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Apple II+ Keyboard repair

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  Apple II+ Keyboard repair kynrek <kynrek@gmail.com> - 2011-10-17 10:51 -0700
    Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair dog_cow@macgui.com (D Finnigan) - 2011-10-17 18:14 +0000
      Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2011-10-17 15:35 -0400
        Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair dog_cow@macgui.com (D Finnigan) - 2011-10-17 20:45 +0000
    Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair rittwage <rittwage@gmail.com> - 2011-10-17 14:41 -0700
      Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair kynrek <kynrek@gmail.com> - 2011-10-17 16:28 -0700
        Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com> - 2011-10-17 19:25 -0500
        Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair kynrek <kynrek@gmail.com> - 2011-10-17 17:32 -0700
        Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair Patrick Schaefer <pa.schaefer@web.de> - 2011-10-18 19:35 +0200
          Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair kynrek <kynrek@gmail.com> - 2011-10-20 17:19 -0700
            Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair dog_cow@macgui.com (D Finnigan) - 2011-10-21 00:45 +0000
              Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair Raymond Wiker <raw@rawmbp.lan> - 2011-10-21 06:41 +0200
                Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair kynrek <kynrek@gmail.com> - 2011-10-24 07:26 -0700
                Re: Apple II+ Keyboard repair kynrek <kynrek@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 16:43 -0700

#3061 — Apple II+ Keyboard repair

Someone gave me and apple ii+ but the keyboard did not work at all,
only the reset key worked. I replaced the keyboard encoder ic and a
few other components on the encoder board and now some of the keys do
make characters show on the screen :)

However the keys are not showing the right characters. for instance
the letters s and d both output the letter w, most of the number keys
output a ?. I think the individiual key switches might be bad but I'm
not sure. I can remove the key caps but I don't know how to get to the
switches underneath, I dont see any screws on the metal plate that
seperates the top of the keybaord with the  key caps and the underside
with the switches underneath.

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#3062

kynrek wrote:
> 
> However the keys are not showing the right characters. for instance
> the letters s and d both output the letter w, most of the number keys
> output a ?. 

I had a problem like this a few months ago, and as I recall, it was because
some of the key switches were stuck in the closed position. Now the cause
was probably different: I had washed the keyboard, and there was still water
making a circuit in some of the keys.

-- 
]DF$
Mac GUI Vault - A source for retro Apple II and
Macintosh computing.
http://macgui.com/vault/

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#3065

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, D Finnigan wrote:

> kynrek wrote:
>>
>> However the keys are not showing the right characters. for instance
>> the letters s and d both output the letter w, most of the number keys
>> output a ?.
>
> I had a problem like this a few months ago, and as I recall, it was because
> some of the key switches were stuck in the closed position. Now the cause
> was probably different: I had washed the keyboard, and there was still water
> making a circuit in some of the keys.
>
But I would figure a washing might just be what's needed.  Either because 
the keys stick, or something sticky has been spilled on the keyboard and 
is shorting out contacts somewhere.

I had an "IBM" keyboard apart recently and it was pretty disgusting.

It seems daring to actually wash a circuit board, but so long as one dries 
it very carefull (be patient, sit it out in the hot sun, or even put it in 
the oven at a very minimal temperature for a few hours).

I once found a decent stereo receiver in a snow bank, and it had picked up 
a lot of salt.  I was bold, washing it though avoiding getting the 
transformer wet, and I let it sit for some time before I tried it.  It 
worked fine, probably would have been fine without the washing, but I was 
more worried about long term corrosion from the salt.  It kept working 
until I found something more interesting.

     Michael

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#3066

Michael Black wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, D Finnigan wrote:
> 
>> kynrek wrote:
>>>
>>> However the keys are not showing the right characters. for instance
>>> the letters s and d both output the letter w, most of the number keys
>>> output a ?.
>>
>> I had a problem like this a few months ago, and as I recall, it was
>> because
>> some of the key switches were stuck in the closed position. Now the cause
>> was probably different: I had washed the keyboard, and there was still
>> water
>> making a circuit in some of the keys.
>>
> But I would figure a washing might just be what's needed.  Either because 
> the keys stick, or something sticky has been spilled on the keyboard and 
> is shorting out contacts somewhere.
> 
> I had an "IBM" keyboard apart recently and it was pretty disgusting.
> 
> It seems daring to actually wash a circuit board, but so long as one dries

> it very carefull (be patient, sit it out in the hot sun, or even put it in

> the oven at a very minimal temperature for a few hours).
> 

Personal notes from observing the effects of washing my Apple II Plus
keyboard:

Make sure to use the "purest" water possible; my green board has various
water and oil spots, likely from minerals and such in the water. Soap is
unnecessary; water itself is a solvent.

