Groups > comp.sys.apple2.programmer > #5167 > unrolled thread

Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vs Merlin vs ???

Started by	"touvell@gmail.com" <touvell@gmail.com>
First post	2019-07-30 08:37 -0700
Last post	2019-08-02 09:26 -0700
Articles	7 on this page of 67 — 16 participants

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#5926 — Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???

From	Dave Touvell <apple2info.net@gmail.com>
Date	2021-12-15 17:58 -0800
Subject	Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???
Message-ID	<8315b158-ad2a-4a70-a653-aa30fa1e7274n@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#5242

On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 9:23:35 PM UTC-4, Dave Touvell wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 9:08:42 PM UTC-4, Antoine Vignau wrote: 
> > OK Denis. I never used the Merlin icons :-) 
> > Antoine
> Denis is right, the file is apparently corrupt. I used DicEd to open the files and the icon for Converter is corrupt and for the Interals CDA is missing. The v4.08 icons file is fine, so I just used it. 
> 
> Thanks again for making the package available, though! 
> 
> -Dave

Well, 2 years later and I still haven't learned assembly language. Life happened, but we just sold our house and when I was packing up to move, I got a little nostalgic about the Apple II stuff again. Hopefully I can find some time to get back into it after the first of the year.

Hope everyone has a Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays.

-Dave

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#5927 — Woz learns assembly language

From	D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com>
Date	2021-12-16 03:28 +0000
Subject	Woz learns assembly language
Message-ID	<dog_cow-1639625300@macgui.com>
In reply to	#5926

Has anyone ever thought about how Woz learned 6502 assembly language for the
Apple I and Apple II? I have wondered it a few times when I look at Monitor
source and think about the integer BASIC that he wrote. How long did it take
him to learn 6502 and become proficient enough to write Monitor, BASIC, and
other utilities for the Apple? Did Woz know assembly for another CPU?

6502 was a fairly new CPU, and even though based on the earlier Motorola
6800, neither one had been out for more than a few years by the time the
Apple I and II were introduced in '76 and '77.

He had others around to help him, at least to the extent of answering his
questions or loaning him technical docs; this is certain.

Anyone know more about how Woz learned to program the 6502?

-- 
]DF$
The New Apple II User's Guide:
https://macgui.com/newa2guide/

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#5928 — Re: Woz learns assembly language

From	awanderin <awanderin@gmail.com>
Date	2021-12-16 00:41 -0700
Subject	Re: Woz learns assembly language
Message-ID	<yubfsqtvvwq.fsf@gmail.com>
In reply to	#5927

D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com> writes:

> Has anyone ever thought about how Woz learned 6502 assembly language for the
> Apple I and Apple II? I have wondered it a few times when I look at Monitor
> source and think about the integer BASIC that he wrote. How long did it take
> him to learn 6502 and become proficient enough to write Monitor, BASIC, and
> other utilities for the Apple? Did Woz know assembly for another CPU?
>
> 6502 was a fairly new CPU, and even though based on the earlier Motorola
> 6800, neither one had been out for more than a few years by the time the
> Apple I and II were introduced in '76 and '77.
>
> He had others around to help him, at least to the extent of answering his
> questions or loaning him technical docs; this is certain.
>
> Anyone know more about how Woz learned to program the 6502?

No idea how Woz learned 6502, but I'll guess.

Woz says that he designed many computers before he actually built the
Apple I.  He talked about how he obsessed over things, like how many
chips in a design.  I suspect he also obsessed over the details in data
books and manuals for computers.  He basically crammed his mind full of
every detail he could find.

I would bet he probably studied the opcodes, and constantly thought
about the result he wanted to achieve.  His intense concentration and
his subconscious probably helped a ton.

One example is the binary-to-decimal converter he wrote.  I cannot find
it right now, but I recall he used shifts (ASL) with BCD-mode (SED), and
came up with a pretty clever way to convert a number for printing.
It seems like he tried to think of every possible way to use the
different 6502 instructions.  Maybe, that's how he came up with this
stuff?

