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Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation

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  Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation urbancamo <mark@wickensonline.co.uk> - 2011-04-19 01:26 -0700
    Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation ChrisQ <meru@devnull.com> - 2011-04-19 12:58 +0100
      Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> - 2011-04-19 14:00 +0200
      Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation "John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net> - 2011-04-19 08:42 -0400
        Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation ChrisQ <meru@devnull.com> - 2011-04-19 16:55 +0100
          Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-04-19 16:07 +0000
            Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation urbancamo <mark@wickensonline.co.uk> - 2011-04-19 12:54 -0700
              Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation ChrisQ <meru@devnull.com> - 2011-04-19 22:27 +0100
                Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation John Wallace <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-04-19 15:29 -0700
                  Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-20 08:14 +0200
                  Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation ChrisQ <meru@devnull.com> - 2011-04-22 12:11 +0100
                    Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-22 15:09 +0200
                      Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation John Wallace <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-04-23 03:32 -0700
                        Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-25 11:07 +0200
                Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Hans Bachner <Hans@Bachner.priv.at> - 2011-04-19 23:55 +0000
                Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-20 06:38 +0200
                Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation urbancamo <mark@wickensonline.co.uk> - 2011-04-20 00:54 -0700
                  Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation seasoned_geek <roland@logikalsolutions.com> - 2011-04-21 11:08 -0700
        Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Marc Van Dyck <marc.gr.vandyck@invalid.skynet.be> - 2011-04-23 22:03 +0200
          Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-24 07:24 +0200
            Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> - 2011-04-24 09:20 -0400
              Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-04-24 09:49 -0700
                Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2011-04-25 02:30 +0000
                  Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-04-25 02:40 +0000
                  Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-04-24 23:07 -0700
                    Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-04-25 08:15 -0500
                      Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-04-25 10:58 -0700
                        Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-04-25 15:25 -0500
                      Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) - 2011-04-25 20:54 +0000
                        Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2011-04-25 21:25 +0000
                          Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-04-26 04:59 +0000
                            Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2011-04-26 10:11 -0400
                            Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2011-04-28 00:15 +0000
                    Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2011-04-25 16:01 +0000
                      Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-04-25 11:03 -0700
                        Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2011-04-25 21:29 +0000
                          Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-04-25 23:40 -0700
                            Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2011-04-28 00:34 +0000
                              Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-04-27 20:42 -0700
                        Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation MetaEd <metaed@gmail.com> - 2011-04-26 08:19 -0700
                          Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-04-26 09:46 -0700
                            Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation MetaEd <metaed@gmail.com> - 2011-04-27 12:19 -0700
                          Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com (Richard) - 2011-04-28 00:24 +0000
                  Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> - 2011-04-25 08:02 -0400
                Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-25 10:53 +0200
            Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-04-25 08:14 -0500
              Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> - 2011-04-25 23:13 +0200
    Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) - 2011-04-19 20:21 +0000
      Re: Software used for diagrams in DEC documentation   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG - 2011-04-19 21:15 +0000

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#285

On 4/24/2011 1:24 AM, Paul Sture wrote:
> In article<mn.bd2b7db410794387.104627@invalid.skynet.be>,
>   Marc Van Dyck<marc.gr.vandyck@invalid.skynet.be>  wrote:
>
>> John Reagan explained :
>>
>>>
>>> I don't know what the printer manuals used, but for the language manuals
>>> the
>>> diagrams were produced by a internal tool called RAGS.  By the time, I saw
>>> them, they were in .eps format.
>>>
>>> John
>>
>> RAGS was later made an official product, and integreated in
>> DECdocument.
>> You could activate it with the command DOCUMENT/GRAPHICS.
>>
>> If I remember well, DECdocument, along with DECwrite, and a few others,
>> were transferred to a company named Touch Technologies. I have been
>> in relation with them when I wanted to buy DECinspect, another product
>> that got transferred. It stopped abruptly when I requested them to
>> show me their Integrity porting plans. None of those products were
>> ever ported and I don't know whether the company still exists. I still
>> regret DECdocument today.
>>
>> Fortunately, I don't have too much work to with MS Word, as management
>> today only wants to see bulleted lists and green smileys. For that,
>> slides out of MS Powerpoint are largely enough. And for serious docs,
>> I reverted to Runoff...
>
> Good old Runoff.  I was thinking of it with fond memories the other day
> when trying to persuade Word to do a numbered list correctly.
>

Ahhhh!!!!!  Memories.  Runoff, ROFF for short, was my first word 
processor.  Back in the dark ages, text was entered via 80 column 
punched cards.  Card punches punched upper case only unless you 
memorized the punch codes and could do tricky things with a keyboard 
that was upper case only.

