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Groups > comp.sys.dec > #218 > unrolled thread
| Started by | "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2011-04-04 09:12 -0400 |
| Last post | 2011-05-25 14:05 -0400 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 143 — 22 participants |
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Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-04-04 09:12 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billy@MIX.COM - 2011-04-30 22:27 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-01 10:01 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-01 10:27 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-01 20:53 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-01 21:16 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-01 20:54 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-01 21:07 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-02 09:37 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-02 08:39 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-02 05:15 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems jjh <jjhudak@gmail.com> - 2011-05-02 18:20 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-03 08:18 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-03 12:51 -0400
VAXTREK koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-03 12:50 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Henry Crun <mike@rechtman.com> - 2011-05-03 21:39 +0300
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-03 15:56 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems onedbguru <onedbguru@yahoo.com> - 2011-05-03 15:52 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billig999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-04 00:07 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> - 2011-05-04 01:16 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-04 13:01 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> - 2011-05-04 10:19 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2011-05-04 10:58 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-04 16:33 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> - 2011-05-04 21:51 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems G Cornelius <cornelius@eisner.decus.org> - 2011-05-06 13:08 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> - 2011-05-06 14:47 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@update.uu.se> - 2011-05-06 16:13 -0600
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2011-05-07 21:00 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-07 19:51 -0600
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> - 2011-05-08 07:19 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2011-05-09 17:32 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> - 2011-05-09 09:40 -0600
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-09 09:43 -0600
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems vandys@vsta.org - 2011-05-09 21:47 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-09 16:05 -0600
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems vandys@vsta.org - 2011-05-09 23:05 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-09 17:20 -0600
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems vandys@vsta.org - 2011-05-10 00:12 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-09 19:36 -0600
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-10 02:01 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-10 08:31 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems John Wallace <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-05-10 09:56 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-10 12:50 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems G Cornelius <cornelius@eisner.decus.org> - 2011-05-11 11:04 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-04 10:02 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-04 12:20 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-04 18:10 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems John Wallace <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-05-04 12:21 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems MetaEd <metaed@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 15:06 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-04 20:17 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-10 08:20 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-10 08:29 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-10 09:29 -0600
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems G Cornelius <cornelius@eisner.decus.org> - 2011-05-10 12:16 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-10 12:45 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-10 15:34 -0600
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-10 12:58 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-10 15:36 -0600
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-03 12:38 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems paramucho@hotmail.com (paramucho) - 2011-05-03 11:28 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-03 12:09 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billy@MIX.COM - 2011-05-23 03:41 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-22 21:51 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems jjh <jjhudak@gmail.com> - 2011-05-23 07:47 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-23 15:04 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-23 15:52 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-24 00:16 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-23 17:40 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-24 12:58 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-24 14:02 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-24 07:36 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-24 16:42 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-24 11:17 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-24 20:07 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2011-05-24 21:07 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-25 03:34 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-25 15:46 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-25 16:00 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201105.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2011-05-26 17:50 +0200
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-26 09:53 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201105.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2011-05-26 22:20 +0200
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-28 18:01 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2011-05-25 20:58 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-26 01:23 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-26 08:01 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-27 00:54 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2011-05-26 16:15 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-26 23:56 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2011-05-27 14:37 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-27 00:02 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-26 20:17 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2011-05-27 14:51 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-27 12:48 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2011-05-27 14:35 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-25 21:14 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-26 01:32 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-26 16:39 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201105.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2011-05-26 17:50 +0200
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2011-05-24 21:01 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-26 07:53 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-26 09:59 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201105.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2011-05-26 10:03 +0200