-- 
]DF$
Mac GUI Vault - A source for retro Apple II and
Macintosh computing.
http://macgui.com/vault/

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#3069

On Oct 17, 1:51 pm, kynrek <kyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Someone gave me and apple ii+ but the keyboard did not work at all,
> only the reset key worked. I replaced the keyboard encoder ic and a
> few other components on the encoder board and now some of the keys do
> make characters show on the screen :)
>
> However the keys are not showing the right characters. for instance
> the letters s and d both output the letter w, most of the number keys
> output a ?. I think the individiual key switches might be bad but I'm
> not sure. I can remove the key caps but I don't know how to get to the
> switches underneath, I dont see any screws on the metal plate that
> seperates the top of the keybaord with the  key caps and the underside
> with the switches underneath.

Where did you find an encoder chip to replace yours?!

-Pete

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#3075

On Oct 17, 5:41 pm, rittwage <rittw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 17, 1:51 pm, kynrek <kyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Someone gave me and apple ii+ but the keyboard did not work at all,
> > only the reset key worked. I replaced the keyboard encoder ic and a
> > few other components on the encoder board and now some of the keys do
> > make characters show on the screen :)
>
> > However the keys are not showing the right characters. for instance
> > the letters s and d both output the letter w, most of the number keys
> > output a ?. I think the individiual key switches might be bad but I'm
> > not sure. I can remove the key caps but I don't know how to get to the
> > switches underneath, I dont see any screws on the metal plate that
> > seperates the top of the keybaord with the  key caps and the underside
> > with the switches underneath.
>
> Where did you find an encoder chip to replace yours?!
>
> -Pete

I got my encoder from this here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AY5-3600-GI-Vintage-LSI-IC-40-Pin-1978-AY53600-/390121009363
on eBay he is asking 19.99 but I offered 12.95 and he accepted. This
chip brought the keyboard back from the dead. Replacing the other
components was not necessary to get it to start responding but I did
it just to preserve the encoder circuit. :)

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#3082

kynrek <kynrek@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 17, 5:41 pm, rittwage <rittw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 17, 1:51 pm, kynrek <kyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Someone gave me and apple ii+ but the keyboard did not work at all,
>>> only the reset key worked. I replaced the keyboard encoder ic and a
>>> few other components on the encoder board and now some of the keys do
>>> make characters show on the screen :)
>> 
>>> However the keys are not showing the right characters. for instance
>>> the letters s and d both output the letter w, most of the number keys
>>> output a ?. I think the individiual key switches might be bad but I'm
>>> not sure. I can remove the key caps but I don't know how to get to the
>>> switches underneath, I dont see any screws on the metal plate that
>>> seperates the top of the keybaord with the  key caps and the underside
>>> with the switches underneath.
>> 
>> Where did you find an encoder chip to replace yours?!
>> 
>> -Pete
> 
> I got my encoder from this here
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/AY5-3600-GI-Vintage-LSI-IC-40-Pin-1978-AY53600-/390121009363
> on eBay he is asking 19.99 but I offered 12.95 and he accepted. This
> chip brought the keyboard back from the dead. Replacing the other
> components was not necessary to get it to start responding but I did
> it just to preserve the encoder circuit. :)

Heck of a time to point this out, but your old encoder may actually be OK. 

The encoder has very high-impedance inputs, so board contamination can
prevent it from working. I wouldn't throw it out until it's been cleaned
and found not to work on a clean keyboard. 

That, BTW, is why even relatively clean moisture can render a keyboard
inoperative. 