I wouldn't go back for anything!!!

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#286

On 2011-04-24 06:20, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> On 4/24/2011 1:24 AM, Paul Sture wrote:
>> In article<mn.bd2b7db410794387.104627@invalid.skynet.be>,
>> Marc Van Dyck<marc.gr.vandyck@invalid.skynet.be> wrote:
>>
>>> John Reagan explained :
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what the printer manuals used, but for the language
>>>> manuals
>>>> the
>>>> diagrams were produced by a internal tool called RAGS. By the time,
>>>> I saw
>>>> them, they were in .eps format.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>
>>> RAGS was later made an official product, and integreated in
>>> DECdocument.
>>> You could activate it with the command DOCUMENT/GRAPHICS.
>>>
>>> If I remember well, DECdocument, along with DECwrite, and a few others,
>>> were transferred to a company named Touch Technologies. I have been
>>> in relation with them when I wanted to buy DECinspect, another product
>>> that got transferred. It stopped abruptly when I requested them to
>>> show me their Integrity porting plans. None of those products were
>>> ever ported and I don't know whether the company still exists. I still
>>> regret DECdocument today.
>>>
>>> Fortunately, I don't have too much work to with MS Word, as management
>>> today only wants to see bulleted lists and green smileys. For that,
>>> slides out of MS Powerpoint are largely enough. And for serious docs,
>>> I reverted to Runoff...
>>
>> Good old Runoff. I was thinking of it with fond memories the other day
>> when trying to persuade Word to do a numbered list correctly.
>>
>
> Ahhhh!!!!! Memories. Runoff, ROFF for short, was my first word
> processor. Back in the dark ages, text was entered via 80 column punched
> cards. Card punches punched upper case only unless you memorized the
> punch codes and could do tricky things with a keyboard that was upper
> case only.
>
> I wouldn't go back for anything!!!

I doubt very many would want to go back to punched cards and uppercase 
only terminals...

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

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#287

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> spake the secret code
<ip1ka0$cpo$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> thusly:

>I doubt very many would want to go back to punched cards and uppercase 
>only terminals...

Tektronix 4010 terminals are upper case only :-)

-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#288

In comp.os.vms Richard <legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com> wrote:
> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
 
> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> spake the secret code
> <ip1ka0$cpo$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> thusly:
 
>>I doubt very many would want to go back to punched cards and uppercase 
>>only terminals...
 
> Tektronix 4010 terminals are upper case only :-)

The 4012 and 4013 have upper and lower case, though.

-- glen

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#289

On 2011-04-24 19:30, Richard wrote:
> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>
> Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se>  spake the secret code
> <ip1ka0$cpo$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>  thusly:
>
>> I doubt very many would want to go back to punched cards and uppercase
>> only terminals...
>
> Tektronix 4010 terminals are upper case only :-)

I know... So are VT05.
I can't remember if the 4010 also ran in two columns, like the 4014. 
Anyway, it's not a terminal for interactive sessions. But they are ok 
for playing with graphics (if you don't mind static ones).

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

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#295

In article <ip333g$ruq$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
> 
> I know... So are VT05.

   So the ADM-3 was an advancement?  (Caps lock was a dip switch under
   a screwed-on cover.)

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#297

On 2011-04-25 06:15, Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article<ip333g$ruq$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>, Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se>  writes:
>>
>> I know... So are VT05.
>
>     So the ADM-3 was an advancement?  (Caps lock was a dip switch under
>     a screwed-on cover.)

Unless I remember wrong, the ADM-3 did not have cursor addressing, that 
came with the ADM-3a. The VT05 do have cursor addressing. So, 
advancement? Not sure.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

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#299

In article <ip4cod$bjv$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
> 
> Unless I remember wrong, the ADM-3 did not have cursor addressing, that 
> came with the ADM-3a. The VT05 do have cursor addressing. So, 
> advancement? Not sure.