The other thing is, he had already built many electronic devices, and
understood digital logic circuits really well.  When he looked at the
6502 data book, he probably figured out how it worked inside.  It might
have not been too much more effort for him to put those opcodes to use.

-- 
--
Jerry    awanderin at gmail dot com

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#5929 — Re: Woz learns assembly language

From	Michael J. Mahon <mjmahon@aol.com>
Date	2021-12-18 01:16 -0600
Subject	Re: Woz learns assembly language
Message-ID	<99-dnUkpb8ApFyD8nZ2dnUU7-ffNnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to	#5928

awanderin <awanderin@gmail.com> wrote:
> D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com> writes:
> 
>> Has anyone ever thought about how Woz learned 6502 assembly language for the
>> Apple I and Apple II? I have wondered it a few times when I look at Monitor
>> source and think about the integer BASIC that he wrote. How long did it take
>> him to learn 6502 and become proficient enough to write Monitor, BASIC, and
>> other utilities for the Apple? Did Woz know assembly for another CPU?
>> 
>> 6502 was a fairly new CPU, and even though based on the earlier Motorola
>> 6800, neither one had been out for more than a few years by the time the
>> Apple I and II were introduced in '76 and '77.
>> 
>> He had others around to help him, at least to the extent of answering his
>> questions or loaning him technical docs; this is certain.
>> 
>> Anyone know more about how Woz learned to program the 6502?
> 
> No idea how Woz learned 6502, but I'll guess.
> 
> Woz says that he designed many computers before he actually built the
> Apple I.  He talked about how he obsessed over things, like how many
> chips in a design.  I suspect he also obsessed over the details in data
> books and manuals for computers.  He basically crammed his mind full of
> every detail he could find.
> 
> I would bet he probably studied the opcodes, and constantly thought
> about the result he wanted to achieve.  His intense concentration and
> his subconscious probably helped a ton.
> 
> One example is the binary-to-decimal converter he wrote.  I cannot find
> it right now, but I recall he used shifts (ASL) with BCD-mode (SED), and
> came up with a pretty clever way to convert a number for printing.
> It seems like he tried to think of every possible way to use the
> different 6502 instructions.  Maybe, that's how he came up with this
> stuff?
> 
> The other thing is, he had already built many electronic devices, and
> understood digital logic circuits really well.  When he looked at the
> 6502 data book, he probably figured out how it worked inside.  It might
> have not been too much more effort for him to put those opcodes to use.
> 

Assembly language is one-for-one equivalent to machine language for the
target processor.  

For 8-bit machines it is much lower level than the usual programming
languages. As a result, it is somewhat confusing to people who are
accustomed to higher level languages, where “+” can mean “add two multibyte
floating point numbers”, which requires perhaps a hundred 6502
instructions.

Machine language is much lower level and much simpler, performing
elementary logical and arithmetic operations on single bytes.

Machines with wider data paths and more advanced data types, like floating
point, all have similar basic operations, but with wider and more complex
data types. 

Once you have mastered *any* machine language you are well prepared to
learn another. 

Woz was quite familiar with machine level instructions, and it would be
straightforward to “port” that familiarity to the 6502, then learn the
“tricks” peculiar to the 6502 and its instruction set. 

To move from an understanding of a high level language to machine language,
prepare yourself for a drastic drop in semantic level and RTFM over and
over. When you have grasped the concept that almost any high level
operation translates into many machine language instructions, it all starts
to make sense.  Then you discover that many logical and arithmetic
operations can be performed much more efficiently at the machine language
level. 

-- 
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II:  http://michaeljmahon.com

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#5179 — Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???

From	Andy McFadden <thefadden@gmail.com>
Date	2019-08-01 08:05 -0700
Subject	Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???
Message-ID	<9160328b-9638-4399-83df-9566425da1c5@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#5177

On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 7:51:49 PM UTC-7, tou...@gmail.com wrote:
> There also seems to be more Merlin source code to examine and play around with than other assemblers, which is one of the ways I learn.

