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Viewing clipboard

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  Viewing clipboard Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> - 2012-04-11 20:11 +0100
    Re: Viewing clipboard Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> - 2012-04-11 23:43 +0100
      Re: Viewing clipboard Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 12:34 +0100
    Re: Viewing clipboard Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 09:28 +0100
    Re: Viewing clipboard Chris Johnson <chrisjohnson+news@spamcop.net> - 2012-04-12 10:14 +0100
      Re: Viewing clipboard "Bruce Goatly" <ss4@goatly.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 11:23 +0100
        Re: Viewing clipboard Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> - 2012-04-12 14:25 +0100
          Re: Viewing clipboard "Bruce Goatly" <ss4@goatly.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 15:05 +0100
          Re: Viewing clipboard Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 15:34 +0100
            Re: Viewing clipboard Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> - 2012-04-12 16:15 +0100
              Re: Viewing clipboard Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 16:43 +0100
            Re: Viewing clipboard charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 17:44 +0100
              Re: Viewing clipboard Martin Wuerthner <spamtrap@mw-software.com> - 2012-04-12 20:04 +0200
            Re: Viewing clipboard Martin Wuerthner <spamtrap@mw-software.com> - 2012-04-12 20:28 +0200
              Re: Viewing clipboard Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 20:23 +0100
                Re: Viewing clipboard Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> - 2012-04-12 22:07 +0100
                  Re: Viewing clipboard Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> - 2012-04-12 22:46 +0100
                    Re: Viewing clipboard Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> - 2012-04-12 23:33 +0100

#4881 — Viewing clipboard

Is there anyway of looking at the clipboard to 'see' if erroneous
characters are being set after a CTRL-C? I'm particularly interested
in EasiWriter's clipboard and suspect CR's being inadvertently inserted
before and after a selection of text. How do I prove it? If this is
happening what might cause it?

RISC OS 5.16/EasiWriter, V8.92

-- 
Richard Ashbery

Wakefield 2012 - Saturday 28th April
http://www.wakefieldshow.org.uk

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#4882

On 11 Apr, Richard Ashbery wrote in message
    <527ee18ddabasura@invalid.addr.uk>:

> Is there anyway of looking at the clipboard to 'see' if erroneous
> characters are being set after a CTRL-C? I'm particularly interested in
> EasiWriter's clipboard and suspect CR's being inadvertently inserted
> before and after a selection of text. How do I prove it?

With difficulty.  If you're looking at C&P between applications, then
snooping on the relevant messages using Reporter + MsgMon (or similar) might
be an option as you could see the raw bytes of data that get passed around.

That won't work for C&P within the same application, as the Wimp is never
involved there.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England             Wakefield Acorn & RISC OS Show
                                             Saturday 28 April 2012
http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/           http://www.wakefieldshow.org.uk/

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#4888

In article <mpro.m2c73r01oj52o01i5.news@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt
<URL:mailto:news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> On 11 Apr, Richard Ashbery wrote in message
>     <527ee18ddabasura@invalid.addr.uk>:
> 
> > Is there anyway of looking at the clipboard to 'see' if erroneous
> > characters are being set after a CTRL-C? I'm particularly interested in
> > EasiWriter's clipboard and suspect CR's being inadvertently inserted
> > before and after a selection of text. How do I prove it?
> 
> With difficulty.  If you're looking at C&P between applications, then
> snooping on the relevant messages using Reporter + MsgMon (or similar) might
> be an option as you could see the raw bytes of data that get passed around.
> 
> That won't work for C&P within the same application, as the Wimp is never
> involved there.

Pasting into !Edit might be informative. It shows CR and LF.



Chris Evans

-- 
CJE Micro's / 4D                'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222             Fax: 01903 523679
chris@cjemicros.co.uk     http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex,     BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!

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#4884

Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> wrote:

> Is there anyway of looking at the clipboard

If you have UniServer 4 you can look at the clip that is being exported to
Windows.

Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents

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#4885

In article <527ee18ddabasura@invalid.addr.uk>,
   Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> wrote:
> Is there anyway of looking at the clipboard to 'see' if erroneous
> characters are being set after a CTRL-C? I'm particularly
> interested in EasiWriter's clipboard and suspect CR's being
> inadvertently inserted before and after a selection of text. How do
> I prove it? If this is happening what might cause it?

Where are you pasting to? I have just tried (a) copy and paste within
the same document and (b) copy and paste from one doc to a second
(both in TW) and it all works as it should.

However, I have just pasted from TW to Zap, and that has definitely
added a LF (chr 10) after the pasted text, but nothing before.

Same test from TW to Ovation Pro, same result, i.e. a LF added after
the pasted text.

> RISC OS 5.16/EasiWriter, V8.92

RISC OS 5.18 and TechWriter 8.92. I think the core code is common
between EW and TW.

-- 
Chris Johnson

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#4886

Chris Johnson wrote:
> In article <527ee18ddabasura@invalid.addr.uk>,
>   Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> wrote:
>> Is there anyway of looking at the clipboard to 'see' if erroneous
>> characters are being set after a CTRL-C? I'm particularly
>> interested in EasiWriter's clipboard and suspect CR's being
>> inadvertently inserted before and after a selection of text. How do
>> I prove it? If this is happening what might cause it?
>
> Where are you pasting to? I have just tried (a) copy and paste within
> the same document and (b) copy and paste from one doc to a second
> (both in TW) and it all works as it should.

Martin Wuerthner has posted on the EW/TW list that UniPrint's 'UniClip' 
feature can cause this effect, so the OP needs to check for other 
applications that could be breaking the RISC OS clipboard.

-- 
Bruce

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#4891

In article <U2yhr.22076$f81.12888@fx29.am4>, Bruce Goatly
<ss4@goatly.co.uk> wrote:
> Chris Johnson wrote:
> > In article <527ee18ddabasura@invalid.addr.uk>, Richard Ashbery
> >   <basura@invalid.addr.uk> wrote:
> >> Is there anyway of looking at the clipboard to 'see' if
> >> erroneous characters are being set after a CTRL-C? I'm
> >> particularly interested in EasiWriter's clipboard and suspect
> >> CR's being inadvertently inserted before and after a selection
> >> of text. How do I prove it? If this is happening what might
> >> cause it?
> >
> > Where are you pasting to? I have just tried (a) copy and paste
> > within the same document and (b) copy and paste from one doc to a
> > second (both in TW) and it all works as it should.

> Martin Wuerthner has posted on the EW/TW list that UniPrint's
> 'UniClip' feature can cause this effect, so the OP needs to check
> for other applications that could be breaking the RISC OS
> clipboard.

Unfortunately I don't remember seeing that reported on EW/TW mailing
list.

Thank you Bruce for that valuable information - I do use UniServer 4
and this is what is causing my problem. You are absolutely correct in
that if you switch off UniClip's clipboard utility then EasiWriter's
CTRL-C/CTRL-V works as expected.

I've been tearing my hair out trying to resolve this issue without
success but to think that just disabling UniClip's clipboard cures it.
Has anyone got back to RComp to try and ascertain why this is happening
and is there a longer term solution? I use the RISC OS to Windows 7
clipboard function regularly but having to remember to switch this
option on each time is annoying.

Many thanks again for all those who replied with other useful
suggestions.

-- 
Richard Ashbery

Wakefield 2012 - Saturday 28th April
http://www.wakefieldshow.org.uk

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#4892

Richard Ashbery wrote:


> Unfortunately I don't remember seeing that reported on EW/TW mailing
> list.


It was only today that Martin mentioned it. Maybe the message has yet to 
arrive?

