Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > nyc.transit > #39461

New cars treat us like cattle

Show all headers | View raw

https://nygroove.nyc/so-how-are-we-feeling-about-those-new-subway-cars/


So, how are we feeling about those new subway cars?
Virginia K. Smith
Dave Colon
Virginia K. Smith
,
Dave Colon
Jan 16, 2025
7 min

Team Groove is divided on the topic, so we decided to fight about it
So, how are we feeling about those new subway cars?
All this new technology and they couldn't think to put a physical map
anywhere? (Photo via Flickr/MTAPhotos)

Ask most people what they’d want to fix in the New York City subway
system, and the answer is probably some much longer version of “a whole
hell of a lot.” But if that change involves getting rid of
40-plus-year-old train cars that are slowing down large swaths of the
system? Cue the collective nostalgia meltdown.

That’s more or less what’s been happening since it was first (wrongly)
reported that 2025 was the year that the MTA would phase out the R46,
R62/62A and R68/R68A trains that have been in the system since the
1980s, best known for their orange-and-yellow color scheme and cozy
window-adjacent two-seater benches. What's actually happening is that
the agency is finally purchasing subway trains that will, in a couple of
years begin replacing the much older trains.

Some of this is about pure nostalgia for the retro trains and the
soon-to-be-eliminated “love seats” or “conversation seats,” yes. (Many
people are of the correct opinion that the window seat on one of the
two-seater benches is objectively the best possible seat on the train.)
But for some of us, it’s also about how much we hate the new subway cars
that are taking their place.

For those who haven’t ridden one yet, there are two versions of the new
R211 subway cars, one of which features an “open gangway” design that
allows riders to move freely between cars (more on that later). The new
cars feature modern updates including security cameras, digital signage,
wider doors, brighter lighting, generally more accessibility-friendly
design, and, crucially, modern signaling designed to provide faster and
more reliable service.

“Old train cars break down six times as frequently as new cars, so
replacing them is more than just a matter of aesthetics,” MTA chair
Janno Lieber said in a press release last month announcing the addition
of more desperately-needed new cars to the subway’s fleet.
RIP old friends. Some of us will miss you; not Dave though. (Photo via
Flickr/Guy Dickinson)

This is all well and good, but isn’t there room to acknowledge that we
need to retire those crusty old orange trains, while also exercising our
god-given right to complain about the new ones? Not according to some
people! Team Groove got into a minor scuffle over this last week on
Slack, and Dave told everyone “It’s like nostalgia for the MetroCard,
stupid and immature and pointlessly opposed to something because it’s
what you think is the only way to do things.”

I disagree! So much so that we decided this debate warranted its own
post. Yes, I have lots of baked-in nostalgia for the old trains, but as
a frequent rush hour commuter on the A/C line (where the new cars are
already regularly in the rotation), I’ve also got plenty of highly
specific complaints about the new trains that don’t make me some fuddy
duddy who opposes all change. My case against the new trains is as follows:
Virginia’s grievances against the new cars

Let’s start with the most obvious one first: ***fewer seats (30 on the
new cars versus 70 on the old ones)****

(BTW as a pratical matter there is also less standing room because poles
are put in lousy places and the chairs in the old trains allow for hand
placements.)

and more standing room are practical for accommodating as many commuters
as possible, sure, but they also make it far less likely that you can
snag a seat on a packed, hellish commute. It’s doable, but let’s not
pretend it doesn’t suck.

The endless blue bench (versus visually delineated seats on the old
cars) makes it more likely that people selfishly treat three-seater
benches as two-seaters, decreasing sitting space further.

If you thought I was done complaining about the specifics of the
seating, think again! The new train cars feature a few optional
fold-down ”flip seats” apiece — these are designed to accommodate
wheelchairs, which is of course a good thing. What’s less of a good
thing (and presumably an easily fixable problem) is the way these things
slam shut with a vengeance when people jump up to get off the train,
making an auditory effect that’s like a little gunshot at every stop.
Not great!

Digital screens only? What could go wrong! More than once I’ve been on a
car where all the newfangled ad banners and subway maps were glitching,
and since there’s not a single old-fashioned printed map anywhere to be
found in the new cars, that means commuters are stuck with no easy way
to check where the hell they’re actually going unless they’ve already
got a map or app downloaded on their phone, or are in a part of the
subway system that gets wifi service.

You’d think if the MTA is forcing everyone to stand they’d at least
provide enough poles to hold onto, but not so. The new cars have poles
concentrated near the main entrances, but essentially none towards the
ends of each car, meaning that on crowded morning commutes people
inefficiently pool themselves in front of the exits, with nothing to
hold onto in the ends of the car where there’s actually room to stand.

As for the open gangway cars: did no one consider the impacts of not
being able to escape a horrible smell? Look, things happen, and there’s
a reason that “don’t get onto the mysteriously empty subway car” is
canon to the point of cliche at this point. On the open gangway cars,
there’s no such option, and odors permeate the entire train (this isn’t
some hysterical hypothetical, I’ve personally experienced it), making an
existing problem much, much larger and more unavoidable than it
otherwise might have been.
Dave’s case in favor of them

Some of these things I think can be taken care of, others I think are
letting “We can’t do it in New York” get in the way of bringing in
transit improvements that are extremely normal for the rest of the world.

----------------------------------------------------------------

THIS CRAZY PERSON DOESN'T MAKE A SINGLE VALID POINT.

People have been saying “Oh no the smells” “oh no what if there’s a
crazy person” since the MTA announced it was finally bringing open
gangway subway trains to New York in 2015,

(THERE ARE NO GANGWAY TRAINS)

 so long ago my “Open gangway style” headline was fresh and timely
blogging. And look at that, I photoshopped international megastar PSY
into an open gangway car in Toronto, where they’re in regular use. Same
as they are in Paris and London and other cities that people go to and
come back here and say “Why can’t we have their system?” I am sure there
are sometimes unpleasant smells on those trains, and while New York
City’s trouble finding a way to treat the severely mentally ill and
homeless won’t end tomorrow, the existence of bad smells can’t result in
the kind of New York exceptionalism that insists “We can’t do it here.”
Especially because as my new Streetsblog colleague Nolan Hicks
previously pointed out, open gangway cars can be an important tool to
cut down on subway surfing because the train design makes it impossible
to get between cars and climb on top of trains. Open gangway cars
provide more room in every train, and the ability to walk through the
train also means you can get on anywhere and still wind up near an exit,
which is nice if you’re going to a station that just has one way out.

On the issue of seating and poles in each car, I can’t say I understand
the complaint

THEN YOU ARE STUPID AND THERE IS NO FURTHER REASON TO READ FURTHER

Back to nyc.transit | Previous | Next — Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

New cars treat us like cattle Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2026-02-06 17:54 -0500
  Re: New cars treat us like cattle Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2026-02-22 00:40 -0500
    Re: New cars treat us like cattle Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2026-02-22 01:04 -0500

csiph-web