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Gove in a virtual world

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  Gove in a virtual world ChrisF <c.n.l.f@virgin.net> - 2011-12-15 20:47 +0000
    Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 20:53 +0000
      Re: Gove in a virtual world Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 21:06 +0000
        Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 22:19 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 07:18 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 09:14 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 09:34 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 10:46 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 14:48 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:10 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Jess <phantasm_39@hotmail.com> - 2011-12-18 09:20 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-19 11:36 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world jgharston <jgh@arcade.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 07:04 -0800
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 08:46 +0100
          Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-16 11:07 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 13:44 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-16 17:02 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 19:20 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:17 +0100
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world "John Williams (News)" <UCEbin@tiscali.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:35 +0100
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 14:57 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-16 21:12 +0100
              Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 13:04 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 07:50 +0000
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 15:31 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-18 22:27 +0100
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world Patric Albutat <albutat@gmx.de> - 2011-12-19 01:32 +0100
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 12:32 +0000
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-19 14:22 +0100
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-19 14:00 +0000
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 19:59 +0100
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 20:13 +0000
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 21:35 +0100
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 21:05 +0000
                              Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 22:10 +0100
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Bryn Evans <d@a.invalid> - 2011-12-20 16:42 +0000
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world Barry Gray <barrygray@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:12 +0000
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:07 +0100
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Barry Gray <barrygray@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 09:33 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 18:10 +0100
                              Re: Gove in a virtual world Patric Albutat <albutat@gmx.de> - 2011-12-21 20:46 +0100
                                Re: Gove in a virtual world SG nws <nwsgrp@ntlworld.com> - 2011-12-21 21:21 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world John <newsmcc@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 14:00 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world Chris <decordova@ukgateway.net> - 2011-12-24 19:46 +0100
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 06:26 +0100
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:15 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 09:41 +0100
              Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:21 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 21:24 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:09 +0100
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-18 10:32 +0000
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world trevj <trevj@cwazy.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 07:45 -0800
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:08 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:33 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:46 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 15:37 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:23 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world "Bruce Goatly" <ss4@goatly.co.uk> - 2011-12-18 10:42 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 15:58 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:17 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:47 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:57 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 19:08 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:51 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:17 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 18:02 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world NedA <news@ned.uk.invalid> - 2011-12-18 10:18 +0000
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 18:25 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-19 11:40 +0000
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:17 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 06:51 +0100
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-20 10:07 +0000
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:20 +0000
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> - 2011-12-21 00:43 +0000
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:16 +0100
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 12:22 +0000
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 17:20 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-22 10:36 +0000
                              Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:19 +0100
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-21 11:00 +0000
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 12:25 +0000
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> - 2011-12-21 13:23 +0000
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world  <cujimmy@nospam.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 19:50 +0000
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 22:13 +0000
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-26 10:50 +0000
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 11:58 +0000
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 19:11 +0100
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-21 22:18 +0000
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:38 +0100
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-23 12:31 +0000
                            APOLOGY to Steve Drain Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:52 +0100
                              Structures in BASIC Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-24 11:38 +0000
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 18:35 +0000
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:32 +0100
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 09:58 +0000
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Howlett <news-spamtrap@brianhowlett.me.uk> - 2011-12-23 10:12 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 10:31 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:55 +0100
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:56 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 16:17 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 07:24 +0100

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#2998

In article <524282c456alan_calder@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder
<alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote:

> I like the views of Mary Beard, Classics Professor at
> Cambridge and Classics editor of the TLS.

> "You do NOT learn Latin because it helps you learn other
> languages. Again that may be a knock on effect. But if
> you want to learn (say) Spanish, it's better to get on
> with it, not learn Latin first to make it easier.
> (Besides, I always feel that any subject that tries to
> justify itself by claiming that it helps you learn
> something else is on the way out.)