> Thank you Bruce for that valuable information - I do use UniServer 4
> and this is what is causing my problem. You are absolutely correct in
> that if you switch off UniClip's clipboard utility then EasiWriter's
> CTRL-C/CTRL-V works as expected.
>
> I've been tearing my hair out trying to resolve this issue without
> success but to think that just disabling UniClip's clipboard cures it.
> Has anyone got back to RComp to try and ascertain why this is happening
> and is there a longer term solution?

As it happens, Martin also wrote in the same message:

> I remember discussing this problem with Alan Wrigley,
> but somehow we did not reach a conclusion back then.
> It is possible to implement a feature like UniClip without
> disturbing other applications. The Select ClipboardHolder
> module does something similar, and that works correctly.

... so the answer seems to be that something could be done but hasn't been.

Glad it's sorted for you now!

-- 
Bruce

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#4893

Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> wrote:

> I've been tearing my hair out trying to resolve this issue without
> success but to think that just disabling UniClip's clipboard cures it.
> Has anyone got back to RComp to try and ascertain why this is happening
> and is there a longer term solution?

The problem is not with UniClip, and disabling UniClip will only solve it in
respect of clips passed around within EW and not clips passed between
applications (which is after all the whole point of the global clipboard).
The problem is caused by EasiWriter, which when it holds the clipboard and
is asked for the current clip by another application, adds a linefeed to it.
Presumably with purely local clipping EW just ignores its own linefeed, but
UniClip can only work by taking control of the clipboard and if EW tells it
that the clip contains a linefeed then that's what it will copy.

You can verify this by killing the UniServer module then copying some text
in EW and pasting it to another clipboard-aware app, e.g. Datapower. You
will find a spurious linefeed added to the end.

Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents

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#4894

In article
<gemini.m2df5v00d9p9c013w.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>,
   Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
> Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> wrote:

> > I've been tearing my hair out trying to resolve this issue
> > without success but to think that just disabling UniClip's
> > clipboard cures it. Has anyone got back to RComp to try and
> > ascertain why this is happening and is there a longer term
> > solution?

> The problem is not with UniClip, and disabling UniClip will only
> solve it in respect of clips passed around within EW and not clips
> passed between applications (which is after all the whole point of
> the global clipboard). The problem is caused by EasiWriter, which
> when it holds the clipboard and is asked for the current clip by
> another application, adds a linefeed to it. Presumably with purely
> local clipping EW just ignores its own linefeed, but UniClip can
> only work by taking control of the clipboard and if EW tells it
> that the clip contains a linefeed then that's what it will copy.

I don't want to get involved between views of two highly respected
programmers as my programming knowledge is too poor to discuss the
issues intelligently so I will keep out of it. It would be nice
sometime in the future that the issue could be resolved to satisfy all
parties. For the time being disabling UniClip when using EasiWriter
works.

> You can verify this by killing the UniServer module then copying
> some text in EW and pasting it to another clipboard-aware app, e.g.
> Datapower. You will find a spurious linefeed added to the end.

I can't do this as I don't use Datapower.

-- 
Richard Ashbery

Wakefield 2012 - Saturday 28th April
http://www.wakefieldshow.org.uk

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#4896

Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> wrote:

> I don't want to get involved between views of two highly respected
> programmers as my programming knowledge is too poor to discuss the
> issues intelligently so I will keep out of it. It would be nice
> sometime in the future that the issue could be resolved to satisfy all
> parties. For the time being disabling UniClip when using EasiWriter
> works.

I will talk to Martin of course, but AFAICS the culprit in this case is EW.
Ovation Pro, Datapower, Netsurf, Messenger Pro's EmailEdit do not add a
linefeed. EasiWriter does.

Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents

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#4897

In article
<gemini.m2df5v00d9p9c013w.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>,
   Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
> Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> wrote:

> > I've been tearing my hair out trying to resolve this issue without
> > success but to think that just disabling UniClip's clipboard cures it.
> > Has anyone got back to RComp to try and ascertain why this is happening
> > and is there a longer term solution?