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems paramucho@hotmail.com (paramucho) - 2011-05-26 14:21 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billy@MIX.COM - 2011-05-26 18:50 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems paramucho@hotmail.com (paramucho) - 2011-05-27 11:58 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billy@MIX.COM - 2011-05-27 17:23 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-26 10:04 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201105.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2011-05-27 03:30 +0200
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2011-05-26 22:17 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-26 20:26 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems John Wallace <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-05-30 14:09 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-30 18:15 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems jjh <jjhudak@gmail.com> - 2011-05-31 11:02 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) - 2011-05-31 15:54 -0500
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2011-05-31 21:37 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-24 22:59 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-25 03:51 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-25 08:36 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Tom Lake" <tlake@twcny.rr.com> - 2011-05-25 13:25 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-25 14:01 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-25 11:44 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2011-05-25 21:20 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> - 2011-05-26 10:53 -0600
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2011-05-26 16:27 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-26 20:27 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-26 16:38 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-26 21:44 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems paramucho@hotmail.com (paramucho) - 2011-05-24 12:02 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-23 10:48 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-23 15:46 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-24 00:19 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-23 17:43 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-25 14:41 -0400
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billy@MIX.COM - 2011-05-24 02:54 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-24 13:03 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-24 07:39 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billy@MIX.COM - 2011-05-24 15:10 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> - 2011-05-24 08:48 -0700
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-24 16:54 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billy@MIX.COM - 2011-05-24 14:42 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) - 2011-05-24 16:56 +0000
Re: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> - 2011-05-25 14:05 -0400
Page 7 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 Next page →
| From | "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-25 14:01 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4ddd43b7$0$304$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #490 |
>Tom Lake wrote: > The same concept can be used in RT-11 under RT11ZM. > However, under the PDP-11 architecture, the maximum > data space at any one time will always be 64 KB. However, > under RT-11, the MMU can be used directly to access > all 4 MB of memory (with only a small overhead of > changing the MMU each time a different page of memory > is to be accessed). Probably only the RT-11 operating > system does this 99% of the time since it should be done > only in KERNAL mode and most of the time with interrupts > disabled. > > Do you happen to know if BASIC can take advantage of the paged memory > directly (the SIZE command shows the extra) In answer to your actual question, probably not. Since BASIC supports normal arrays, I assume you are asking about an array which uses much larger sizes of memory - probably greater than 64 KB which is impossible under anything that a PDP-11 can normally support in any case. FORTRAN uses the virtual statement to support very large arrays greater than 64 KB, especially REAL * 8 and COMPLEX * 16. There is DECUS code to change from using extended memory to using the disk drive. Since I am completely familiar only with Multi-User Basic, my suggestion would be to program interface subroutines that parallel the VIRTUAL statement in FORTRAN and use that method. Since BASIC (if I remember correctly) already includes VIRTUAL arrays on disk, the code could be modified to be in extended memory the same way that VIRTUAL in FORTRAN handles memory. If you are running under Ersatz-11, my suggestion would be to use EMEM.DLL and manage the PC memory directly or using MFPD / MTPD via previous USER space when you are running as a virtual job (having used VBGEXE to initiate a virtual background job under RT11XM). Jerome Fine
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| From | Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-25 11:44 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <irjime$2a1$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> |
| In reply to | #488 |
I'll trim this to just the parts that I think are relevant... On 2011-05-25 05.36, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> >On 2011-05-24 19.59, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>> Can Johnny fill out the RSX-11 values and someone else the >>> RSTS/E values? Also, add operating system features which >>> are felt to be important. >> >> Not really sure what you want me to fill in, but I'll try to make >> comments on your table. > > Thank you. I am already aware of some of the values. But others are > beyond my knowledge. I will attempt to update the table from your > comments. > >>> Maximum RT-11 TSX-Plus RSX-11 RSTS/E >>> ---------- ------- ---------- -------- --------- >>> >>> Instructions: 64 KB 64 KB >> >> What is this? Addressable virtual address space? > > Yes - I assume that RSX-11S (without an MMU) is less than > 64 KB, but when the MMU is available and execution is in > USER space, 64 KB are available. RT-11 is the same. Under > RT11FB (and RT11SJ), only about 32 KB are available. Under > RT11XM and using VBGEXE to initiate a virtual job, 64 KB > are available. Under the RT-11 RTS under RSTS/E, I have > found that a bit less than 56 KB are available. Does anyone > who knows RSTS/E well know if a full 64 KB are available > if a RTS is not in use? So, just to make this clear: This is pretty much not OS-related. It's a hardware questions, and relates to the PDP-11 architecture. I don't see the point of having that in a table for various PDP-11 OSes. The numbers will be the same for all of them, since this is a PDP-11 question. To clarify a little about RTST/E for you. You can never not have an RTS in use. There is always an RTS. However, one RTS does not occupy any memory from the user space, and that is the RSX RTS, which is "invisible", since it is implemented as a part of the kernel. And even with the RT-11 RTS, you 64K of memory. However, 8K of that is reserved for the RTS use. But the address space is still there, and is still used. >>> Data (No I/D) INCL INCL >>> Data (I/D) 64 KB 64KB >> >> I guess we're talking about directly addressable virtual address space. >> This is not OS dependent. It is a function of the architecture, and >> will be the same on all OSes running on a PDP-11, with the following >> caveats: >> If MMU is not enabled, then you have different rules. > > Obviously. I presume that RSX-11S and RT-11 with RT11SJ are > examples. I know that TSX-Plus allows only virtual jobs which > can be allowed the full 64 KB. I presume that RSTS/E also > allows only virtual jobs. Can anyone confirm? Yes. I thought that was obvious. And I started by pointing this out. Without the MMU, the rules are different. Both RSX and RSTS/E always runs with the MMU on. That sets the stage. So, you have virtual addressing, and (obviously) this means that all 16 bits of address space can be played with. >> If the OS don't support split I/D-space, then you cannot use it, even >> if the hardware supports it. > > Also true. Under RT-11, this became available in V05.06 > using the RT11ZM