Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems'

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From	T <T@invalid.invalid>
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Subject	Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems'
Date	Thu, 16 Jul 2020 22:35:33 -0700
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On 2020-07-16 21:47, VanguardLH wrote:
> T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Folks will leave Windows when enough of they applications they need
>> are ported over.  M$ rules the universe when it comes to applications
>> and some outer ring of hell when it comes to quality and security.
> 
> I think "catch 'em early" works better.  School have and still do train
> students on Windows.  Chromebooks have penetrated schools more then
> Linux.  Users that, by choice, switch to Linux sometime later in their
> lives are doing so due to curiosity, training, job requirements, using
> the best platform for a critical task, or enlarge their expertise.
> That's why Linux penetration has only been about 2% of the consumer PC
> market.  There already is good penetration into commercial use.
> 
> When schools are predominatly training students in an OS then the market
> penetration goes up.  The students take with them what they learned.
> Microsoft learned that long ago.  So did Apple.  With so many Linux
> variants and only a few commercial vendors (e.g., Redhat), free is not a
> sufficient reason for mass migration to Linux.  Get a gradually larger
> student population to take Linux expertise into their homes and
> workplace.  Capture the minds and hearts of future computer users.  Is
> Linux deployed in pre-college schools for getting students intimate with
> that OS?
> 
> http://linuxfederation.com/linux-part-school-education
> (Yeah, it's a blog, so no datestamp as typical of blogs.)
> 
> https://opensource.com/article/18/3/linux-forward-schools
> 
> For well-rounded computer eduction, students should really be exposed to
> multiple operating systems.  Learn 'em, and let 'em choose.
> 
> However, businesses and even schools need support from the OS vendor.
> Free doesn't include technical support.  Those institutions don't look
> firstly at the cost of a license.  They look for support and its cost.
> Not having robust support is costly.  In-house training still has costs
> and adds delay to acquire expertise.  Like buying a printer, you figure
> the Cost of Ownership is in the rate of use of the consumables (paper,
> ink), and lastly consider the cost of the printer.  The cost of OS
> licenses is never discussed when we plan deployment of hosts, and
> supporting them.  The loss of use for a critical business app or suite
> due to lack of support far exceeds free versus paid OS or software.
> Cobol programmers are in high demand ($75K/year average base pay),
> because colleges stopped teaching it long ago, so there aren't many
> Cobol programmers around after attribtion of old farts that have retired
> died off.  Same for Fortran nowadays ($80K/year average base salary).
> Companies are willing to pay for the expertise that is hard to find.
> They couldn't give a gnat's fart about the costs for Cobol compiler
> licenses.  Losing a critical business program due to no support costs
> way more, maybe even cause the company's demise.
> 
> I have a sneaking suspicion that Microsoft is planning a migration to a
> Linux/Windows hybrid kernel with a Windows GUI.  After all, Windows NT,
> and up, which had an NT-based kernel still carried along the familiar
> desktop GUI from the 9x/DOS frankenjob GUI.  First it was Linux in their
> Azure cloud service.  Then they began releasing apps for Android and
> Linux.  They rolled in a Linux compatibility layer (Windows Subsystem
> for Linux, or WSL, but no Linux kernel code) to run Linux binary
> executables.  Rolling in subsystems into Windows isn't new.  NTFS is a
> file subsystem, as are FAT, exFAT, and CDFS.  WSL v2 was announced May
> 2019 which moved to a real Linux kernel (as a subset of Hyper-V
> features).  In 2016, WSL only provided an Ubuntu image. the Fall
> Creators Update in Oct 2017 move to SUSE images.  With WSL v2 in May
> 2019, Linux support moved to a Hyper-V VM-based backend instead of the
> system-call adaption (compatibility) layer.  We've been familiar with
> VMMs (Virtual Machine Managers) using virtual machines running guest
> OSes on Windows (or visa versa on Linux) for a long time.  Microsoft
> decided to use the Hyper-V VMM.  They wanted a kernel-mode model instead
> of user-mode solutions.  Because of the extremely high adoption of
> Windows versus Linux, there has been concern that WSL could be a way for
> Microsoft to "embrace, extend, and extinguish Linux".
> 
> At first, WSL was available only for Pro and Enterprise editions of
> Windows 10 x64.  On July 2019, they granted its used on Home editions.
> I run optionalfeatures.exe (run with admin permissionsto effect
> changes),  scroll down, and WSL is listed.  I haven't yet played with
> WSL, so it's currently disabled.
> 
> https://betanews.com/2018/03/06/debian-linux-windows/
> 
> "I am of the opinion that if you want to run an operating system based
> on that open source kernel, then you should just do so natively -- not
> on top of Windows."
> 
> Well, that is not accurate.  Hyper-V (a native hypervisor) is a VMM but
> it does *NOT* run in user-mode to manage VMs.  It is a kernel-mode
> service.  Probably because the Linux images are represented as "apps" in
> Microsoft's store is why that author thinks it is an app running atop of
> Windows.
> 
> "Hyper-V implements isolation of virtual machines in terms of a
> partition."
> 
> That's not a portion of an HDD or SDD where sectors are allocated in a
> group for use by an OS or data.  That's a hypervisor partition.  IBM
> mainframes 30+ years ago used similar hypervisors with OS isolation
> partitions.  I was helping the sysadmin migrate to a new version of VSE,
> MVS, or VM by installing and configuring the new version of the OS in a
> different partition that was not accessible to the users.  When we were
> ready, and late at night when the users were gone and after announcing
> the switch (because any users connected to the OS version in the old
> partition would get disconnected), we swapped which was the primary OS
> partition.  The users came in and found a new version of the OS was
> ready.  If there was a problem, we could switch back to the old OS
> partition.
> 
> OS partition (Hyper-V) hierarchy
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Hyper-V.png/675px-Hyper-V.png
> 
> Yes, every hypervisor is itself an OS, but the working Windows image and
> Linux image are not "running atop Windows".  Users aren't using the
> Hyper-V OS for their work.  They're using the VM of Windows managed by
> Hyper-V.  Well, that's how it works for the server version.  Only admins
> go into the Hyper-V OS to configure it.  That's a distant memory since I
> haven't looked at Hyper-V for years.
> 

