Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.sys.mac.system > #137241 > unrolled thread

Remote Backup Strategy

Back to article view | Back to comp.sys.mac.system

Contents

  Remote Backup Strategy JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2021-07-13 01:59 -0400
    Re: Remote Backup Strategy nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2021-07-13 09:41 -0400
    Re: Remote Backup Strategy Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2021-07-13 10:02 -0400
      Re: Remote Backup Strategy JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2021-07-13 16:00 -0400
        Re: Remote Backup Strategy nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2021-07-13 16:13 -0400
        Re: Remote Backup Strategy Lewis <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> - 2021-07-13 20:47 +0000
        Re: Remote Backup Strategy Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> - 2021-07-13 18:58 -0400
          Re: Remote Backup Strategy Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> - 2021-07-13 16:01 -0700
          Re: Remote Backup Strategy nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2021-07-13 19:15 -0400
    Re: Remote Backup Strategy Dr Eberhard Lisse <nospam@lisse.NA> - 2021-07-13 17:34 +0200
    Re: Remote Backup Strategy JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2021-07-19 20:26 -0400
      Re: Remote Backup Strategy JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2021-07-20 02:59 -0400
        Re: Remote Backup Strategy JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> - 2021-07-20 20:31 -0400

#137241 — Remote Backup Strategy

Server: Snow Leopard, XServe system disk: 160GB.

mac:  2013 Trash Can, High Sierra.  room for 3 move M.2 SSDs in external
cabinet.

Due to regulatory capture of CRTC in Canada, I have no Internet in terms
of using remote cloud services. (upload speed below 1mbps).


The collapse in Miami has reminded me that for any type of emergency, I
need to bring my disk drives with me because they'll never allow me back
in building.

I know that making a DMG from a running system disk is problematic and
requires a lot of fixing up after the fact to be able to open it (even
though the creation of .DMG appeared to work).

Since I have time machine on the Xserve, I can just pickup "Latest"
from it whenever I make manual backups to the Mac.

Generally, my connection  betwene Mac and Xserve is via AFP. (Snow
Leopard has very old SMB and I tried it once and got corrupted files).

I am leaning on utiling disk utility to create a .DMG on the  Mac's SSD.
Single file that won't clutter my Mac's file syste, file indexing,
spotlight etc.

and a .DMG of HFS+ system can be stored on APFS without problem.

Sicne a time machine has a gazillion file hard links, is it correct to
state the .DMG will not have any issues and will just backup the
"Latest" directory structure with each file in it backed with its
contents?  (aka: not just an empty file with link to original without
original contents backed up).

[toc] | [next] | [standalone]

#137246

In article <cZ9HI.5338$uj5.3947@fx03.iad>, JF Mezei
<jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> The collapse in Miami has reminded me that for any type of emergency, I
> need to bring my disk drives with me because they'll never allow me back
> in building.

use the cloud.

> I know that making a DMG from a running system disk is problematic and
> requires a lot of fixing up after the fact to be able to open it (even
> though the creation of .DMG appeared to work).

it isn't.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#137247

On 2021 Jul 13, JF Mezei wrote
(in article <cZ9HI.5338$uj5.3947@fx03.iad>):

> Server: Snow Leopard, XServe system disk: 160GB.
>
> mac: 2013 Trash Can, High Sierra. room for 3 move M.2 SSDs in external
> cabinet.
>
> Due to regulatory capture of CRTC in Canada, I have no Internet in terms
> of using remote cloud services. (upload speed below 1mbps).
>
> The collapse in Miami has reminded me that for any type of emergency, I
> need to bring my disk drives with me because they'll never allow me back
> in building.

in the event of the building collapsing you’ll have bigger problems.

However...

1 attach external drive via USB3 or Thunderbolt to the 2013, mount network 
volumes, clone over using standard backup software of your choice, remove 
external drive, put it is off-site storage, get another external drive, 
repeat untill all network and local volumes backed up. Using Time Machine is 
not necessarily the best way. For one thing, it’s slow.
>
>
> I know that making a DMG from a running system disk is problematic and
> requires a lot of fixing up after the fact to be able to open it (even
> though the creation of .DMG appeared to work).
>
> Since I have time machine on the Xserve, I can just pickup "Latest"
> from it whenever I make manual backups to the Mac.
>
> Generally, my connection betwene Mac and Xserve is via AFP. (Snow
> Leopard has very old SMB and I tried it once and got corrupted files).
>
> I am leaning on utiling disk utility to create a .DMG on the Mac's SSD.
> Single file that won't clutter my Mac's file syste, file indexing,
> spotlight etc.
>
> and a .DMG of HFS+ system can be stored on APFS without problem.
>
> Sicne a time machine has a gazillion file hard links, is it correct to
> state the .DMG will not have any issues and will just backup the
> "Latest" directory structure with each file in it backed with its
> contents? (aka: not just an empty file with link to original without
> original contents backed up).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#137254

On 2021-07-13 10:02, Wolffan wrote:

> in the event of the building collapsing you’ll have bigger problems.

