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Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made!

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  Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made! Stuart Prescott <stuart@debian.org> - 2016-12-30 06:00 +0100
    Re: Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made! Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org> - 2016-12-30 07:00 +0100
      Re: Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made! Julian Andres Klode <jak@debian.org> - 2016-12-30 10:20 +0100
        Re: Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made! Stuart Prescott <stuart@debian.org> - 2016-12-30 14:30 +0100
    Re: Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made! Stuart Prescott <stuart@debian.org> - 2016-12-30 14:50 +0100
      Re: Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made! Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2017-01-04 17:40 +0100
    Re: [py3porters-devel] Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made! Daniel Kahn Gillmor <dkg@fifthhorseman.net> - 2017-01-02 23:10 +0100
      Re: [py3porters-devel] Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made! Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@debian.org> - 2017-01-03 01:50 +0100
        Re: [py3porters-devel] Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made! Daniel Kahn Gillmor <dkg@fifthhorseman.net> - 2017-01-03 05:40 +0100

#9114 — Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made!

Hi everyone,

one of the objectives for stretch was to reduce the number of Python 2 
packages that are installed in common scenarios, instead having the Python 3 
stack take over. The "standard task" within tasksel is a reasonable place to 
look.¹

Thanks to the recent work on reportbug and debianbts, this is now largely 
complete.

In a stretch chroot, install the standard task:²

# aptitude install ~prequired ~pimportant ~pstandard

and the only python packages installed are:

# aptitude search ~npython~i
i A dh-python
i A libpython-stdlib
i A libpython2.7
i A libpython2.7-minimal
i A libpython2.7-stdlib
i A libpython3-stdlib
i A libpython3.5-minimal
i A libpython3.5-stdlib
i   python
i   python-apt
i A python-apt-common
i   python-gpg
i   python-minimal
i   python2.7
i A python2.7-minimal
i A python3
i A python3-apt
i A python3-chardet
i A python3-debian
i A python3-debianbts
i   python3-gpg
i A python3-httplib2
i A python3-minimal
i A python3-pkg-resources
i A python3-pycurl
i A python3-pysimplesoap
i   python3-reportbug
i A python3-requests
i A python3-six
i A python3-urllib3
i A python3.5
i A python3.5-minimal

where the packages marked "A" (Automatically Installed) are there to satisfy 
dependencies only.

We see that:

python
python-apt
python-gpg
python-minimal
python2.7

are now only installed because they are marked as Priority: standard.


Question for discussion: Is Python 2 a tool that would be expected to be found 
on any linux machine and so should it be Priority: standard? Is Python 3? Is 
now the time to ask ftp-masters to change the overrides to move them to 
Priority: optional?

(My personal feeling is that none of the above packages should be Priority: 
standard, including Python 3)


The libpython2.7* packages are present because:

i   logrotate Recommends mailx                
i A mailutils Provides   mailx                
i A mailutils Depends    libpython2.7 (>= 2.7)

I don't know if mailutils can already use Python 3 instead of Python 2 or how 
it is actually using Python at all -- the build system will certainly need 
some work. Perhaps a keen Python 3 porter can investigate that as an opening 
move for stretch+1 (it's too late for stretch for that transition).

cheers
Stuart



① The standard task contains packages you'd expect to find on a linux machine 
such as `less`; yes, it also includes a mail-transport-agent and it probably 
shouldn't; no, let's not discuss that now.

② Unlike other tasks, the standard task is not defined as a list of packages 
but as this aptitude search pattern to find all packages that declare Priority: 
required, important or standard; aptitude will also then install packages of 
lower priority to satisfy the dependencies.

-- 
Stuart Prescott    http://www.nanonanonano.net/   stuart@nanonanonano.net
Debian Developer   http://www.debian.org/         stuart@debian.org
GPG fingerprint    90E2 D2C1 AD14 6A1B 7EBB 891D BBC1 7EBB 1396 F2F7

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#9115

On 30.12.2016 05:41, Stuart Prescott wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> one of the objectives for stretch was to reduce the number of Python 2 
> packages that are installed in common scenarios, instead having the Python 3 
> stack take over. The "standard task" within tasksel is a reasonable place to 
> look.¹
> 
> Thanks to the recent work on reportbug and debianbts, this is now largely 
> complete.
> 
> In a stretch chroot, install the standard task:²
> 
> # aptitude install ~prequired ~pimportant ~pstandard
> 
> and the only python packages installed are:
> 
> # aptitude search ~npython~i
> i A dh-python
> i A libpython-stdlib
> i A libpython2.7
> i A libpython2.7-minimal
> i A libpython2.7-stdlib
> i A libpython3-stdlib
> i A libpython3.5-minimal
> i A libpython3.5-stdlib
> i   python
> i   python-apt
> i A python-apt-common
> i   python-gpg
> i   python-minimal
> i   python2.7
> i A python2.7-minimal
> i A python3
> i A python3-apt
> i A python3-chardet
> i A python3-debian
> i A python3-debianbts
> i   python3-gpg
> i A python3-httplib2
> i A python3-minimal
> i A python3-pkg-resources
> i A python3-pycurl
> i A python3-pysimplesoap
> i   python3-reportbug
> i A python3-requests
> i A python3-six
> i A python3-urllib3
> i A python3.5
> i A python3.5-minimal
> 
> where the packages marked "A" (Automatically Installed) are there to satisfy 
> dependencies only.
> 
> We see that:
> 
> python
> python-apt
> python-gpg
> python-minimal
> python2.7
> 
> are now only installed because they are marked as Priority: standard.
> 
> 
> Question for discussion: Is Python 2 a tool that would be expected to be found 
> on any linux machine and so should it be Priority: standard? Is Python 3? Is 
> now the time to ask ftp-masters to change the overrides to move them to 
> Priority: optional?