-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon

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#3083

On Oct 17, 7:28 pm, kynrek <kyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 17, 5:41 pm, rittwage <rittw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 17, 1:51 pm, kynrek <kyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Someone gave me and apple ii+ but the keyboard did not work at all,
> > > only the reset key worked. I replaced the keyboard encoder ic and a
> > > few other components on the encoder board and now some of the keys do
> > > make characters show on the screen :)
>
> > > However the keys are not showing the right characters. for instance
> > > the letters s and d both output the letter w, most of the number keys
> > > output a ?. I think the individiual key switches might be bad but I'm
> > > not sure. I can remove the key caps but I don't know how to get to the
> > > switches underneath, I dont see any screws on the metal plate that
> > > seperates the top of the keybaord with the  key caps and the underside
> > > with the switches underneath.
>
> > Where did you find an encoder chip to replace yours?!
>
> > -Pete
>
> I got my encoder from this herehttp://www.ebay.com/itm/AY5-3600-GI-Vintage-LSI-IC-40-Pin-1978-AY5360...
> on eBay he is asking 19.99 but I offered 12.95 and he accepted. This
> chip brought the keyboard back from the dead. Replacing the other
> components was not necessary to get it to start responding but I did
> it just to preserve the encoder circuit. :)

Here's the before picture
<a href="http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii338/joshandstacy/?
action=view&current=2fd15f1c.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://
i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii338/joshandstacy/2fd15f1c.jpg"
border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

Ok I cleaned it with some purified water, dried it's best I could and
I  will leave it set for a few days

Here are some other pics of me replacing the logic gate ic's (did not
seem to make a difference in performance)

<a href="http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii338/joshandstacy/?
action=view&current=776e7df2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://
i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii338/joshandstacy/776e7df2.jpg"
border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

<a href="http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii338/joshandstacy/?
action=view&current=6006b812.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://
i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii338/joshandstacy/6006b812.jpg"
border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

<a href="http://s548.photobucket.com/albums/ii338/joshandstacy/?
action=view&current=824b7148.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://
i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii338/joshandstacy/824b7148.jpg"
border="0" alt="Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos" /></a>

By the way does anyone know where I can get another din16 male to make
cable (jumper) for the keyboard? I repaired mine but it's ugly.

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#3108

Am 18.10.2011 01:28 schrieb kynrek:

> I got my encoder from this here
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/AY5-3600-GI-Vintage-LSI-IC-40-Pin-1978-AY53600-/390121009363

Make sure to get the right one. The //e uses the same chip but with 
different programming. This will end you up with a new keyboard layout ;-)


Patrick

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#3186

On Oct 18, 1:35 pm, Patrick Schaefer <pa.schae...@web.de> wrote:
> Am 18.10.2011 01:28 schrieb kynrek:
>
> > I got my encoder from this here
> >http://www.ebay.com/itm/AY5-3600-GI-Vintage-LSI-IC-40-Pin-1978-AY5360...
>
> Make sure to get the right one. The //e uses the same chip but with
> different programming. This will end you up with a new keyboard layout ;-)
>
> Patrick

Are you saying that the one in the link is for the iie?

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#3187

kynrek wrote:
> On Oct 18, 1:35�pm, Patrick Schaefer <pa.schae...@web.de> wrote:
>> Am 18.10.2011 01:28 schrieb kynrek:
>>
>> > I got my encoder from this here
>> >http://www.ebay.com/itm/AY5-3600-GI-Vintage-LSI-IC-40-Pin-1978-AY5360...
>>
>> Make sure to get the right one. The //e uses the same chip but with
>> different programming. This will end you up with a new keyboard layout
>> ;-)
>>
>> Patrick
> 
> Are you saying that the one in the link is for the iie?
>

Check out the Apple II keyboard FAQ:


15.028 My IIe has a bad keyboard encoder IC. Where can I get a replacement?

The AY-5-3600 PRO keyboard encoder is not easy to find, but it can be
replaced by the KR-9600-PRO keyboard encoder. The 9600 IC has more features,
such as the bounce fix. I have installed one in my IIe and it works fine.

-- 
]DF$
Mac GUI Vault - A source for retro Apple II and
Macintosh computing.
http://macgui.com/vault/

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#3189

dog_cow@macgui.com (D Finnigan) writes:

> kynrek wrote:
>> On Oct 18, 1:35�pm, Patrick Schaefer <pa.schae...@web.de> wrote:
>>> Am 18.10.2011 01:28 schrieb kynrek:
>>>
>>> > I got my encoder from this here
>>> >http://www.ebay.com/itm/AY5-3600-GI-Vintage-LSI-IC-40-Pin-1978-AY5360...
>>>
>>> Make sure to get the right one. The //e uses the same chip but with
>>> different programming. This will end you up with a new keyboard layout
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> Patrick
>> 
>> Are you saying that the one in the link is for the iie?
>>
>
> Check out the Apple II keyboard FAQ:
>
>
> 15.028 My IIe has a bad keyboard encoder IC. Where can I get a replacement?
>
> The AY-5-3600 PRO keyboard encoder is not easy to find, but it can be
> replaced by the KR-9600-PRO keyboard encoder. The 9600 IC has more features,
> such as the bounce fix. I have installed one in my IIe and it works fine.