> You do NOT learn Latin because it hones your critical and
> logical thinking. True I rather like S.H. R. James's
> jingle that "Latin trains the brain" (just as I am
> touched by Stephen Dalzell's plaudit for the sheer
> uselessness of the language). But Latin is only one of
> many subjects that does this. If we gave our kids three
> lessons in formal logic each week, we'd probably soon
> notice a difference in their critical power."

> The rest of her article is available at
> http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2006/07/does_latin_trai.html

Alan, I have missed much of this thread having been out of
the country for a few days, but I have to say that I have
sometimes wished that I could have been as clear as you have
been when confronted with the pundits of the 'point about
Latin is that it teaches the
/structure/grammar/logic/origins (strike out where not
applicable) of English' club. 

I have bookmarked Mary Beard.

-- 
Russell
http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>

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#2985

In message <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk>
          M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

[snip]
> 
> The real point about Latin (though having Greek in addition could be
> a bit OTT - no emoticon!) is that it teaches the /structure/ of
> languages, including one's own English.
[snip]
> 
So what exactly is the advantage of teaching English speakers Latin
grammar over teaching English speakers English grammar?

Regards
Stan

-- 
An Iyonix in Buskerud.

http://mistymornings.net 

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#2997

In article <ac5ba64252.news@mistymornings.net>,
   <workstuff@mail.com> wrote:
> In message <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk>
>           M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> [snip]
> > 
> > The real point about Latin (though having Greek in addition could
> > be a bit OTT - no emoticon!) is that it teaches the /structure/
> > of languages, including one's own English.
> [snip]
> > 
> So what exactly is the advantage of teaching English speakers Latin
> grammar over teaching English speakers English grammar?

When I was at school I was taught English grammar; I was also taught
French and Latin and Greek grammar. Looking back, I recognise that the
insights I gained into the working of English grammar came chiefly
from the foreign languages, and the chief one in this for me was
Latin, because you actually had to puzzle out how word endings related
to each other and the order of words was different (unlike French or
English).

I sometimes wonder whether English grammar is still taught? 8-( 

Michael Harding
Rev. Preb. M.D. Harding   riscos@mdharding.org.uk

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#3013

In article <524302fd08riscos@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding
<riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> I sometimes wonder whether English grammar is still taught? 8-( 

What? You mean: such as not ending a statement with a question mark?  ;-)

-- 
Tim Hill of timil.com . . .
* supports TFT & shares in cheaper ethical telecoms http://tjrh.eu/phone
* has a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* accepts incoming email: substitute postmaster@ for tim@

... "Farewell ! thou art too dear for my possessing" Sonnet 87

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#3024

In article <52436a0bf6tim@invalid.org.uk>,
   Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <524302fd08riscos@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding
> <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > I sometimes wonder whether English grammar is still taught? 8-( 

> What? You mean: such as not ending a statement with a question mark?  ;-)

Doesn't everybody end sentences with a question mark, as borrowed from
'Strine? 8-)

Michael Harding
Rev. Preb. M.D. Harding   riscos@mdharding.org.uk

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#3031

In message <524302fd08riscos@mdharding.org.uk>
          M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <ac5ba64252.news@mistymornings.net>,
>    <workstuff@mail.com> wrote:
> > In message <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk>
> >           M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> > [snip]
> > > 
> > > The real point about Latin (though having Greek in addition could
> > > be a bit OTT - no emoticon!) is that it teaches the /structure/
> > > of languages, including one's own English.
> > [snip]
> > > 
> > So what exactly is the advantage of teaching English speakers Latin
> > grammar over teaching English speakers English grammar?
> 
> When I was at school I was taught English grammar; I was also taught
> French and Latin and Greek grammar. Looking back, I recognise that the
> insights I gained into the working of English grammar came chiefly
> from the foreign languages, and the chief one in this for me was
> Latin, because you actually had to puzzle out how word endings related
> to each other and the order of words was different (unlike French or
> English).

