0000
  Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Feanor <houseof.usher715@silomails.com> - 2025-10-09 19:49 +0200
    Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> - 2026-01-03 19:32 +0000
      Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? "O. Sharp" <ohh@panix.com> - 2026-01-04 21:40 +0000
        Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-01-05 08:11 -0800
          Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> - 2026-01-06 05:07 +0000
            Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-01-06 08:34 -0800
              Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> - 2026-01-07 01:30 +0000
                Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-01-07 08:49 -0800
                Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Stephan Seitz <stse+usenet@rootsland.net> - 2026-01-07 18:01 +0000
                Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-01-08 08:31 -0800
                Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> - 2026-01-12 02:43 +0000
                Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-01-12 08:19 -0800
                Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> - 2026-02-22 00:14 +0000
                Re: Did Frodo Repeat Himself? Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> - 2026-02-22 08:52 -0800

csiph-web