My experience has been different:

When I was a youngster, the colleges trained on Apple.
The minute grads hit industry, they switched to Windows.

And my current experience with small business I have
constantly tried to figure out how to get folks on
Linux.  It is virtually impossible, as the apps they
need only run in Windows.

It is the apps the customer cares about.  They could
care less if they were run int Flying Zucchini OS, if
it ran their apps.

I know this to be the case as my customer SELDOM know
what OS they are running.

Also, the recent computer science grads I have come
across make my head spin.  They know virtually nothing
about computers or programming.  Seriously, they barely
know what a mouse is.  And they are in debt up to the
asses with student loans.

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Thread

Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2020-07-14 08:39 -0400
  Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-15 13:42 -0500
    Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> - 2020-07-15 19:48 +0100
    Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2020-07-16 09:37 -0400
      Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 14:19 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2020-07-18 12:18 -0400
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-18 20:46 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-18 23:40 -0400
    Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 11:35 -0700
      Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 13:28 -0700
      Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 16:01 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2020-07-16 17:37 -0400
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 18:12 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2020-07-16 19:31 -0400
              Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 01:29 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-17 09:55 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 17:52 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2020-07-17 10:28 -0400
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 14:42 -0700
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 18:33 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 18:35 -0700
              Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 23:47 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 22:35 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 02:54 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-17 15:47 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-17 12:31 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> - 2020-07-18 02:18 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-18 02:28 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:30 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2020-07-17 22:06 -0600
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:33 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-18 02:09 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:30 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:26 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-18 02:09 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> - 2020-07-18 13:04 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-18 11:57 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> - 2020-07-19 16:11 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-18 13:54 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-18 09:51 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-18 11:58 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-18 17:30 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-18 12:48 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-18 18:29 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 19:10 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:29 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 14:06 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 19:32 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-18 02:21 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:23 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-18 01:37 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> - 2020-07-18 09:16 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-18 13:57 -0700
                General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-17 15:31 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-17 15:55 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 12:49 -0700
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-18 00:13 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> - 2020-07-18 02:23 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-18 02:34 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2020-07-17 14:56 -0500
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-18 00:15 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-18 10:39 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-18 14:00 -0700
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-18 14:07 -0700
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-19 01:28 -0700
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-19 15:09 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-20 05:35 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-17 12:31 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 01:15 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-17 02:59 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-17 10:27 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-17 10:50 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-17 17:20 +0100
      Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> - 2020-07-16 16:04 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-16 19:08 -0400
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> - 2020-07-16 19:06 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2020-07-16 20:33 -0500
              Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 23:49 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 22:36 -0700
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> - 2020-07-17 08:45 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 12:50 -0700
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-17 15:59 -0400
    Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-16 20:17 +0100
      Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 15:22 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-16 22:26 +0100
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2020-07-16 18:15 -0500
          OT: Disable line wrap for long lines (was Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop ...) VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 03:10 -0500
            Re: OT: Disable line wrap for long lines (was Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop ...) Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2020-07-17 14:46 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-17 09:35 +0100
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-19 08:19 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-19 16:39 +0100
  Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' John Doe <always.look@message.header> - 2020-07-15 19:55 +0000

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