A whole buhch of people had intact condos and were not allowed back to
retrieve valuables because the mayor decided recovering dead bodies was
more important and imploded the remainder of building.

If you're in a part that collapses, you have nothing to worry about.
But if a disaster strikes and you are still alive and standing in yoru
appartment, how you evacuate matters, once you know you'll never be
allowed back and the government will destroy your property.


> repeat untill all network and local volumes backed up. Using Time Machine is 
> not necessarily the best way. For one thing, it’s slow.

The problem is that the system drive is not easy to backup. Technically,
you are support to boot from another OS instance (recovery partition
etc) to a backup of the system drive.  But Time Machine has the ability
to do such a backup without needing to reboot the server.

(building a DMG image of the system disk will APPEAR to work, but when
you try to open it, it finds errors that require some work to correct
before you can mount it - this is because files change while you do the
DMG backup).

Since I already have time machine running on the server, I can then use
one of the backups done in "batch" by Time Machine and copy that to the
Mac. This way, in an emergency, I only have 2 boxes of drives to pickup
from same location (the Mac). (spinning drives and SSD drives).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#137255

In article <%hmHI.12053$Oj5.10658@fx28.iad>, JF Mezei
<jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> 
> The problem is that the system drive is not easy to backup.

yes it is. very easy, actually. 

> Technically,
> you are support to boot from another OS instance (recovery partition
> etc) to a backup of the system drive.  But Time Machine has the ability
> to do such a backup without needing to reboot the server.

theoretically, booting from another volume and cloning the original
drive is best, but it's not required.

> (building a DMG image of the system disk will APPEAR to work, but when
> you try to open it, it finds errors that require some work to correct
> before you can mount it - this is because files change while you do the
> DMG backup).

nope.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#137256

In message <%hmHI.12053$Oj5.10658@fx28.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> The problem is that the system drive is not easy to backup.

Complete and utter nonsense, as you well know.

> (building a DMG image of the system disk

Is the dumbest thing to try, so no surprised it's what you are doing.

A Time Machine backyp is 1) bootable and 2) restores your system as it
was onto a new machine or a blank drive on an old machine.

> Since I already have time machine running on the server, I can then use
> one of the backups done in "batch" by Time Machine and copy that to the
> Mac.

No, this is not how you do ANYTHING.

> This way, in an emergency, I only have 2 boxes of drives to pickup
> from same location (the Mac). (spinning drives and SSD drives).

All you need is you Time machine disk to restore your system's boot
drive though of course you should have off-site backup as well, though
that will take more time to restore. If you have more storage, that
should also be backed up off-site.

-- 
Come on. Somewhere at the edge of the bell curve is the girl for me.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#137258

On 2021 Jul 13, JF Mezei wrote
(in article <%hmHI.12053$Oj5.10658@fx28.iad>):

> On 2021-07-13 10:02, Wolffan wrote:
>
> > in the event of the building collapsing you’ll have bigger problems.
>
> A whole buhch of people had intact condos and were not allowed back to
> retrieve valuables because the mayor decided recovering dead bodies was
> more important and imploded the remainder of building.
>
> If you're in a part that collapses, you have nothing to worry about.
> But if a disaster strikes and you are still alive and standing in yoru
> appartment, how you evacuate matters, once you know you'll never be
> allowed back and the government will destroy your property.
>
> > repeat untill all network and local volumes backed up. Using Time Machine is
> > not necessarily the best way. For one thing, it’s slow.
>
> The problem is that the system drive is not easy to backup.

The system drive is trivially easy to back up.

1 Time Machine; I don’t recommend using. ™ by itself, it takes too long 
to run the initial backup, but you can create a bootable copy of the system 
volume using ™ and very little effort.

2 One of the cloners, such as Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper!. I use CCC, 
and have for years. CCC has a problem, fixable, with creating boot volumes 
with Big Sur, but no problems with boot volumes and Catalina or earlier. My 
personal Macs are all on Catalina or earlier, some office Macs are Big Surs. 
Yes, we can generate bootable clones using CCC on Big Sur machines.

3 One of the dedicated backup utilities, such as Acronis.
> Technically,
> you are support to boot from another OS instance (recovery partition
> etc) to a backup of the system drive. But Time Machine has the ability
> to do such a backup without needing to reboot the server.

CCC sets up the recovery partition on pre-Big Surs without a reboot...