If you'd like a IIgs example project in Orca/M, including a "permanent" init file, classic desk accessory, finder extension, desktop application, and other random junk, you can download "hpsource.shk" from https://fadden.com/apple2/hardpressed.html .

Probably not the best place to start, but if you're wondering what a large project looks like in Orca/M... it's a large project in Orca/M.

I also used a make utility, the ROSE editor, one of the Rez generators (Genesys), an icon editor (DIcEd), GSBug + NiftyList, a debugging card, ...

Start with Merlin and 8-bit software. :-)

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#5183 — Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???

From	"touvell@gmail.com" <touvell@gmail.com>
Date	2019-08-01 16:12 -0700
Subject	Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???
Message-ID	<025afdbf-adcb-4dbe-8049-78ce03fc697f@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#5179

On Thursday, August 1, 2019 at 11:05:54 AM UTC-4, Andy McFadden wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 7:51:49 PM UTC-7, tou...@gmail.com wrote:
> > There also seems to be more Merlin source code to examine and play around with than other assemblers, which is one of the ways I learn.
> 
> If you'd like a IIgs example project in Orca/M, including a "permanent" init file, classic desk accessory, finder extension, desktop application, and other random junk, you can download "hpsource.shk" from https://fadden.com/apple2/hardpressed.html .
> 
> Probably not the best place to start, but if you're wondering what a large project looks like in Orca/M... it's a large project in Orca/M.
> 
> I also used a make utility, the ROSE editor, one of the Rez generators (Genesys), an icon editor (DIcEd), GSBug + NiftyList, a debugging card, ...
> 
> Start with Merlin and 8-bit software. :-)

Thanks Andy, I'll grab that and take a look. I don't expect to get into that large of a project, but it should be interesting to study at some point.

I'm thinking Merlin and 8-bit software is a great place to start. If I can get it working. See my post above.

Thanks,
-Dave

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#5192 — Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???

From	eeastman <eeastman@gmail.com>
Date	2019-08-02 09:26 -0700
Subject	Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???
Message-ID	<6b8132e7-8ffd-46fd-886b-dd319e323473@googlegroups.com>
In reply to	#5177

On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 9:51:49 PM UTC-5, tou...@gmail.com wrote:
> Update:
> 
> I installed ORCA/M 2.1.0 and Merlin 16+ 4.08 (BTW, are those the latest versions?) onto a clean GSOS 6.0.1 hard drive image for use with ActiveGS & GSPort, and played around with them, going through the "Hello World" examples in each, and making a few changes to them to see what happens.
> 
> I have to say, I think I like Merlin better, especially for learning assembly language. ORCA/M seemed more like a "high-level" language, at least with the example program in the manual. Everything was done through calls to macros or libraries. That's probably great for production, but not so good for understanding what's going on.
> 
> Merlin's example actually used opcodes to do things, which is more what I'm looking for. I want something a little above the mini-assembler to learn with, but that is powerful enough to be useful as my learning progresses. It looks like Merlin is that assembler. I think I see why it's so popular. 
> 
> I'm sure both of them can do things either way, and it's just how the authors chose the examples to present, so nothing is set in stone after just one evening of playing around. But Merlin is definitely easy to use and looks good at this point. There also seems to be more Merlin source code to examine and play around with than other assemblers, which is one of the ways I learn.
> 
> Thanks for the help,
> -Dave

Thanks for sharing your experience.  Not may reviews these days from a beginner like me, I appreciate your perspective a little easier.  I hope you post more on your experience and your process as you go forward.
-Ed

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Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vs Merlin vs ???

Contents

#5926 — Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???

#5927 — Woz learns assembly language

#5928 — Re: Woz learns assembly language

#5929 — Re: Woz learns assembly language

#5179 — Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???

#5183 — Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???

#5192 — Re: Assembler for Learning Assembly Language Programming ORCA vsMerlin vs ???