So in other words, no particularly good reasons then to choose Latin
over any other foreign modern language?
Regards
Stan
-- 
An Iyonix in Buskerud.

http://mistymornings.net 

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#3032

In message <9ad3b44352.news@mistymornings.net>
          workstuff@mail.com wrote:

> In message <524302fd08riscos@mdharding.org.uk>
>           M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

>> In article <ac5ba64252.news@mistymornings.net>,
>>    <workstuff@mail.com> wrote:
>>> In message <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk>
>>>           M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
>> 
>>> [snip]
>>>> 
>>>> The real point about Latin (though having Greek in addition could
>>>> be a bit OTT - no emoticon!) is that it teaches the /structure/
>>>> of languages, including one's own English.
>>> [snip]
>>>> 
>>> So what exactly is the advantage of teaching English speakers Latin
>>> grammar over teaching English speakers English grammar?
>> 
>> When I was at school I was taught English grammar; I was also taught
>> French and Latin and Greek grammar. Looking back, I recognise that the
>> insights I gained into the working of English grammar came chiefly
>> from the foreign languages, and the chief one in this for me was
>> Latin, because you actually had to puzzle out how word endings related
>> to each other and the order of words was different (unlike French or
>> English).

> So in other words, no particularly good reasons then to choose Latin
> over any other foreign modern language?
> Regards
> Stan

Not if you see education only as a means for social mobility.

-- Patric

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#3036

In article <9ad3b44352.news@mistymornings.net>,
   <workstuff@mail.com> wrote:
> In message <524302fd08riscos@mdharding.org.uk>
>           M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> > In article <ac5ba64252.news@mistymornings.net>,
> >    <workstuff@mail.com> wrote:
> > > In message <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk>
> > >           M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
> > > > The real point about Latin (though having Greek in addition
> > > > could be a bit OTT - no emoticon!) is that it teaches the
> > > > /structure/ of languages, including one's own English.
> > > [snip]
> > > > 
> > > So what exactly is the advantage of teaching English speakers
> > > Latin grammar over teaching English speakers English grammar?
> > 
> > When I was at school I was taught English grammar; I was also
> > taught French and Latin and Greek grammar. Looking back, I
> > recognise that the insights I gained into the working of English
> > grammar came chiefly from the foreign languages, and the chief
> > one in this for me was Latin, because you actually had to puzzle
> > out how word endings related to each other and the order of words
> > was different (unlike French or English).

> So in other words, no particularly good reasons then to choose
> Latin over any other foreign modern language?

<sigh> Back to the beginning, then! 

I've been objecting to people's denigrating a language they haven't
encountered but which I've found valuable as a stepping-stone to other
languages. 

Latin is an "inflected" language, as to some extent is German and to
a similar or greater extent are ancient Greek & Russian (but with the
last 2 you need a new alphabet as well); and I reckon that
encountering such an inflected form of language gives an insight into
how other languages - including English - are constructed
grammatically and thus makes them easier to use and learn.

Latin differs from "other modern languages" - French, Italian, Spanish
[which I've always maintained is really Italian spoken with a
Glaswegian accent 8-) ], Portuguese - which are not inflected. They're
easy to learn in their own right, and that's OK by me; but they don't
have that extra analytical edge that Latin brings. 

As for /any/ other modern language, you could start straight in with
the arabic or oriental ones of course, but that's the hard way.

Druck was advocating learning to program using a language which was
straightforward but also trained you not to fall into bad programming
habits. That, I think, is an analogy of where Latin stands. It worked
for me.