   Maybe they were 3a, or a mixture of 3 and 3a.  At least some of them
   did direct cursor addressing, using sequences that started with ^G
   (bell) instead of escape.

   This caused havoc for folks who tried to use them with VMS, when
   someone sent out a repl/all/bell.  Like in SYSHUTDOWN.COM.

   We also got some ADM-4, which completly failed to be VT100
   compatable, even though that's what the purcahser though he was
   buying.  At least caps-lock moved to the keyboard.

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#300

koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:

>In article <ip333g$ruq$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>> 
>> I know... So are VT05.

>   So the ADM-3 was an advancement?  (Caps lock was a dip switch under
>   a screwed-on cover.)

Hah!  I remember the ADM-3A's in the computer center lab at college.  The
terminal was locked into all-caps mode.  The Unix people, who needed lower
case, would open the cover, often prying it open with force because they
had no screwdriver, to put the terminal in lower case mode.  Other
computers didn't understand lower case and those who used them put them
into upper case.  I think the operators were told to keep the terminals in
upper case mode because the computer center's mainframe computers were the
ones which worked in upper case only mode, the Unix systems belonged to
the computer science department.  Other groups (engineering, statistics
etc.) used the computer center's mainframe.

Those terminals quickly had those little covers bent or lost, and many
ADM-3A's failed because the little switch pack got damaged by being
repeatedly switched between upper and lower case modes without anyone
being delicate enough with those poor little switches.

A "Caps Lock" switch seems to be such a no-brainer these days...

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#302

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

moroney@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) spake the secret code
<ip4n25$f1u$1@pcls6.std.com> thusly:

>koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>
>>In article <ip333g$ruq$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>, Johnny Billquist
><bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>> 
>>> I know... So are VT05.
>
>>   So the ADM-3 was an advancement?  (Caps lock was a dip switch under
>>   a screwed-on cover.)
>
>Hah!  I remember the ADM-3A's in the computer center lab at college.  The
>terminal was locked into all-caps mode.  The Unix people, who needed lower
>case, [...]

Its possible to use unix from a upper-case only terminal.  There are
stty modes to translate uppercase characters to lowercase characters
with an escape character for when you truly need uppercase characters.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

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#304

In comp.os.vms Richard <legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com> wrote:
(snip, someone wrote)
>>Hah!  I remember the ADM-3A's in the computer center lab at college.  The
>>terminal was locked into all-caps mode.  The Unix people, who needed lower
>>case, [...]
 
> Its possible to use unix from a upper-case only terminal.  There are
> stty modes to translate uppercase characters to lowercase characters
> with an escape character for when you truly need uppercase characters.

As well as I remember, if you login with your username all upper
case, then it turns on the case conversion mode, such that you escape
them if you want them to stay upper case.

-- glen

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#308

In article <ip5jep$ua9$1@dont-email.me>,
glen herrmannsfeldt  <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>In comp.os.vms Richard <legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com> wrote:
>(snip, someone wrote)
>>>Hah!  I remember the ADM-3A's in the computer center lab at college.  The
>>>terminal was locked into all-caps mode.  The Unix people, who needed lower
>>>case, [...]
> 
>> Its possible to use unix from a upper-case only terminal.  There are
>> stty modes to translate uppercase characters to lowercase characters
>> with an escape character for when you truly need uppercase characters.
>
>As well as I remember, if you login with your username all upper
>case, then it turns on the case conversion mode, such that you escape
>them if you want them to stay upper case.

This was the case for Ultrix and SunOS.

It is no longer the case any more... Solaris and the last few NetBSD
revisions no longer support uppercase-only mode.
--scott
-- 
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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#315

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> spake the secret code
<ip5jep$ua9$1@dont-email.me> thusly:

>In comp.os.vms Richard <legalize+jeeves@mail.xmission.com> wrote:
>(snip, someone wrote)
>>>Hah!  I remember the ADM-3A's in the computer center lab at college.  The
>>>terminal was locked into all-caps mode.  The Unix people, who needed lower
>>>case, [...]
> 
>> Its possible to use unix from a upper-case only terminal.  There are
>> stty modes to translate uppercase characters to lowercase characters
>> with an escape character for when you truly need uppercase characters.
>
>As well as I remember, if you login with your username all upper
>case, then it turns on the case conversion mode, such that you escape
>them if you want them to stay upper case.