>
>
> (building a DMG image of the system disk will APPEAR to work, but when
> you try to open it, it finds errors that require some work to correct
> before you can mount it - this is because files change while you do the
> DMG backup).

don’t do a DMG.
>
>
> Since I already have time machine running on the server, I can then use
> one of the backups done in "batch" by Time Machine and copy that to the
> Mac. This way, in an emergency, I only have 2 boxes of drives to pickup
> from same location (the Mac). (spinning drives and SSD drives).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#137259

On 2021-07-13 3:58 p.m., Wolffan wrote:
> On 2021 Jul 13, JF Mezei wrote
> (in article <%hmHI.12053$Oj5.10658@fx28.iad>):
> 
>> On 2021-07-13 10:02, Wolffan wrote:
>>
>>> in the event of the building collapsing you’ll have bigger problems.
>>
>> A whole buhch of people had intact condos and were not allowed back to
>> retrieve valuables because the mayor decided recovering dead bodies was
>> more important and imploded the remainder of building.
>>
>> If you're in a part that collapses, you have nothing to worry about.
>> But if a disaster strikes and you are still alive and standing in yoru
>> appartment, how you evacuate matters, once you know you'll never be
>> allowed back and the government will destroy your property.
>>
>>> repeat untill all network and local volumes backed up. Using Time Machine is
>>> not necessarily the best way. For one thing, it’s slow.
>>
>> The problem is that the system drive is not easy to backup.
> 
> The system drive is trivially easy to back up.
> 
> 1 Time Machine; I don’t recommend using. ™ by itself, it takes too long
> to run the initial backup, but you can create a bootable copy of the system
> volume using ™ and very little effort.

Any initial backup is going to take a fair amount of time.

> 
> 2 One of the cloners, such as Carbon Copy Cloner or SuperDuper!. I use CCC,
> and have for years. CCC has a problem, fixable, with creating boot volumes
> with Big Sur, but no problems with boot volumes and Catalina or earlier. My
> personal Macs are all on Catalina or earlier, some office Macs are Big Surs.
> Yes, we can generate bootable clones using CCC on Big Sur machines.
> 
> 3 One of the dedicated backup utilities, such as Acronis.
>> Technically,
>> you are support to boot from another OS instance (recovery partition
>> etc) to a backup of the system drive. But Time Machine has the ability
>> to do such a backup without needing to reboot the server.
> 
> CCC sets up the recovery partition on pre-Big Surs without a reboot...
> 
>>
>>
>> (building a DMG image of the system disk will APPEAR to work, but when
>> you try to open it, it finds errors that require some work to correct
>> before you can mount it - this is because files change while you do the
>> DMG backup).
> 
> don’t do a DMG.
>>
>>
>> Since I already have time machine running on the server, I can then use
>> one of the backups done in "batch" by Time Machine and copy that to the
>> Mac. This way, in an emergency, I only have 2 boxes of drives to pickup
>> from same location (the Mac). (spinning drives and SSD drives).
> 
> 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#137260

In article <0001HW.269E522B0F74871A700004CDB38F@news.supernews.com>,
Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:

> 
> 1 Time Machine; I don¹t recommend using.  by itself, it takes too long 
> to run the initial backup, 

that only needs to be done once. let it run overnight. no big deal.

subsequent backups are fast.

> but you can create a bootable copy of the system 
> volume using  and very little effort.

there's nothing to create. directly attached time machine drives have
been bootable since lion. 

network time machine drives use a sparse bundle disk image, which are
obviously not bootable. 



> don¹t do a DMG.

it's fine, especially for network backups. for directly attached, it
doesn't make too much sense, but can be useful in some cases.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#137249

JF,

I would not mess too much with the innards of TimeMachine. If you set
it up right it'll work fine.


I have on both my practice iMac and the trashcan at the house a WiFi
Time Machine each, and a 4-TB USB hard drive each.  On the trashcan for
test purposes even a second USB drive.

Speedtest shows:

	 Hosted by Telecom Namibia (Windhoek) [0.32 km]: 74.348 ms
	 Download: 12.42 Mbit/s
	 Upload: 7.35 Mbit/s

I use Unison file synchronizer to sync my home directory (and a few
others) between the trashcan (as a "hub") the practice iMac, my two
laptops and a Mini & an iMac outside of the country.

Once the first backup is done Unison figures out what to do (changes) by
itself, you can use the GUI to keep an eye on things but it is so
reliable that I hardly ever use it in favor of the CLI which I kick off
by way of some bash scripts/macros.

Then some more bash scripts to backup the practice system (running on my
secretary's Windows 10) using FirebirdSQL's tools and besides parking
those on the internal HD (where Time Machine gets them) also putting
them onto an external HD and SCPing them to my trashcan plus onto an old
XServe (80 Gig, 10.5.8, up 461 days) in the local Telco's data center.