I think it's time to move these to optional, and bump the priority of the
equivalent python3 packages. Should be done in the packages as well.

> (My personal feeling is that none of the above packages should be Priority: 
> standard, including Python 3)

I don't know the rationale for having the apt and gpg bindings as Priority
standard, but if these can be made optional, then the depending packages can be
made optional as well.

> The libpython2.7* packages are present because:
> 
> i   logrotate Recommends mailx                
> i A mailutils Provides   mailx                
> i A mailutils Depends    libpython2.7 (>= 2.7)
> 
> I don't know if mailutils can already use Python 3 instead of Python 2 or how 
> it is actually using Python at all -- the build system will certainly need 
> some work. Perhaps a keen Python 3 porter can investigate that as an opening 
> move for stretch+1 (it's too late for stretch for that transition).

while the code has some comments about python 3.0 it fails in the configury and
later building the extensions, so apparently it's not used, and not tested with
recent python3 versions.  I filed #849721 for that.

Otoh, logrotate could explicitly recommend bsd-mailx | mailx to avoid that
dependency.

I would prefer having stretch shipping with only one Python version in the base
task.

Matthias

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#9116

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 06:52:37AM +0100, Matthias Klose wrote:
> I don't know the rationale for having the apt and gpg bindings as Priority
> standard, but if these can be made optional, then the depending packages can be
> made optional as well.

python-apt is standard because it was used by apt-listchanges which is
standard, and nobody followed the transition to Python 3 in apt-listchanges
by switching the priorities in python-apt (2 should become optional, 3 standard).

-- 
Debian Developer - deb.li/jak | jak-linux.org - free software dev
                  |  Ubuntu Core Developer |
When replying, only quote what is necessary, and write each reply
directly below the part(s) it pertains to ('inline').  Thank you.

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#9117

On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 10:14:20 Julian Andres Klode wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 06:52:37AM +0100, Matthias Klose wrote:
> > I don't know the rationale for having the apt and gpg bindings as Priority
> > standard, but if these can be made optional, then the depending packages
> > can be made optional as well.
> 
> python-apt is standard because it was used by apt-listchanges which is
> standard, and nobody followed the transition to Python 3 in apt-listchanges
> by switching the priorities in python-apt (2 should become optional, 3
> standard).

While python-apt being Priority:standard is indeed a relic of the old apt-
listchanges dependency (I forgot to mention that relationship in my earlier 
mail, sorry), it is no longer useful or required for python3-apt to have its 
priority increased to match the new apt-listchanges. In the discussion in 
#758234, there is a consensus that it makes no sense to raise the priority of 
dependency packages since all the tools involved can already resolve the 
dependencies without requiring the priorities to be appropriately set.¹

Julian, as a python-apt maintainer, would you like to raise the appropriate 
bug against ftp.debian.org or are you happy for me to do this?

	override: python-apt:python/optional

cheers
Stuart


①  What remains to have priority inversion permitted (encouraged!) by Policy 
is a suitable patch; since Policy documents standard practice and it is 
already standard practice to permit priority inversion for dependencies, 
there's no reason to raise the priority of python3-apt.

-- 
Stuart Prescott    http://www.nanonanonano.net/   stuart@nanonanonano.net
Debian Developer   http://www.debian.org/         stuart@debian.org
GPG fingerprint    90E2 D2C1 AD14 6A1B 7EBB 891D BBC1 7EBB 1396 F2F7

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#9118

Dear -boot & -cd,

In re-reading #758234, I noticed a request that -boot and -cd be kept up to 
speed with priority changes that might have an impact on the installer.

In the thread starting at

	https://lists.debian.org/debian-python/2016/12/msg00070.html

we have been looking at whether Python 2 can finally be kicked out of the 
Standard task with only Python 3 being installed rather than both being 
installed as is currently the case.

The remaining binary (source) packages that need their priorities changed are:

* python (python-defaults)
* python2.7 (python2.7)
* python-apt (python-apt)
* python-gpg (gpgme1.0)

The relevant maintainers seem to be happy with these changes. (Upcoming 
python-defaults and python2.7 uploads will change the source packages; python-
apt and python-gpg already have 'optional' within the source package). Bugs 
asking the ftp team to change the overrides are ready to be filed.