monitor. It is probably used very little > under RT-11. I know of no applications which have been > written to take advantage of I/D space for RT-11. So your list could (should) probable be changed into just a question of wether it supports split I/D space. >> I'm not sure if it is relevant to talk about memory spaces in other >> ways. Like, in RSX, you can create big memory areas which you can map >> into and out of your virtual address space. It's sortof like mmap() in >> Unix, except different. But it gives an understanding about what it is >> to talk about mmap here. > > The same concept can be used in RT-11 under RT11ZM. > However, under the PDP-11 architecture, the maximum > data space at any one time will always be 64 KB. However, > under RT-11, the MMU can be used directly to access > all 4 MB of memory (with only a small overhead of > changing the MMU each time a different page of memory > is to be accessed). Probably only the RT-11 operating > system does this 99% of the time since it should be done > only in KERNAL mode and most of the time with interrupts > disabled. You didn't listen. I said that RSX can allow programs to use larger sections of ram, and it's all done through system calls. You do not play with the MMU. But you do have larger memory spaces. However, you have something like "windows" that you move around in those larger memory spaces, to see different parts of the memory (yes, the underlying mechanism used for this is the MMU mappings). This is totally protected by the OS, fully and seamlessly managed by tge OS, and it is used a lot. All from user space (and interrupts are not disabled). You can choose to build your overlaid programs as memory resident, in which case the overlay scheme will use this feature of the OS to make your program much faster. After all, overlays already resident in memory means you just need to change the mapping instead of reading another overlay in from disk. But it's also used to pass information between programs (one program can send mapping information to another program, so that they can share memory), and it can be used to store larger data sets than fits into 64K of memory. >>> Scheduling: Job# Complex >> >> For RSX, the scheduling is basically a strict priority scheduler. The >> task with the highest priority that wants to run gets the CPU. > > Same with TSX-Plus. However, the priorities are raised > and lowered (within limits) depending on what the job is doing. So it's not the same. RSX does not modify any priorities. If it did, I would have mentioned it. > Can anyone please comment on RSTS/E scheduling? As far as I remember, RSTS/E uses a kind of round-robin scheduling. But RSTS/E have something called run burst level as well, which decides how long a process is on the CPU once it is running. A higher run burst means it runs longer before a context switch. I can't remember there being any scheduling priorities, but it might just be that I don't remember. >>> Device:(Hard Disk) 65536 65536 >> >> Hard disks themself don't have a limit. It's just a question of the >> controller and disk. For SCSI disks and controllers, the current disks >> are reaching into the terabyte range. > > Amazing!!!!!!!! I remember when I first purchased a > MAXTOR XT8760E at $ 1 / MB at an EOL sale > probably around 1995. What is amazing about this? We are talking about something that have basically nothing to do with PDP-11s. Just go to any disk manufacturer today, and you'll see that these are the current disk sizes. >>> File:(FS Hard Disk) 65528 65528 >> >> The RSX file system by default limits disks to 8 GB. In disk blocks >> we're talking about 2^24 blocks. > > The same with RT-11 at present for the normal MSCP > access. Partition numbers up to 255 are supported. > > HOWEVER, my actual question was the size of each > individual file. Is the maximum block number 65535? Oh. Ok. Yes, individual files in RSX also normally can be regarded as having a max of 2^24 blocks. However, I don't know if there is anything in there that prevents it from being 2^32. The API itself from programs to the device driver passes 32-bit disk block numbers, but I haven't checked properly if there might be some field, some where, that are limited to 24 bits. > Namely, is the standard block number a 16 bit word > (as in RT-11) or does RSX-11 support a 32 bit block > number for a file? As said before. The places I can remember off my head actually use 32 bit block numbers, but I might be forgetting some place where it might be just 24 bits. (For a long time, 24 bit block numbers have been a norm, so it might be that some field somewhere, in some function, actually forces this limit because 24 bit block numbers are what internal code was using for such a long time. Support for 32 bit block numbers in the internal file system code handling was only tweaked with in the last release of RSX.) I try to emphasis on the two different sides here. The user-interfacing parts, which I think are 32 bit clean, and have been so from the stone age. And then the internal file system code, which for the longest time only supported 24 bit block numbers. Actually, DEC originally created three schemes for how retrieval pointers in RSX could look like. The retrieval pointers are what the internal file system code deals with. The three schemes were called: 2/2 3/1 4/2 This is basically the size of the disk block number, and the disk block counts. So a retrieval pointer for 2/2 would be capable of addressing a start block in the 2^16 range, and up to 2^16 consecutive blocks from there. In reality, only 3/1 was implemented for a long time. 4/2 support was implemented, and I think functional, first in RSX-11M+ V4.6, but I have not actually tested it. What kind of retrieval pointers that are in use are indicated in the home block of the disk, so you can have different schemes for different disks concurrently. A scheme like 2/2 is only useful for small disks. But since 3/1 takes the same amount of space, and can address larger disks, you might as well use that for smaller disks as well, so 2/2 would appear to have been pretty pointless in the end. But from the program point of view, all this is hidden. You have no idea what type of retrieval pointers are used. You just specify a 32-bit block number when you want to read from disk. >>> Max Files: 255 255 >> >> Max number of files in an RSX system is 65500 files. But then again, >> you can create virtual disks inside a disk, and each of those can have >> 65500 files as well, which means that you can go to very many files on >> a physical disk, by just nesting virtual disks inside it. > > I was actually asking about the maximum number of > OPEN files at any one time. Ah. That would be 255 under RSX. >>> Synchronous I/O Yes Yes >> >> What does this mean? Can RSX do synchronous I/O? Yes, of course. It >> can also do asynchronous I/O. > > Just asking. I always assumed that most operating systems > allowed both types of I/O. I understand that Windows > supports only synchronous I/O. What about RSTS/E? No, windows supports both synchronous and asynchronous I/O as well. As do Unix. It's just more difficult to do under some OSes, and there might be limitations and restrictions. >>> File Sharing No Yes >> >> What do you put into the concept of file sharing? RSX can allow >> concurrent read-only access to files. It can allow one writer with >> many readers, and it can also allow multiple writers to a file. It >> also have disk block locking to control concurrent access to a file, >> so that you can have a controlled consistent view of the contents of a >> file. >> Programs also have control over what access they want to allow other >> programs to have to a file. > > I understand that RSTS/E also supports file sharing? Can > anyone please confirm? Yes, it do. Pretty similar to RSX. Johnny
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| From | Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-25 21:20 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mddhb8i2r6i.fsf@panix5.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #488 |
"Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> writes:
> ... I assume that RSX-11S (without an MMU) is less than
> 64 KB, but when the MMU is available and execution is in
> USER space, 64 KB are available.