Michael Harding
Rev. Preb. M.D. Harding   riscos@mdharding.org.uk

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#3037

In message <524407b886riscos@mdharding.org.uk>
          M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <9ad3b44352.news@mistymornings.net>,
>    <workstuff@mail.com> wrote:
> > In message <524302fd08riscos@mdharding.org.uk>
> >           M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > In article <ac5ba64252.news@mistymornings.net>,
> > >    <workstuff@mail.com> wrote:
> > > > In message <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk>
> > > >           M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
> > > > > The real point about Latin (though having Greek in addition
> > > > > could be a bit OTT - no emoticon!) is that it teaches the
> > > > > /structure/ of languages, including one's own English.
> > > > [snip]
> > > > > 
> > > > So what exactly is the advantage of teaching English speakers
> > > > Latin grammar over teaching English speakers English grammar?
> > > 
> > > When I was at school I was taught English grammar; I was also
> > > taught French and Latin and Greek grammar. Looking back, I
> > > recognise that the insights I gained into the working of English
> > > grammar came chiefly from the foreign languages, and the chief
> > > one in this for me was Latin, because you actually had to puzzle
> > > out how word endings related to each other and the order of words
> > > was different (unlike French or English).
> 
> > So in other words, no particularly good reasons then to choose
> > Latin over any other foreign modern language?
> 
> <sigh> Back to the beginning, then! 
> 
> I've been objecting to people's denigrating a language they haven't
> encountered but which I've found valuable as a stepping-stone to other
> languages. 
>
It is clear that you experienced learning Latin as a great help in your
quest to master grammar. I am not seeking to deny that, just very
curious as to why the word Latin in the context of languages raises such
passion.

I still remain to be convinced as to why learning a dead language and a
living language at the same time is more beneficial than just learning
the living language to a greater level of competence.

None of the languages I have learned in my life, English, Dutch,
German, Norwegian and Spanish have identical grammar structures. There
are significant differences in how these languages construct meaningful
sentences.

Learning Latin would merely have added another layer of complexity to my
understanding and my ability to communicate in any of the other
languages.

Regards
Stan
-- 
An Iyonix in Buskerud.

http://mistymornings.net 

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#3039

In article <524407b886riscos@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding
<riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:


> > > > So what exactly is the advantage of teaching
> > > > English speakers Latin grammar over teaching
> > > > English speakers English grammar?

> > > When I was at school I was taught English grammar; I
> > > was also taught French and Latin and Greek grammar.
> > > Looking back, I recognise that the insights I gained
> > > into the working of English grammar came chiefly from
> > > the foreign languages, and the chief one in this for
> > > me was Latin, because you actually had to puzzle out
> > > how word endings related to each other and the order
> > > of words was different (unlike French or English).

> > So in other words, no particularly good reasons then to
> > choose Latin over any other foreign modern language?

> <sigh> Back to the beginning, then! 

> I've been objecting to people's denigrating a language
> they haven't encountered but which I've found valuable as
> a stepping-stone to other languages. 

I certainly objected, at the time, to having to waste 200
minutes per week for four school years on Latin.

I find it incredible that this deceased language was given
the same weighting in teaching time as English, Maths and
French, and so vastly more time than Science, History,
Geography, Art, Divinity or Wood/Metalwork.

Science time double from 80 minutes per week to 160 minutes
per week in the third and fourth of those years, Geography,
Art and Wood/Metalwork were abandoned to allow that extra
Science time, and to allow me to learn German. But the
wretched Latin was sacrosanct.

When I started to learn to program, I certainly felt that my
brain was working in the same sort of way as it did when
thinking about foreign langauages, but I am absolutely
certain that Latin, 99.5% of which I totally forgot within a
few months of summer 1963, had nothing to do with it.

-- 
Russell
http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>

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#3040

Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> In article <524407b886riscos@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding
> <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> > > > > So what exactly is the advantage of teaching English speakers
> > > > > Latin grammar over teaching English speakers English grammar?
> 
<SNIP>
> 
> I certainly objected, at the time, to having to waste 200 minutes per week
> for four school years on Latin.
>
 
During my time at the "gymnasium" (beta-direction) we had a 6 years course
of Latin (3-4h/wk), 5 years of ancient Greek (3h/wk), English, German,
French and Dutch. Besides these and the mandatory Math, Science, History and
Geography I did a 2 year voluntary course Russian (2h/wk). Now we Dutch have
to deal with a vast amount of foreign countries: in those days ('62-'68) it
was thought best to be able to confer with "neighbour parties" in their own
language.