That's what I remember too.  I also remembering logging in that way
before I realized that the last person on the terminal left the CAPS
LOCK key engaged :-).  Then you learn the stty modes to disable the
case conversion after you turn off CAPS LOCK.

I found documentation on the modes for stty but I couldn't find
anything in the current man pages about login's behavior, though.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#296

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> spake the secret code
<ip333g$ruq$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> thusly:

>On 2011-04-24 19:30, Richard wrote:
>> Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se>  spake the secret code
>> <ip1ka0$cpo$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>  thusly:
>>
>>> I doubt very many would want to go back to punched cards and uppercase
>>> only terminals...
>>
>> Tektronix 4010 terminals are upper case only :-)
>
>I know... So are VT05.

Oddly enough, I encounter many more Tektronix 401x terminals than I do
VT05s!

>I can't remember if the 4010 also ran in two columns, like the 4014. 

It does.

>Anyway, it's not a terminal for interactive sessions. But they are ok 
>for playing with graphics (if you don't mind static ones).

I did lots of interactive sessions on it.  Also, its a little known
fact that you *can* have dynamic graphics on a 401x terminal, just not
very many vectors can be refreshed fast enough for anything more than
a small moving graphic.  Its done with the same mechanism that is used
to do the graphic crosshair cursor.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#298

On 2011-04-25 09:01, Richard wrote:
> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>
> Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se>  spake the secret code
> <ip333g$ruq$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>  thusly:
>
>> On 2011-04-24 19:30, Richard wrote:
>>> Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se>   spake the secret code
>>> <ip1ka0$cpo$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>   thusly:
>>>
>>>> I doubt very many would want to go back to punched cards and uppercase
>>>> only terminals...
>>>
>>> Tektronix 4010 terminals are upper case only :-)
>>
>> I know... So are VT05.
>
> Oddly enough, I encounter many more Tektronix 401x terminals than I do
> VT05s!

Well. I haven't touched a VT05 in about 20 years now. I don't know if I 
could locate one if I wanted to. I'd have to check with old contacts for 
that... I've not seen any in the wild for a long time.

On the other hand, I can say the same for the 401x terminals...

>> I can't remember if the 4010 also ran in two columns, like the 4014.
>
> It does.

Figured. Makes it weird when you go over the "middle". :-)

>> Anyway, it's not a terminal for interactive sessions. But they are ok
>> for playing with graphics (if you don't mind static ones).
>
> I did lots of interactive sessions on it.  Also, its a little known
> fact that you *can* have dynamic graphics on a 401x terminal, just not
> very many vectors can be refreshed fast enough for anything more than
> a small moving graphic.  Its done with the same mechanism that is used
> to do the graphic crosshair cursor.

I know that you can have a vector or two that is dynamic (if you asked 
me, I thought it was just one, but it's been a few years since I played 
with this).
But I guess you could always switch between several vectors by software. 
But that will really limited, since you run at rather slow serial 
speeds, and the vector drawing itself is rather slow, requiring lots of 
fillers if you draw long ones.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#303

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> spake the secret code
<ip4d1c$bpm$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> thusly:

>On 2011-04-25 09:01, Richard wrote:
>> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>>
>> Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se>  spake the secret code
>> <ip333g$ruq$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>  thusly:
>>
>>> On 2011-04-24 19:30, Richard wrote:
>>>> Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se>   spake the secret code
>>>> <ip1ka0$cpo$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>   thusly:
>>>>
>>>>> I doubt very many would want to go back to punched cards and uppercase
>>>>> only terminals...
>>>>
>>>> Tektronix 4010 terminals are upper case only :-)
>>>
>>> I know... So are VT05.
>>
>> Oddly enough, I encounter many more Tektronix 401x terminals than I do
>> VT05s!
>
>Well. I haven't touched a VT05 in about 20 years now. I don't know if I 
>could locate one if I wanted to. I'd have to check with old contacts for 
>that... I've not seen any in the wild for a long time.

I'd love to get my hands on one.  I got an LA30 and it would be great
to have the companion CRT model.