Jerome,
RSX-11S is a run-time only version of RSX-11M without any user programming
features. It is intended to provide a substrate for a single application
to run on top of.
Program development, even that deployed on -11S, is done under RSX-11M(+).
Neither RSX-11S nor RSX-11M require an MMU to run, although -11M can make
use of an MMU if present and SYSGEN'd to do so.
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
the russet leaves of an autumn oak/inspire once again the failed poet/
to take up his pen/and essay to place his meagre words upon the page...
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| From | Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 10:53 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <alpine.LFD.2.00.1105261051080.16167@libra.gmcl.internal> |
| In reply to | #498 |
On Wed, 25 May 2011 at 21:20 -0400, Rich Alderson wrote:
> Neither RSX-11S nor RSX-11M require an MMU to run, although -11M can
> make use of an MMU if present and SYSGEN'd to do so.
According to the SPD for RSX-11S V2.1 (1978! the latest I found on
BitSavers), RSX-11S can use the MMU as well.
--
Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m
G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice)
Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX)
http://gmcl.com/
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| From | Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 16:27 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mddsjs1ky23.fsf@panix5.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #507 |
Rob Brown <mylastname@gmcl.com> writes:
> On Wed, 25 May 2011 at 21:20 -0400, Rich Alderson wrote:
>> Neither RSX-11S nor RSX-11M require an MMU to run, although -11M can
>> make use of an MMU if present and SYSGEN'd to do so.
> According to the SPD for RSX-11S V2.1 (1978! the latest I found on
> BitSavers), RSX-11S can use the MMU as well.
OK, I'm willing to believe that. What I know about -11S is from the joint
description with -11M in an old handbook. Since I wasn't interested in
-11S, I never researched it further than that. -11M is the parent of -20F,
used in the front end processor (an 11/40, unmapped) of the KL-10 based
DEC-20/DEC-10. Development work for RSX-20F is done in -11M.
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
the russet leaves of an autumn oak/inspire once again the failed poet/
to take up his pen/and essay to place his meagre words upon the page...
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| From | Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 20:27 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <irn5nd$8dp$2@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> |
| In reply to | #514 |
On 2011-05-26 13.27, Rich Alderson wrote: > Rob Brown<mylastname@gmcl.com> writes: > >> On Wed, 25 May 2011 at 21:20 -0400, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> Neither RSX-11S nor RSX-11M require an MMU to run, although -11M can >>> make use of an MMU if present and SYSGEN'd to do so. > >> According to the SPD for RSX-11S V2.1 (1978! the latest I found on >> BitSavers), RSX-11S can use the MMU as well. > > OK, I'm willing to believe that. What I know about -11S is from the joint > description with -11M in an old handbook. Since I wasn't interested in > -11S, I never researched it further than that. -11M is the parent of -20F, > used in the front end processor (an 11/40, unmapped) of the KL-10 based > DEC-20/DEC-10. Development work for RSX-20F is done in -11M. Yeah, probably both -11S and -11M can very well use an MMU if one exist, and you want to. But both can also work just fine (for some definition of fine) without an MMU. Johnny
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| From | "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 16:38 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4ddeba33$0$302$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #498 |
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>Rich Alderson wrote: >>"Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> writes: > >>... I assume that RSX-11S (without an MMU) is less than >>64 KB, but when the MMU is available and execution is in >>USER space, 64 KB are available. >> >RSX-11S is a run-time only version of RSX-11M without any user programming >features. It is intended to provide a substrate for a single application >to run on top of. > > What I was attempting to understand was how much memory is available for a user application program when it executes in the same memory space (no MMU) as the operating system, such as with RT11SJ. With an MMU available for the operating system to execute in KERNEL mode and the user application to execute in USER mode, on a PDP-11 with at least 1/4 MB of physical memory, the user application has a possible 64 KB of USER mode memory to execute in. The same goes for RT11XM. The program VBGEXE.SAV requests 64 KB of extended memory and copies the user application into that memory in USER mode and then initiates the user application. With RSTS/E, RT-11 programs require the support of the RT-11 RTS and there is less than 56 KB of memory available to the RT-11 user application. What I am still confused about is if the program is written for RSTS/E, does RSTS/E make the complete 64 KB available or is there still an essential RSTS/E RTS which reduces the memory available to the user application to less than 64 KB - and if so what is still available. Jerome Fine
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| From | Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-26 21:44 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <irna6u$9sp$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> |
| In reply to | #515 |