> I find it incredible that this deceased language was given the same
> weighting in teaching time as English, Maths and French, and so vastly
> more time than Science, History, Geography, Art, Divinity or
> Wood/Metalwork.
> 
> Science time double from 80 minutes per week to 160 minutes per week in
> the third and fourth of those years, Geography, Art and Wood/Metalwork
> were abandoned to allow that extra Science time, and to allow me to learn
> German. But the wretched Latin was sacrosanct.
> 
> When I started to learn to program, I certainly felt that my brain was
> working in the same sort of way as it did when thinking about foreign
> langauages, but I am absolutely certain that Latin, 99.5% of which I
> totally forgot within a few months of summer 1963, had nothing to do with
> it.

Odd thing is I thought I had forgotten all of the Latin and Greek I had ever
learned: my kids went to the "gymnasium" in the 90's and I was still able to
provide help for them in reading and translating/interpreting of the
"classics" 


-- 
kind regards
nervus

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#3042

In article <gemini.lwgsrx0000ded00n8.nervus@spam.nl>,
   nervus <nervus@spam.nl> wrote:
> Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> > In article <524407b886riscos@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding
> > <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > > > > So what exactly is the advantage of teaching English
> > > > > > speakers Latin grammar over teaching English speakers
> > > > > > English grammar?
> > 
> <SNIP>
> > 
> > I certainly objected, at the time, to having to waste 200 minutes
> > per week for four school years on Latin.
> >
>  
> During my time at the "gymnasium" (beta-direction) we had a 6 years
> course of Latin (3-4h/wk), 5 years of ancient Greek (3h/wk),
> English, German, French and Dutch. Besides these and the mandatory
> Math, Science, History and Geography I did a 2 year voluntary
> course Russian (2h/wk). Now we Dutch have to deal with a vast
> amount of foreign countries: in those days ('62-'68) it was thought
> best to be able to confer with "neighbour parties" in their own
> language.

Phew! Dare I ask . . whether you found that the Latin (or Greek)
helped with the modern languages?

Michael Harding
Rev. Preb. M.D. Harding   riscos@mdharding.org.uk

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#3043

M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <gemini.lwgsrx0000ded00n8.nervus@spam.nl>,
>    nervus <nervus@spam.nl> wrote:
> > Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > > In article <524407b886riscos@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding
> > > <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > > > So what exactly is the advantage of teaching English speakers
> > > > > > > Latin grammar over teaching English speakers English grammar?
> > > 
> > <SNIP>
> > > 
> > > I certainly objected, at the time, to having to waste 200 minutes per
> > > week for four school years on Latin.
> > >
> >  
> > During my time at the "gymnasium" (beta-direction) we had a 6 years
> > course of Latin (3-4h/wk), 5 years of ancient Greek (3h/wk), English,
> > German, French and Dutch. Besides these and the mandatory Math, Science,
> > History and Geography I did a 2 year voluntary course Russian (2h/wk).
> > Now we Dutch have to deal with a vast amount of foreign countries: in
> > those days ('62-'68) it was thought best to be able to confer with
> > "neighbour parties" in their own language.
> 
> Phew! Dare I ask . . whether you found that the Latin (or Greek) helped
> with the modern languages?

In a way: thanks to Latin I can understand Italian. The ancient Greek just
made me aware of nuances (specifically: the different aspects of the
aoristus) in other languages (French comes to mind).
Odd thing is: I became an MD (neurologist) and had to refer patients on
regular basis to a neurosurgeon (a Czech who fled the communist regime); his
Dutch was horrible, and so was his German and English; he reported partially
in Latin! 