>On the other hand, I can say the same for the 401x terminals...

I think I've just been lucky with these; most have been made available
to me by legwork.  They show up on ebay occasionally, but they end up
being pricier there.

>>> I can't remember if the 4010 also ran in two columns, like the 4014.
>>
>> It does.
>
>Figured. Makes it weird when you go over the "middle". :-)

Yep :-)

>>> Anyway, it's not a terminal for interactive sessions. But they are ok
>>> for playing with graphics (if you don't mind static ones).
>>
>> I did lots of interactive sessions on it.  Also, its a little known
>> fact that you *can* have dynamic graphics on a 401x terminal, just not
>> very many vectors can be refreshed fast enough for anything more than
>> a small moving graphic.  Its done with the same mechanism that is used
>> to do the graphic crosshair cursor.
>
>I know that you can have a vector or two that is dynamic (if you asked 
>me, I thought it was just one, but it's been a few years since I played 
>with this).

The limit to the number of vectors you can have is based on how
quickly you can transmit to the terminal.  Basically you have to do
active refresh with dynamic vectors and at 9600 baud, that's not a lot
of vectors.

>But I guess you could always switch between several vectors by software. 
>But that will really limited, since you run at rather slow serial 
>speeds, and the vector drawing itself is rather slow, requiring lots of 
>fillers if you draw long ones.

I never needed to supply any fill characters when drawing vectors, but
it could be because we typically had 300 baud connections.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

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#305

On 2011-04-25 14:29, Richard wrote:
> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>
> Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se>  spake the secret code
> <ip4d1c$bpm$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>  thusly:
>
>> On 2011-04-25 09:01, Richard wrote:
>>> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>>>
>>> Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se>   spake the secret code
>>> <ip333g$ruq$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>   thusly:
>>>
>>>> On 2011-04-24 19:30, Richard wrote:
>>>>> Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se>    spake the secret code
>>>>> <ip1ka0$cpo$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>    thusly:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I doubt very many would want to go back to punched cards and uppercase
>>>>>> only terminals...
>>>>>
>>>>> Tektronix 4010 terminals are upper case only :-)
>>>>
>>>> I know... So are VT05.
>>>
>>> Oddly enough, I encounter many more Tektronix 401x terminals than I do
>>> VT05s!
>>
>> Well. I haven't touched a VT05 in about 20 years now. I don't know if I
>> could locate one if I wanted to. I'd have to check with old contacts for
>> that... I've not seen any in the wild for a long time.
>
> I'd love to get my hands on one.  I got an LA30 and it would be great
> to have the companion CRT model.

If I could locate any, it would be in Sweden. Probably not too practical 
from where ever you might live anyway... :-)

>>>> Anyway, it's not a terminal for interactive sessions. But they are ok
>>>> for playing with graphics (if you don't mind static ones).
>>>
>>> I did lots of interactive sessions on it.  Also, its a little known
>>> fact that you *can* have dynamic graphics on a 401x terminal, just not
>>> very many vectors can be refreshed fast enough for anything more than
>>> a small moving graphic.  Its done with the same mechanism that is used
>>> to do the graphic crosshair cursor.
>>
>> I know that you can have a vector or two that is dynamic (if you asked
>> me, I thought it was just one, but it's been a few years since I played
>> with this).
>
> The limit to the number of vectors you can have is based on how
> quickly you can transmit to the terminal.  Basically you have to do
> active refresh with dynamic vectors and at 9600 baud, that's not a lot
> of vectors.

You do not need to do active refresh on the one vector, or am I 
remembering that wrong?
But in case you want more, then you need to redraw each one in turn all 
the time.

>> But I guess you could always switch between several vectors by software.
>> But that will really limited, since you run at rather slow serial
>> speeds, and the vector drawing itself is rather slow, requiring lots of
>> fillers if you draw long ones.
>
> I never needed to supply any fill characters when drawing vectors, but
> it could be because we typically had 300 baud connections.