On 2011-05-26 13.38, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Rich Alderson wrote: >> >"Jerome H. Fine"<everyone@nospam.com> writes: >>> ... I assume that RSX-11S (without an MMU) is less than >>> 64 KB, but when the MMU is available and execution is in >>> USER space, 64 KB are available. >> RSX-11S is a run-time only version of RSX-11M without any user programming >> features. It is intended to provide a substrate for a single application >> to run on top of. >> > What I was attempting to understand was how much > memory is available for a user application program > when it executes in the same memory space (no MMU) > as the operating system, such as with RT11SJ. Since RSTS/E can't, the question is not valid for RSTS/E. RSX-11M+ can't either. For 11M, the usable space for an application program when not having an MMU is about 20KB, if I remember right. Johnny
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| From | paramucho@hotmail.com (paramucho) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 12:02 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <4ddb94f7.4125430@news.optusnet.com.au> |
| In reply to | #463 |
On Mon, 23 May 2011 15:52:52 -0700, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote: >> Probably depends on just what you build. A direct clone of any of them >> that only ran on PDP-11 hardware would be of little if any value. Now, >> a clone that ran on other hardware and allowed modernization of the OS, >> that would be another question. Possibly no interest there either but >> there is always potential. But, again, it really depends on the if the >> OSes do get released and what license they get saddled with. VMS is that, in a way (as was NT for that matter). S&H remimplemented their DEC-style TSX-plus system for Intel CPUs (TSX32) and have found a niche market in the robust systems area. One could say that the two prodominant traditions today are the DEC-based WINDOWS stream and the Unix-based Linux/Chrome/Mac stream. >In a way, a reimplementation of the PDP-11 OSes might be interesting. I've been slowly modernising my PDP-11 "reimplementation(s)" of RT-11. These are based on systems my company developed commercially in Europe in the 1980s. The current single-user kit, RUST/SJ, is basically rewritten RT-11, minus MACRO, LINK and LIBR and plus many other things. The binary kit is freely available at: http://rust.wikispaces.com/ The multi-user implementation, RUST/XM, is more-or-less ready for distribution, I just have to find the time. The multi-user implementation has some ability to run simple RSX apps. Some support for Unix apps has been developed but never packaged. I'll eventually upload all the sources. The main issue there is getting rid of all the gunk which clutters the directories. Like some other software houses in the period we developed in-house languages (for the wont of anything better). I've been slowly rewriting the stuff in the most obscure of the languages along with writing replacements for the RT-11 drivers and system apps that we didn't supply on the earlier kits. I'm sure there are still some PDP-11s doing meaningful work out there, but those still using PDP-11s would certainly have had to become self-reliant in the past two decades. I don't see any capacity for PDP-11s to capture new customers. I think of PDP-11 systems more as valuable vintage systems that deserve being kept polished and in working order. I think that involves a bit more than just having a period kit available with some cryptic instructions about how to boot the system. Ian
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| From | "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-23 10:48 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4dda73b6$0$307$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #458 |
>Johnny Billquist wrote: > >On 2011-05-22 20.41, billy@MIX.COM wrote: > >> In vmsnet.pdp-11 paramucho<paramucho@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>> With MENTEC gone the original version of RT-11 has been orphaned. >> > Rumors have it that someone have bought the PDP-11 software from what > was Mentec... The rumours are probably correct. If true, the information must still be VERY private. >> Various considerations have been brought up in this thread, but >> not having the sources, to say nothing of permission to work on >> V5.7 (which has other improvements and bug fixes, and from which >> it would be best to continue), is a real show-stopper in itself. > > Agree. It seems rather silly to fix code in an old version. It better > to base the work on the latest release, which have already fixed a > number of issues, and gives the opportunity to improve instead of > repeating things Other than Y2K issues, I agree that V05.07 does have a few items fixed, mostly minor (which experienced RT-11 users would be able to fix all by themselves), but perhaps not all. I believe that the ethernet device drivers were fixed by Megan Gentry, but I don't use them so I can't comment. While most RT-11 users will not encounter the bugs still present, there are at least two which cause RT-11 to crash. There are also many minor bugs which need to be fixed. Enhancements are also available, in particular, features which would greatly help in the development of enhancements. One enhancement would be an SN(X).SYS (Symbolic Name Device List Pseudo Device Driver) which would be similar to the PATH in DOS or the Symbolic Name List in VMS. Under RT-11, SN(X).SYS would be limited to: (a) Device names and (b) Only the .LookUp EMT request for permanent files. However, a request to .LookUp file "SN2:FOOBAR.TYP" would be handled directly by the CSR after the user had defined a set of device names (up to 16) to be searched. As far as I know, no one else is interested in maintaining or enhancing RT-11. If I am wrong, please correct me. >> And then, the last support email I received for the RT-11 Kermit >> was so long ago (many years) it's now archived, so I can't easily >> check the date. The last for RSX was 11-Aug-2003, and the last >> for RSTS was 20-Dec-2006. My point being I don't think any of >> these operating systems are still widely used. Virtually all >> of the inquiries over the last decade have been to ask how to >> move data from a PDP-11 to another system. > > RSX is still used in a whole bunch of places commercially. I know of > several places in Sweden at least, where RSX is still used for > production. Mostly embedded, but some interactive use as well. I suspect that RSX-11 is still used quite extensively, but since I never was directly involved, I have no specific information. > I do not know of any RT-11 or RSTS/E places, though. But maybe someone > else do? As far as I know, a number of commercial systems still use RSTS/E under emulators, in particular Ersatz-11. As for RT-11 and TSX-Plus, there are also a number of commercial systems in active operation. Jerome Fine