-- 
kind regards
nervus

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#3045

In article <gemini.lwgx6l000013s0fxc.nervus@spam.nl>,
   nervus <nervus@spam.nl> wrote:
> M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> > In article <gemini.lwgsrx0000ded00n8.nervus@spam.nl>,
> >    nervus <nervus@spam.nl> wrote:
> > > Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> > > <SNIP>
> > > > 
> > > > I certainly objected, at the time, to having to waste 200
> > > > minutes per week for four school years on Latin.
> > > >
> > >  
> > > During my time at the "gymnasium" (beta-direction) we had a 6
> > > years course of Latin (3-4h/wk), 5 years of ancient Greek
> > > (3h/wk), English, German, French and Dutch. Besides these and
> > > the mandatory Math, Science, History and Geography I did a 2
> > > year voluntary course Russian (2h/wk). Now we Dutch have to
> > > deal with a vast amount of foreign countries: in those days
> > > ('62-'68) it was thought best to be able to confer with
> > > "neighbour parties" in their own language.
> > 
> > Phew! Dare I ask . . whether you found that the Latin (or Greek)
> > helped with the modern languages?

> In a way: thanks to Latin I can understand Italian. The ancient
> Greek just made me aware of nuances (specifically: the different
> aspects of the aoristus) in other languages (French comes to mind).
> Odd thing is: I became an MD (neurologist)  [ . . . ]

So that's what's behind your nom de plume, "nervus"? When on holiday
and wanting to get away from it all I used to tell people I was an
anaesthetist. Actually I was a mass anaesthetist.  [Do I need an
emoticon?]

Michael Harding
Rev. Preb. M.D. Harding   riscos@mdharding.org.uk

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#3046

M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <gemini.lwgx6l000013s0fxc.nervus@spam.nl>,
>    nervus <nervus@spam.nl> wrote:
> > M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > In article <gemini.lwgsrx0000ded00n8.nervus@spam.nl>,
> > >    nervus <nervus@spam.nl> wrote:
> > > > Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > > > <SNIP>
> > > > > 
> > > > > I certainly objected, at the time, to having to waste 200 minutes
> > > > > per week for four school years on Latin.
> > > > >
> > > >  
> > > > During my time at the "gymnasium" (beta-direction) we had a 6 years
> > > > course of Latin (3-4h/wk), 5 years of ancient Greek (3h/wk),
> > > > English, German, French and Dutch. Besides these and the mandatory
> > > > Math, Science, History and Geography I did a 2 year voluntary course
> > > > Russian (2h/wk). Now we Dutch have to deal with a vast amount of
> > > > foreign countries: in those days ('62-'68) it was thought best to be
> > > > able to confer with "neighbour parties" in their own language.
> > > 
> > > Phew! Dare I ask . . whether you found that the Latin (or Greek)
> > > helped with the modern languages?
> 
> > In a way: thanks to Latin I can understand Italian. The ancient Greek
> > just made me aware of nuances (specifically: the different aspects of
> > the aoristus) in other languages (French comes to mind). Odd thing is: I
> > became an MD (neurologist)  [ . . . ]
> 
> So that's what's behind your nom de plume, "nervus"? When on holiday and
> wanting to get away from it all I used to tell people I was an
> anaesthetist. Actually I was a mass anaesthetist.  [Do I need an
> emoticon?]

Nope  :)  All religion is opium for the people  ;)


-- 
kind regards
nervus

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#3055

In a mad moment - M Harding  mumbled :
[snip]

> Phew! Dare I ask . . whether you found that the Latin (or Greek)
> helped with the modern languages?

Just watched the final edition of "Mongrels" - BBC3 last night.

Clip show - included a short excerpt of the Latin Version

-- 
|)    [
|)ryn [vans            mail to - BrynEvans@bryork.freeuk.com

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#3059

In message <52440fc98asee.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>
          Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> 
wrote:



> I find it incredible that this deceased language was given
> the same weighting in teaching time as English, Maths and
> French, and so vastly more time than Science, History,
> Geography, Art, Divinity or Wood/Metalwork.

Sixty years ago when I was at my very traditional Public School, all 
boys and all boarding of course, Latin was compulsory of course. You 
could choose Greek or science, and although I was a scholar I chose 
science: the Headmaster never forgave me.

-- 
Barry Gray
http://www.barrygray.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
A child is a fire to be lit not a vessel to be filled 

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#3062

On 21/12/2011 00:12, Barry Gray wrote:

> could choose Greek or science, and although I was a scholar I chose
> science: the Headmaster never forgave me.