Additionally, changed dependencies are needed in:

* logrotate (Recommends: mailx → bsd-mailx | mailx), #849743

Your comments on (and hopefully assent to) these changes would be welcome.

cheers
Stuart

(Please CC me in replies)


-- 
Stuart Prescott    http://www.nanonanonano.net/   stuart@nanonanonano.net
Debian Developer   http://www.debian.org/         stuart@debian.org
GPG fingerprint    90E2 D2C1 AD14 6A1B 7EBB 891D BBC1 7EBB 1396 F2F7

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#9134

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 12:30:12AM +1100, Stuart Prescott wrote:
>
>Dear -boot & -cd,
>
>In re-reading #758234, I noticed a request that -boot and -cd be kept up to 
>speed with priority changes that might have an impact on the installer.

ACK, thanks!

>In the thread starting at
>
>	https://lists.debian.org/debian-python/2016/12/msg00070.html
>
>we have been looking at whether Python 2 can finally be kicked out of the 
>Standard task with only Python 3 being installed rather than both being 
>installed as is currently the case.
>
>The remaining binary (source) packages that need their priorities changed are:
>
>* python (python-defaults)
>* python2.7 (python2.7)
>* python-apt (python-apt)
>* python-gpg (gpgme1.0)
>
>The relevant maintainers seem to be happy with these changes. (Upcoming 
>python-defaults and python2.7 uploads will change the source packages; python-
>apt and python-gpg already have 'optional' within the source package). Bugs 
>asking the ftp team to change the overrides are ready to be filed.
>
>Additionally, changed dependencies are needed in:
>
>* logrotate (Recommends: mailx → bsd-mailx | mailx), #849743
>
>Your comments on (and hopefully assent to) these changes would be welcome.

On behalf of the debian-cd team, I have no problems with what you're
pointing out.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.                                steve@einval.com
"Since phone messaging became popular, the young generation has lost the
 ability to read or write anything that is longer than one hundred and sixty
 characters."  -- Ignatios Souvatzis

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#9124 — Re: [py3porters-devel] Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made!

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On Thu 2016-12-29 23:41:39 -0500, Stuart Prescott wrote:
> one of the objectives for stretch was to reduce the number of Python 2
> packages that are installed in common scenarios, instead having the
> Python 3 stack take over. The "standard task" within tasksel is a
> reasonable place to look.¹
 [...]
> python-gpg
> python3-gpg

fwiw, python-gpg and python3-gpg should not be Priority: standard, and
they are indicated as such in the source packages.

   https://packages.qa.debian.org/g/gpgme1.0.html

indicates that they're marked that way due to override files, but i
don't think there'd be any objection from myself or any of the other
pkg-gnupg-maint team (cc'ed here) if those overrides were removed.

                --dkg

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#9125 — Re: [py3porters-devel] Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made!

Daniel Kahn Gillmor writes:
> On Thu 2016-12-29 23:41:39 -0500, Stuart Prescott wrote:
>> one of the objectives for stretch was to reduce the number of Python 2
>> packages that are installed in common scenarios, instead having the
>> Python 3 stack take over. The "standard task" within tasksel is a
>> reasonable place to look.¹
>  [...]
>> python-gpg
>> python3-gpg
>
> fwiw, python-gpg and python3-gpg should not be Priority: standard, and
> they are indicated as such in the source packages.
>
>    https://packages.qa.debian.org/g/gpgme1.0.html
>
> indicates that they're marked that way due to override files, but i
> don't think there'd be any objection from myself or any of the other
> pkg-gnupg-maint team (cc'ed here) if those overrides were removed.

There was an open bug about changing the overrides (#849903) and I just
set all packages built from gpgme1.0 to "Priority: optional".

I don't think there is any reason for the lib*-dev packages to be at
Priority: extra?

Ansgar

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#9126 — Re: [py3porters-devel] Python 2 in the default installation -- progress made!

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On Mon 2017-01-02 19:47:00 -0500, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
> There was an open bug about changing the overrides (#849903) and I just
> set all packages built from gpgme1.0 to "Priority: optional".
>
> I don't think there is any reason for the lib*-dev packages to be at
> Priority: extra?

I read:

https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-priorities

as suggesting that -dev packages are generally more "extra-ish" than
"optional", but then again, i think of workstations set up for software
development as having "specialized requirements" compared with what most
computers might reasonably want to install:

>>   optional
>> 
>>      (In a sense everything that isn't required is optional, but that's
>>      not what is meant here.) This is all the software that you might
>>      reasonably want to install if you didn't know what it was and don't
>>      have specialized requirements. This is a much larger system and
>>      includes the X Window System, a full TeX distribution, and many
>>      applications. Note that optional packages should not conflict with
>>      each other.
>> 
>>   extra
>> 
>>      This contains all packages that conflict with others with required,
>>      important, standard or optional priorities, or are only likely to
>>      be useful if you already know what they are or have specialized
>>      requirements (such as packages containing only detached debugging
>>      symbols).

I personally develop software, and i maintain many computers (for
myself, even), and i definitely *don't* want most of my computers to
include the -dev packages.

I'm happy to go with whatever the ftp-master team prefers, though. :)

     --dkg

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