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| From | Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-23 15:46 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ireo44$krk$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> |
| In reply to | #460 |
On 2011-05-23 07.48, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> >On 2011-05-22 20.41, billy@MIX.COM wrote: >> >>> In vmsnet.pdp-11 paramucho<paramucho@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> With MENTEC gone the original version of RT-11 has been orphaned. >>> >> Rumors have it that someone have bought the PDP-11 software from what >> was Mentec... > > The rumours are probably correct. I believe they are. > If true, the information must still be VERY private. It would appear so. I would love to get more information out in the open. >>> And then, the last support email I received for the RT-11 Kermit >>> was so long ago (many years) it's now archived, so I can't easily >>> check the date. The last for RSX was 11-Aug-2003, and the last >>> for RSTS was 20-Dec-2006. My point being I don't think any of >>> these operating systems are still widely used. Virtually all >>> of the inquiries over the last decade have been to ask how to >>> move data from a PDP-11 to another system. >> >> RSX is still used in a whole bunch of places commercially. I know of >> several places in Sweden at least, where RSX is still used for >> production. Mostly embedded, but some interactive use as well. > > I suspect that RSX-11 is still used quite extensively, but since I never > was > directly involved, I have no specific information. But like I said, I do... >> I do not know of any RT-11 or RSTS/E places, though. But maybe someone >> else do? > > As far as I know, a number of commercial systems still use RSTS/E > under emulators, in particular Ersatz-11. > > As for RT-11 and TSX-Plus, there are also a number of commercial > systems in active operation. For RSX, I know of places both still using real hardware, and places using emulators. At least one place I know of still run 11/23 models, while several run 11/9x machines (I know of both Unibus and Q-bus machines). I think all that I know of are using SCSI disks nowadays, though. The last RD5x I saw was seven years ago... Johnny
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| From | billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 00:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <940bsvFcc3U2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #462 |
In article <ireo44$krk$1@iltempo.update.uu.se>, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes: > On 2011-05-23 07.48, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> >On 2011-05-22 20.41, billy@MIX.COM wrote: >>> >>>> In vmsnet.pdp-11 paramucho<paramucho@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> With MENTEC gone the original version of RT-11 has been orphaned. >>>> >>> Rumors have it that someone have bought the PDP-11 software from what >>> was Mentec... >> >> The rumours are probably correct. > > I believe they are. > >> If true, the information must still be VERY private. > > It would appear so. I would love to get more information out in the open. > >>>> And then, the last support email I received for the RT-11 Kermit >>>> was so long ago (many years) it's now archived, so I can't easily >>>> check the date. The last for RSX was 11-Aug-2003, and the last >>>> for RSTS was 20-Dec-2006. My point being I don't think any of >>>> these operating systems are still widely used. Virtually all >>>> of the inquiries over the last decade have been to ask how to >>>> move data from a PDP-11 to another system. >>> >>> RSX is still used in a whole bunch of places commercially. I know of >>> several places in Sweden at least, where RSX is still used for >>> production. Mostly embedded, but some interactive use as well. >> >> I suspect that RSX-11 is still used quite extensively, but since I never >> was >> directly involved, I have no specific information. > > But like I said, I do... > >>> I do not know of any RT-11 or RSTS/E places, though. But maybe someone >>> else do? >> >> As far as I know, a number of commercial systems still use RSTS/E >> under emulators, in particular Ersatz-11. >> >> As for RT-11 and TSX-Plus, there are also a number of commercial >> systems in active operation. > > For RSX, I know of places both still using real hardware, and places > using emulators. At least one place I know of still run 11/23 models, > while several run 11/9x machines (I know of both Unibus and Q-bus > machines). I think all that I know of are using SCSI disks nowadays, > though. The last RD5x I saw was seven years ago... Just out of curiosity, what do they do on it? I know a place that was using PDP-11's running RSTS long after most people thought the PDP was long dead. Don't know if they still are, but I kinda doubt it. But I can definitely say that if RSTS ran on faster/bigger hardware than a PDP-11 they probably would never have had a reason to leave it. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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| From | Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-23 17:43 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <ireuur$mqj$2@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> |