Heh. That could be the reason. At 4800 bps, you need several fillers if 
you go from one end of the screen to the other.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

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#317

[Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]

Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> spake the secret code
<ip5pct$ovk$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> thusly:

>On 2011-04-25 14:29, Richard wrote:
>> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>>
>> I'd love to get my hands on one.  I got an LA30 and it would be great
>> to have the companion CRT model.
>
>If I could locate any, it would be in Sweden. Probably not too practical 
>from where ever you might live anyway... :-)

I bought a PLATO terminal and local compute system from the UK.  It
was pretty pricey, but it was unique enough to warrant the expense.
However, I think for DEC video terminals I should only be looking
overseas as an absolute last resort; they made enough of these (VT05)
for the US market that I should have a better chance of finding one in
the states.

>> The limit to the number of vectors you can have is based on how
>> quickly you can transmit to the terminal.  Basically you have to do
>> active refresh with dynamic vectors and at 9600 baud, that's not a lot
>> of vectors.
>
>You do not need to do active refresh on the one vector, or am I 
>remembering that wrong?

According to the User's Manual, pg. 1-9,
<http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/401x/070-1647-00_4014_UsersMan_Nov79.pdf>

	"Write-Thru.  A display writing operation that prevents
	information from storing as it is being written, yet does not
	change the viewing status of previously stored information.  Once
	Write-Thru is enabled, information being written must be
	"refreshed" by the computer (or peripheral) to be useful.
	Intensity of written data depends on the refresh rate and the
	Write-Thru adjustment on the right side of the keyboard.
	Write-Thru can be used in either Alpha or Graph modes.  When in
	Write-Thru Alpha Mode, the Terminal automatically increases its
	maximum writing speed from the normal 1000 characters per second
	to 4000 characters per second."

>> I never needed to supply any fill characters when drawing vectors, but
>> it could be because we typically had 300 baud connections.
>
>Heh. That could be the reason. At 4800 bps, you need several fillers if 
>you go from one end of the screen to the other.

Interesting... I'll need to remember that as I'm not going to be
hooking these up over 300 baud lines :-).
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

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#318

On 2011-04-27 17:34, Richard wrote:
> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>
> Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se>  spake the secret code
> <ip5pct$ovk$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>  thusly:
>
>> On 2011-04-25 14:29, Richard wrote:
>>> [Please do not mail me a copy of your followup]
>>>
>>> The limit to the number of vectors you can have is based on how
>>> quickly you can transmit to the terminal.  Basically you have to do
>>> active refresh with dynamic vectors and at 9600 baud, that's not a lot
>>> of vectors.
>>
>> You do not need to do active refresh on the one vector, or am I
>> remembering that wrong?
>
> According to the User's Manual, pg. 1-9,
> <http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/401x/070-1647-00_4014_UsersMan_Nov79.pdf>
>
> 	"Write-Thru.  A display writing operation that prevents
> 	information from storing as it is being written, yet does not
> 	change the viewing status of previously stored information.  Once
> 	Write-Thru is enabled, information being written must be
> 	"refreshed" by the computer (or peripheral) to be useful.
> 	Intensity of written data depends on the refresh rate and the
> 	Write-Thru adjustment on the right side of the keyboard.
> 	Write-Thru can be used in either Alpha or Graph modes.  When in
> 	Write-Thru Alpha Mode, the Terminal automatically increases its
> 	maximum writing speed from the normal 1000 characters per second
> 	to 4000 characters per second."

Ah! Thanks for the refresher. Yes, you're right. It just draws a line 
that immediately disappears again. I'm starting to remember details. :-)

>>> I never needed to supply any fill characters when drawing vectors, but
>>> it could be because we typically had 300 baud connections.
>>
>> Heh. That could be the reason. At 4800 bps, you need several fillers if
>> you go from one end of the screen to the other.
>
> Interesting... I'll need to remember that as I'm not going to be
> hooking these up over 300 baud lines :-).

You'll notice when you run, if nothing else. Your vectors will be 
"truncated", when it starts processing the next command before the 
previous one had time to complete.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

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#309

On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 13:03, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se>
wrote:
> Well. I haven't touched a VT05 in about 20 years now. I don't know
> if I could locate one if I wanted to. I'd have to check with old
> contacts for that... I've not seen any in the wild for a long
> time.

I have a VT05 that worked last I knew, and about three more that
have some parts scavenged out of them. They are very heavy. They
also truly deserve their nickname "glass ttys". Probably have at
least one manual too.

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