> The problem is not with UniClip, and disabling UniClip will only solve it
> in respect of clips passed around within EW and not clips passed between
> applications (which is after all the whole point of the global
> clipboard). The problem is caused by EasiWriter, which when it holds the
> clipboard and is asked for the current clip by another application, adds
> a linefeed to it. Presumably with purely local clipping EW just ignores
> its own linefeed, but UniClip can only work by taking control of the
> clipboard and if EW tells it that the clip contains a linefeed then
> that's what it will copy.

In OvPro having the global clipboard in use, means that 'cut and paste'
only copies text, not styles, etc.


> You can verify this by killing the UniServer module then copying some text
> in EW and pasting it to another clipboard-aware app, e.g. Datapower. You
> will find a spurious linefeed added to the end.

> Alan

-- 
From KT24 

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18 

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#4898

In message <527f57ed32charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>
          charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article
> <gemini.m2df5v00d9p9c013w.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>,
>    Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
>> Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> wrote:

>>> I've been tearing my hair out trying to resolve this issue without
>>> success but to think that just disabling UniClip's clipboard cures it.
>>> Has anyone got back to RComp to try and ascertain why this is happening
>>> and is there a longer term solution?

>> The problem is not with UniClip, and disabling UniClip will only solve it
>> in respect of clips passed around within EW and not clips passed between
>> applications (which is after all the whole point of the global
>> clipboard). The problem is caused by EasiWriter, which when it holds the
>> clipboard and is asked for the current clip by another application, adds
>> a linefeed to it. Presumably with purely local clipping EW just ignores
>> its own linefeed, but UniClip can only work by taking control of the
>> clipboard and if EW tells it that the clip contains a linefeed then
>> that's what it will copy.

> In OvPro having the global clipboard in use, means that 'cut and paste'
> only copies text, not styles, etc.

Yes, that is the more serious drawback of UniClip. The same happens 
with EasiWriter. If you switch off UniClip, everything returns to 
normal.

-- 
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Wuerthner         MW Software      http://www.mw-software.com/
        RISC OS Software for Design, Printing and Publishing
---------------------------------------------------------------------

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#4899

In message <gemini.m2df5v00d9p9c013w.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyou 
rself.co.uk>
          Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> 
wrote:

> Richard Ashbery <basura@invalid.addr.uk> wrote:

>> I've been tearing my hair out trying to resolve this issue without
>> success but to think that just disabling UniClip's clipboard cures it.
>> Has anyone got back to RComp to try and ascertain why this is happening
>> and is there a longer term solution?

> The problem is not with UniClip, and disabling UniClip will only solve it in
> respect of clips passed around within EW and not clips passed between
> applications (which is after all the whole point of the global clipboard).
> The problem is caused by EasiWriter, which when it holds the clipboard and
> is asked for the current clip by another application, adds a linefeed to it.
> Presumably with purely local clipping EW just ignores its own linefeed, but
> UniClip can only work by taking control of the clipboard and if EW tells it
> that the clip contains a linefeed then that's what it will copy.

No, unfortunately, that is not at all what happens, Alan.

UniClip cripples the global clipboard and causes serious issues. The 
extra line feed is a just the tip of the iceberg. The linefeed problem 
could indeed be fixed easily in EasiWriter, but that would not solve 
the real problem, and since the real problem has to be solved anyway 
and that will make the linefeed problem go away, there is little point 
in changing EasiWriter.

The real problem is that UniClip prevents text with effects and styles 
to be copied and pasted within EasiWriter, and that affects not only 
EasiWriter but also copying and pasting within OvationPro (if the 
latter has been configured to use the global clipboard). With UniClip 
enabled everything is pasted as plain text.

When you copy text in EasiWriter, EasiWriter puts an EasiWriter 
document on the clipboard. UniClip asks EasiWriter to convert the 
clipboard contents to plain text and then puts that plain text on the 
clipboard itself, destroying the original rich content of the 
clipboard. The same happens with OvationPro.