| In reply to | #465 |
On 2011-05-23 17.19, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article<ireo44$krk$1@iltempo.update.uu.se>, > Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se> writes: >> For RSX, I know of places both still using real hardware, and places >> using emulators. At least one place I know of still run 11/23 models, >> while several run 11/9x machines (I know of both Unibus and Q-bus >> machines). I think all that I know of are using SCSI disks nowadays, >> though. The last RD5x I saw was seven years ago... > > Just out of curiosity, what do they do on it? I know a place that was > using PDP-11's running RSTS long after most people thought the PDP was > long dead. Don't know if they still are, but I kinda doubt it. But > I can definitely say that if RSTS ran on faster/bigger hardware than > a PDP-11 they probably would never have had a reason to leave it. The 11/23 machines I know of are controlling a steel mill. Other places include paper mills, petrol engine manufacturing (test benches), airplane manufacturing (test benches) and public transport. But I haven't really searched through all of Sweden, but mostly just caught places somewhat near to where I used to live. Johnny
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| From | "Jerome H. Fine" <everyone@nospam.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-25 14:41 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <4ddd4d1f$0$306$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> |
| In reply to | #465 |
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>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >>>On 2011-05-23 07.48, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>>As far as I know, a number of commercial systems still use RSTS/E >>>under emulators, in particular Ersatz-11. >>> >>>As for RT-11 and TSX-Plus, there are also a number of commercial >>>systems in active operation. >>> >Just out of curiosity, what do they do on it? I know a place that was >using PDP-11's running RSTS long after most people thought the PDP was >long dead. Don't know if they still are, but I kinda doubt it. But >I can definitely say that if RSTS ran on faster/bigger hardware than >a PDP-11 they probably would never have had a reason to leave it. > When I run RT-11 under Ersatz-11 on a 2.63 GHz core 2 duo with 6 MB of L2 cache, I achieve approximately 100 times the speed of a PDP-11/93 CPU. As for disk I/O speeds, they are probably 200 times the speed of a typical SCSI drive (narrow 50 pin of course) on a Qbus host adapter. An example would the the CQD 220/TM using SCSI Seagate disk drives up to 9 GB. There is at least one commercial RSTS/E system that made the switch and has continued to support its customers under Ersatz-11. There are probably many more that I am not aware of. It was quite obvious to anyone who is able to use Ersatz-11 that such speeds would be attained and will be exceeded in the future without any changes to the PDP-11 software. As for bigger, running Ersatz-11 under Windows XP even with files limited to a physical size of 2 GB allows the PDP-11 OS to work with devices many times larger. However, since even RSTS/E limits files to 32 MB (or so I seem to remember), there does not seem to be much reason to work with what RSTS/E would see as a physical device much greater than 2 GB or 64 of those 32 MB files. On the other hand, under Windows XP and using 2 TB drives, Ersatz-11 could allow RSTS/E to believe that there were over 1000 devices of 2 GB each with 64 of those 2 MB files. And finally, Ersatz-11 also supports raw hard drive partitions of almost any size. So a 1 TB drive with 2 * 500 GB partitions can be used by RSTS/E if it actually supports drives of 500 GB. Note that there are also a number of non-DEC CPUs which directly execute PDP-11 code many times faster than the PDP-11/73. QED comes to mind and Mentec made some PDP-11 compatible CPUs as well. However, it is probably too late in most cases - which is actually quite sad from my point of view. As you and Johnny have pointed out, DEC made very wrong choices. I always thought that DEC would have been better advised to spin off PDP-11 software and hardware into a completely separate and independent unit as a profit centre all on its own in direct competition with the VAX and VMS. Not only would it have pushed VAX / VMS to be better, I suspect that the PDP-11 / RSTS / RSX / RT-11 would have survived on their own as well and supported their users far longer. As an example, MAC finally realized that they had to use the Intel chip. Perhaps the Alpha chip could also have been used to support RSTS/E, RSX-11 and RT-11 if it could have been sold in sufficient quantity. The talent at DEC would probably have been able to port the 16 bit OSs to 64 bit, perhaps running as a virtual machine, but still using the new instruction set in a 64 bit environment and memory. Just thinking (dreaming???) out loud. Jerome Fine
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| From | billy@MIX.COM |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 02:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <irf6lk$ckq$1@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #460 |
In vmsnet.pdp-11 Jerome H. Fine <everyone@nospam.com> wrote:
> Other than Y2K issues, I agree that V05.07 does have a few
> items fixed, mostly minor (which experienced RT-11 users
> would be able to fix all by themselves) [...]
How would they do this without having the sources?
I have disassembled a couple things, but even TRANSF, which
is a relatively simple piece of software, took some time to
do. And that was only so I could stick it, along with Xmodem
and Kermit, into a single program, back when I was offering
dial-up access to the SIG tapes and other such software.