These scripts are wired into the launchd (via Lingon X) and so run at
night.  The backups are restored into a virgin practice system once in a
while by IT Support to confirm restorability (which is an important
point).

When I had a serious hard disk crash in the practice a while back it
took an afternoon to get to the same state, just needed to update OSX to
latest and Time Machine worked its magic via the Install/Migration
Assistant. No drama whatsoever.

When the Windoze hard disk crashed, IT Support replaced it, reinstalled
W10 from scratch, we loaded the backups, tweaked a little here and there
and added the day's worth of patients from the paper files.  No drama
whatsoever.


When I get a new laptop, I also install from its predecessor's Time
Machine, but once in a while I do it manually from scratch (from my
handbook to see whether what's in there is still current) and then use
Unison to sort out the home directory. Valuable exercise.

There are very small 1-4 TB external USB SSDs these days, I have one for
the travel lap top of 1 TB USB-C and a little bigger than a match box.

I run that as Time Machine before I travel (and take it with in a
separate bag), never mind the WiFi one, so if you are worried get one
like that, run TM before you leave the house and take with, but then of
course in Canada the houses are build to spec :-)-O so I wouldn't worry
too much.

If the XServe dies, buy an ARM Mini :-)-O

Get Starlink :-)-O

el



On 13/07/2021 07:59, JF Mezei wrote:
> Server: Snow Leopard, XServe system disk: 160GB.
> 
> mac:  2013 Trash Can, High Sierra.  room for 3 move M.2 SSDs in external
> cabinet.
> 
> Due to regulatory capture of CRTC in Canada, I have no Internet in terms
> of using remote cloud services. (upload speed below 1mbps).
> 
> 
> The collapse in Miami has reminded me that for any type of emergency, I
> need to bring my disk drives with me because they'll never allow me back
> in building.
> 
> I know that making a DMG from a running system disk is problematic and
> requires a lot of fixing up after the fact to be able to open it (even
> though the creation of .DMG appeared to work).
> 
> Since I have time machine on the Xserve, I can just pickup "Latest"
> from it whenever I make manual backups to the Mac.
> 
> Generally, my connection  betwene Mac and Xserve is via AFP. (Snow
> Leopard has very old SMB and I tried it once and got corrupted files).
> 
> I am leaning on utiling disk utility to create a .DMG on the  Mac's SSD.
> Single file that won't clutter my Mac's file syste, file indexing,
> spotlight etc.
> 
> and a .DMG of HFS+ system can be stored on APFS without problem.
> 
> Sicne a time machine has a gazillion file hard links, is it correct to
> state the .DMG will not have any issues and will just backup the
> "Latest" directory structure with each file in it backed with its
> contents?  (aka: not just an empty file with link to original without
> original contents backed up).
> 

-- 
To email me replace 'nospam' with 'el'

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#137308

Update:

Got new SSD today.

Disk Utility:
Node 1 cannot create a .DMG on Node 1 from a folder residing on Node 2.

but

Node 2 can create a .DMG residing on Node 1 from a folder residing on
Node 2.

So my desktop which has the SSD cannot backup onto the SSD a folder
residing on server.

And Server cannot see the APFS SSD because the connection is via AFP,
buit it is able to create éDMG on the deskup's spinning HFS+ drives.

So I can use that as a means to backup the TimeMachine backup on my
server onto my desktop and then copy the .DMG to the SSD from the desktop.

I can understand needing direct access to a drive to do a full drive
backup, but to image a folder, I would have though accessing via AFP
would have worked. (BTW, it lets me set up the process, but fails upon
starting about a file doesn't exist).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#137309

Update:

Snow Leopard Disk Utility has been unable to "image of folder"  to a
.DMG on another node via AFP  AND to a local drive.

Suspect that the tricks used by Time Machine to create the folder of its
backups (where one copy of file exists multiple times) may overwhelm
Disk Utility.

So I calculated the size (73GB) of the system disk backup in Time
Machine, and created a blank .DMG and now using finder to do the local
copy (after which I will copy the .éDMG over to my desktop's new drive).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#137315

Another update:

When trying to create a .DMG on remote node when the source folder was a
Time Machine backup would fail after a few minutes during which the
created .DMG remain at 1 MB.

Today, I was able to backup a 20GB filder on node 1 using Disk Util on
node 1 with .DMG created on node 2 and it worked.  Initial allocation
was 20MB and it then grew to 7GB. (original was 20GB but used
"compressed" when creating the .DMG).

[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]

Back to top | Article view | comp.sys.mac.system

csiph-web