So, UniClip effectively downgrades the clipboard from its original 
rich text content to plain text. That was not the idea of the 
clipboard protocol.

There are several ways of fixing UniClip. I will put them in an e-mail 
to you.

-- 
Martin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Wuerthner         MW Software      http://www.mw-software.com/
        RISC OS Software for Design, Printing and Publishing
---------------------------------------------------------------------

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#4902

Martin Wuerthner <spamtrap@mw-software.com> wrote:

> The real problem is that UniClip prevents text with effects and styles 
> to be copied and pasted within EasiWriter, and that affects not only 
> EasiWriter but also copying and pasting within OvationPro (if the 
> latter has been configured to use the global clipboard). With UniClip 
> enabled everything is pasted as plain text.

From UniClip Help:

"Only text clips can be shared in this version of UniServer."

And:

"The Disable option disables automatic sharing of clips with other
computers, though it still allows drag-and-drop via this window. It does not
disable the entire RISC OS clipboard. This is useful if you have an
application that stores clips in its own format (e.g. TechWriter) and
UniClip would lose that format by taking over the clip as text."

Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents

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#4906

On 12 Apr, Alan Wrigley wrote in message
    <gemini.m2dsjl000uo6r009c.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>:

> Martin Wuerthner <spamtrap@mw-software.com> wrote:
> 
> > The real problem is that UniClip prevents text with effects and styles
> > to be copied and pasted within EasiWriter, and that affects not only
> > EasiWriter but also copying and pasting within OvationPro (if the latter
> > has been configured to use the global clipboard). With UniClip enabled
> > everything is pasted as plain text.
> 
> From UniClip Help:
> 
> "Only text clips can be shared in this version of UniServer."
> 
> And:
> 
> "The Disable option disables automatic sharing of clips with other
> computers, though it still allows drag-and-drop via this window. It does
> not disable the entire RISC OS clipboard. This is useful if you have an
> application that stores clips in its own format (e.g. TechWriter) and
> UniClip would lose that format by taking over the clip as text."

Why does UniClip have to take over the clipboard contents, though?  Unless
I've missed something, there's no need for it to: it should just ask for a
copy in plain text from the current owner whenever it needs one.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England             Wakefield Acorn & RISC OS Show
                                             Saturday 28 April 2012
http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/           http://www.wakefieldshow.org.uk/

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#4907

Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:

> Why does UniClip have to take over the clipboard contents, though?  Unless
> I've missed something, there's no need for it to: it should just ask for a
> copy in plain text from the current owner whenever it needs one.

Unfortunately it can't work like that. Because it's sharing the clipboard
between two or more machines, it can't just supply a clip on demand as it
would normally, because the most recent clip could reside on any machine.
Therefore the only way it can work is for each machine to notify the others
when a clip is posted. On RISC OS, this is not possible unless UniClip has
continual ownership of the clipboard, because otherwise if consecutive clips
are posted from the same application, only the first would be visible to the
outside world because the second time around the app concerned would already
have ownership of the clipboard and would process the copy operation
internally.

I have discussed this in the past with Martin and suggested an alternative
whereby one machine on the network manages the clipboard for all, but on
reflection I don't think that would work either because of the situation
I've described above, i.e. where an application doesn't claim the clipboard
for a second clip because it already has it.

The whole situation arises because the 'global clipboard' on RISC OS is not
a real clipboard at all but merely a protocol for apps to talk to each other
when they want to share.

I think it's time this discussion moved to c.s.a.p so I'm going to start a
new thread there with my reading of the situation.

Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents

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#4908

On 12 Apr, Alan Wrigley wrote in message
    <gemini.m2dz4y005xu4d009c.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>:

> I think it's time this discussion moved to c.s.a.p so I'm going to start a
> new thread there with my reading of the situation.

That makes sense; I've responded over there... :-)

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England             Wakefield Acorn & RISC OS Show
                                             Saturday 28 April 2012
http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/           http://www.wakefieldshow.org.uk/

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