> I believe that the ethernet device drivers were fixed by
> Megan Gentry
Not that I can recall, but possibly...
> While most RT-11 users will not encounter the bugs still
> present, there are at least two which cause RT-11 to crash.
What exactly are these?
> There are also many minor bugs which need to be fixed.
And, what exactly are these?
Again, I'm asking mostly out of curiousity, but I would
like to know. And, are you speaking about v5.7, or some
earlier release?
Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number
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| From | billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 13:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <941olsFre1U2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #468 |
In article <irf6lk$ckq$1@reader1.panix.com>, billy@MIX.COM writes: > In vmsnet.pdp-11 Jerome H. Fine <everyone@nospam.com> wrote: > >> Other than Y2K issues, I agree that V05.07 does have a few >> items fixed, mostly minor (which experienced RT-11 users >> would be able to fix all by themselves) [...] > > How would they do this without having the sources? > > I have disassembled a couple things, but even TRANSF, which > is a relatively simple piece of software, took some time to > do. And that was only so I could stick it, along with Xmodem > and Kermit, into a single program, back when I was offering > dial-up access to the SIG tapes and other such software. Do you still offer any kind of access to SIG Tapes? Which ones? I have some things I am still trying to find that would have been on SIG Tapes at one point or another. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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| From | Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 07:39 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <irgfue$382$2@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> |
| In reply to | #471 |
On 2011-05-24 06.03, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > In article<irf6lk$ckq$1@reader1.panix.com>, > billy@MIX.COM writes: >> In vmsnet.pdp-11 Jerome H. Fine<everyone@nospam.com> wrote: >> >>> Other than Y2K issues, I agree that V05.07 does have a few >>> items fixed, mostly minor (which experienced RT-11 users >>> would be able to fix all by themselves) [...] >> >> How would they do this without having the sources? >> >> I have disassembled a couple things, but even TRANSF, which >> is a relatively simple piece of software, took some time to >> do. And that was only so I could stick it, along with Xmodem >> and Kermit, into a single program, back when I was offering >> dial-up access to the SIG tapes and other such software. > > Do you still offer any kind of access to SIG Tapes? Which ones? > I have some things I am still trying to find that would have > been on SIG Tapes at one point or another. Have you checked trailing-edge? Or else ftp.update.uu.se. I know we have a bunch of old RT-11 sig tapes in there... Johnny
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| From | billy@MIX.COM |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 15:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <irghpv$job$1@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #474 |
In vmsnet.pdp-11 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
> Have you checked trailing-edge? Or else ftp.update.uu.se.
I also copied some things to Uppsala University, and in a
quick look I see some misc software not from the SIG tapes
(which I haven't yet found at the UNC site) is there.
Billy Y..
--
sub #'9+1 ,r0 ; convert ascii byte
add #9.+1 ,r0 ; to an integer
bcc 20$ ; not a number
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| From | Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 08:48 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <irgk14$4pf$1@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE> |
| In reply to | #476 |
On 2011-05-24 08.10, billy@MIX.COM wrote: > In vmsnet.pdp-11 Johnny Billquist<bqt@softjar.se> wrote: > >> Have you checked trailing-edge? Or else ftp.update.uu.se. > > I also copied some things to Uppsala University, and in a > quick look I see some misc software not from the SIG tapes > (which I haven't yet found at the UNC site) is there. Noone have really been taking care of the RT-11 parts, but the stuff there should still be good. I occasionally try to update the RSX pieces. :-) Johnny
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| From | billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2011-05-24 16:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <94266oFhnpU2@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #474 |
In article <irgfue$382$2@iltempo.update.uu.se>, Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes: > On 2011-05-24 06.03, Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> In article<irf6lk$ckq$1@reader1.panix.com>, >> billy@MIX.COM writes: >>> In vmsnet.pdp-11 Jerome H. Fine<everyone@nospam.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Other than Y2K issues, I agree that V05.07 does have a few >>>> items fixed, mostly minor (which experienced RT-11 users >>>> would be able to fix all by themselves) [...] >>> >>> How would they do this without having the sources? >>> >>> I have disassembled a couple things, but even TRANSF, which >>> is a relatively simple piece of software, took some time to >>> do. And that was only so I could stick it, along with Xmodem >>> and Kermit, into a single program, back when I was offering >>> dial-up access to the SIG tapes and other such software. >> >> Do you still offer any kind of access to SIG Tapes? Which ones? >> I have some things I am still trying to find that would have >> been on SIG Tapes at one point or another. > > Have you checked trailing-edge? Or else ftp.update.uu.se. I know we have > a bunch of old RT-11 sig tapes in there... > Yup. but a lot of them seem to exist only as a single page telling you what would be on the tape if they actually had it. :-( I have the RT-11 and RSX CD's from Tim. Sadly, RSTS seems to be the red- headed stepchild. Little if any seems to be available. And stuff from other SIGs like PASCAL are just as rare. Another of my pet peeves. I keep hearing how "the web" was going to guarantee the preservation of everything and yet there is so much of our computing history that has already been lost and more disappearing every day. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves billg999@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
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