Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems'

Subject	Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems'
Newsgroups	alt.windows7.general, alt.comp.os.windows-10, comp.sys.intel, comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips
References	<ucOdnUIvQa7mOpDCnZ2dnUU7-VnNnZ2d@giganews.com> <vpdqta4wyken$.dlg@v.nguard.lh> <z7mdnX3G1faCxY3CnZ2dnUU7-QnNnZ2d@giganews.com> <xnisc720w19l.dlg@v.nguard.lh>
From	Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com>
Date	2020-07-18 12:18 -0400
Message-ID	<ApudnW8qtLZOvY7CnZ2dnUU7-cfNnZ2d@giganews.com> (permalink)

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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On 7/16/2020 3:19 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Already pointed out: your "none of which are being used" is wrong.  It
> is being used.  Video games use it, and those are not rare on Windows
> platforms.  Any game using DirectX 12 are utilizing AVX2.  Scientific,
> statistical, financial, encryption, and other  programs can use it.  Any
> program using .NET Framework can use AVX.  The latest versions of
> Prime95 are optimized to use AVX.  While it is used to stress test, that
> was not its original or current intent which was to discover prime
> numbers.  Is prime hunting something that home users do?  Of course not,
> but it illustrates AVX *is* used.

No, there is a difference between "are utilizing" and "can use". You 
used both terms in different sentences up above, probably because you're 
not actually sure which one it is, and you wanted to CYA.

"Are utilizing" implies that the games have no choice in the matter, and 
they are using AVX even if they don't know it. This would presumably 
mean that AVX is being used within the DirectX 12 API itself, and 
operates in the background regardless of direct utilization by the game 
itself.

That is not how the DX12 API operates. It is a bare-metal API, allowing 
the games themselves to control most low-level aspects of the visual 
production. This is unlike DX11 the previous API, which was more 
hands-on, controlling the low-level aspects. I could see if DX11 had 
been further developed, they perhaps might have started to use AVX 
within the API itself to help some aspects of performance. But they went 
in the completely opposite direction with DX12, I really don't see how 
AVX benefits the DX12 low-level API, as it's mainly just a series of 
calls to the GPU. For DX12, the "can use" AVX is the appropriate term, 
not the "are utilizing".

But even within the game itself over the level of the API, AVX 
utilization is very rare. Games could use AVX even under DX11 or even 
DX9 or 10 beforehand, but it just didn't use it in the API. There was no 
prohibition of using AVX within the application itself. These days they 
are more likely to pass off most FP calculations off to the GPU than to 
try to do it within the CPU anymore, so AVX is dead in the water.

> https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/stress-test-cpu-pc-guide,5461-2.html
> "By default, Prime95 automatically selects the newest instruction set
> extension, such as AVX, AVX2, or even AVX-512."
> 
> Your claim AVX is not used is false.

On the contrary, this exactly proves my point. Torvalds was complaining 
about how it's only being used in benchmarks but no real apps. Prime95 
is exactly an example of a benchmark and stress testing app. Nobody is 
actually using Prime95 for anything other than stress testing and 
benchmarking. It's not like as if you're going to be finding any new 
prime numbers with a PC anymore, those have now firmly entered the realm 
of supercomputers/HPC.

	Yousuf Khan

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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2020-07-14 08:39 -0400
  Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-15 13:42 -0500
    Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> - 2020-07-15 19:48 +0100
    Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2020-07-16 09:37 -0400
      Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 14:19 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Yousuf Khan <bbbl67@spammenot.yahoo.com> - 2020-07-18 12:18 -0400
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-18 20:46 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-18 23:40 -0400
    Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 11:35 -0700
      Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 13:28 -0700
      Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 16:01 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2020-07-16 17:37 -0400
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 18:12 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2020-07-16 19:31 -0400
              Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 01:29 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-17 09:55 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 17:52 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art@gmail.com> - 2020-07-17 10:28 -0400
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 14:42 -0700
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 18:33 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 18:35 -0700
              Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 23:47 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 22:35 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 02:54 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-17 15:47 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-17 12:31 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> - 2020-07-18 02:18 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-18 02:28 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:30 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Jeff Barnett <jbb@notatt.com> - 2020-07-17 22:06 -0600
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:33 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-18 02:09 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:30 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:26 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-18 02:09 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> - 2020-07-18 13:04 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-18 11:57 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> - 2020-07-19 16:11 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-18 13:54 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-18 09:51 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-18 11:58 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-18 17:30 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-18 12:48 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-18 18:29 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 19:10 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:29 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 14:06 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 19:32 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-18 02:21 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 22:23 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-18 01:37 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> - 2020-07-18 09:16 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-18 13:57 -0700
                General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-17 15:31 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-17 15:55 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 12:49 -0700
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-18 00:13 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') Brian Gregory <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> - 2020-07-18 02:23 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-18 02:34 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2020-07-17 14:56 -0500
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-18 00:15 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-18 10:39 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-18 14:00 -0700
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-18 14:07 -0700
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-19 01:28 -0700
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-19 15:09 +0100
                Re: General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems') T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-20 05:35 -0700
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2020-07-17 12:31 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 01:15 -0500
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-17 02:59 -0400
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-17 10:27 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-17 10:50 +0100
                Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-17 17:20 +0100
      Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> - 2020-07-16 16:04 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-16 19:08 -0400
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> - 2020-07-16 19:06 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2020-07-16 20:33 -0500
              Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 23:49 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-16 22:36 -0700
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Rene Lamontagne <rlamont@shaw.ca> - 2020-07-17 08:45 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2020-07-17 12:50 -0700
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2020-07-17 15:59 -0400
    Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-16 20:17 +0100
      Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-16 15:22 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2020-07-16 22:26 +0100
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2020-07-16 18:15 -0500
          OT: Disable line wrap for long lines (was Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop ...) VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-17 03:10 -0500
            Re: OT: Disable line wrap for long lines (was Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop ...) Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> - 2020-07-17 14:46 -0500
        Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-17 09:35 +0100
          Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' VanguardLH <V@nguard.LH> - 2020-07-19 08:19 -0500
            Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-19 16:39 +0100
  Re: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems' John Doe <always.look@message.header> - 2020-07-15 19:55 +0000

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