Forget what he thought - did science help *you*?


Best wishes,

Rick.

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#3066

In message <4ef185cc$0$2525$ba4acef3@reader.news.orange.fr>
          Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 21/12/2011 00:12, Barry Gray wrote:

>> could choose Greek or science, and although I was a scholar I chose
>> science: the Headmaster never forgave me.

> Forget what he thought - did science help *you*?


> Best wishes,

> Rick.

Well, I went on to design aeroplanes, manage the IT department for a 
pharmaceutical company, and teach science, so the simple answer is 
probably yes.

On the other hand, my cousin's son studied Greek at a maintained ILEA 
(Inner London Education Authority) (now abolished) Grammar (now 
abolished (except in Kent)) School and went on to get Greats (a first 
class honours degree in classics (Latin and Greek) at Balliol College 
Oxford (generally reckoned to be the most prestigious degree in the 
world.)). (Forgive the nested parentheses but we cannot all be 
scholars. I would put some sort of funny thingy here if I could 
remember what to put and how to put it and what to call it.) Then when 
he came down from Oxford he went into the only job he had ever wanted 
to do since he was five, and more than thirty years later he is still 
in the same job: driving a train.

Did Greek help him? I think this opens up a totally new thread on the 
true purpose of education, but can we put it on hold until after 
Christmas? (Probably not, but do not expect any contributions from me 
until then.)

Happy Christmas

Barry




-- 
Barry Gray
http://www.barrygray.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
A child is a fire to be lit not a vessel to be filled 

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#3074

On 21/12/2011 10:33, Barry Gray wrote:

> he came down from Oxford he went into the only job he had ever wanted
> to do since he was five, and more than thirty years later he is still
> in the same job: driving a train.

Awesome! Nothing like following a dream. :-)


> I think this opens up a totally new thread on the true purpose of education,

To beat you into submission and "teach" you to stop asking questions and 
just accept what you are told, regardless of whether or not it is 
correct, while being reminded that you are stupid and there are others 
who (for whatever reason) are better, but you'll always be inferior due 
to some invented circumstance beyond your control.

[note: no smiley - I believe in "The Mentor's Last Words"]



For what it is worth, I should point out a little anecdote. My first 
educational experience was in an American Kindergarten and possibly an 
infant school, I don't remember much besides a bloody huge (to a 
five-year-old) yellow bus. It was in the '70s so there was a lot of 
inter-racial stuff going on, not that *I* noticed.
I came back to the UK and went through the education system there, and 
spent a lot of time being "the only kid who still wrote in pencil" due 
to large differences between US/UK ideas of when and how to teach 
writing. One day we made those little folded paper things that you can 
write messages in, then fold/unfold to a song to pick an option. Well, 
mine was not written in (obvious reasons) so I decided to call mine 
"Pacie" because I could imagine if I held it sideways, it would look 
like Pac-Man - munch! munch! munch! "Pacie" being said "pack-ee".
You can probably guess what happened next. Ballistic teacher, visits to 
the headmaster, threats of suspension, all the while with me having no 
idea what the hell anybody was talking about. Eventually somebody 
twigged that I was really not following (instead of just being a brat) 
and sat me down and lectured me on how it is a Bad Thing to be A Racist. 
Which while that is a reasonable lesson, an unfortunate side effect is 
that it also pointed out that black [*] kids are supposed to be inferior 
to white kids, and "Indian"[**] kids (Indians to me were Native 
Americans, but I digress...) lower than that.
*That* is education for you.
And, I might add, a crowning example of "the road to hell is paved with 
good intentions".


* - should this be capitalised?
** - incidental geography fail - Pakistan != India


FWIW - I *still* judge people on what they say/do rather than what they 
look like [cute Japanese girls excepted, but that's biological ;-)]. And 
I pretty much never paid much attention to teachers when they said 
anything that didn't directly relate to their chosen subject.


Best wishes,

Rick.

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