There is also Briel Computer's SuperEncoder:

http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=9

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#3235

On Oct 21, 12:41 am, Raymond Wiker <r...@rawmbp.lan> wrote:
> dog_...@macgui.com (D Finnigan) writes:
> > kynrek wrote:
> >> On Oct 18, 1:35�pm, Patrick Schaefer <pa.schae...@web.de> wrote:
> >>> Am 18.10.2011 01:28 schrieb kynrek:
>
> >>> > I got my encoder from this here
> >>> >http://www.ebay.com/itm/AY5-3600-GI-Vintage-LSI-IC-40-Pin-1978-AY5360...
>
> >>> Make sure to get the right one. The //e uses the same chip but with
> >>> different programming. This will end you up with a new keyboard layout
> >>> ;-)
>
> >>> Patrick
>
> >> Are you saying that the one in the link is for the iie?
>
> > Check out the Apple II keyboard FAQ:
>
> > 15.028 My IIe has a bad keyboard encoder IC. Where can I get a replacement?
>
> > The AY-5-3600 PRO keyboard encoder is not easy to find, but it can be
> > replaced by the KR-9600-PRO keyboard encoder. The 9600 IC has more features,
> > such as the bounce fix. I have installed one in my IIe and it works fine.
>
> There is also Briel Computer's SuperEncoder:
>
> http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=9

Thanks guys!! After tons of cleaning I am still getting a ? When
typing numbers etc. so I will try one of those replacement encoders.

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#3277

On Oct 21, 12:41 am, Raymond Wiker <r...@rawmbp.lan> wrote:
> dog_...@macgui.com (D Finnigan) writes:
> > kynrek wrote:
> >> On Oct 18, 1:35�pm, Patrick Schaefer <pa.schae...@web.de> wrote:
> >>> Am 18.10.2011 01:28 schrieb kynrek:
>
> >>> > I got my encoder from this here
> >>> >http://www.ebay.com/itm/AY5-3600-GI-Vintage-LSI-IC-40-Pin-1978-AY5360...
>
> >>> Make sure to get the right one. The //e uses the same chip but with
> >>> different programming. This will end you up with a new keyboard layout
> >>> ;-)
>
> >>> Patrick
>
> >> Are you saying that the one in the link is for the iie?
>
> > Check out the Apple II keyboard FAQ:
>
> > 15.028 My IIe has a bad keyboard encoder IC. Where can I get a replacement?
>
> > The AY-5-3600 PRO keyboard encoder is not easy to find, but it can be
> > replaced by the KR-9600-PRO keyboard encoder. The 9600 IC has more features,
> > such as the bounce fix. I have installed one in my IIe and it works fine.
>
> There is also Briel Computer's SuperEncoder:
>
> http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=9

Thanks Briel's SuperEncoder is exactly what I need!

here a summary:

When I first got my apple ii+ none of the keys except the reset escape
and control keys worked. I looked up a schematic and replaced most of
the components and the keyboard encoder IC.

Encoder chip that I purchased on ebay did not work it was showing the
wrong characters for the buttons like a ? when I pressed any of the
numbers etc. I guess it has to be specifically programmed for the
computer you are trying to use it on.

Vince Briel's  super encoder is a new production encoder for the Apple
ii/ii+ you can use the original keyboard and/or ps/2 keyboard so I
couldn't pass it up! it's at http://www.brielcomputers.com/ I
exchanged some emails with him and it sounds like it will do the
trick! He's a super nice guy.

I had a heck of a time finding a replacement cable for apple ii+
keyboard to motherboard jumper cord or wire or whatever you call it
the dip 16 connector. the pins were very brittle and broke off just by
removing the cable. Vince was kind enough to point me in the right
direction. Digikey part# C6PPS-1606G-ND. I guess they actually make
them when you order them but they are considered "in stock" so they
were not on back order and should ship soon and the cable only cost
like $2.75.

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