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Groups > comp.std.c > #6301 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2021-09-21 13:09 +0200 |
| Last post | 2021-10-09 04:27 -0700 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 21 — 9 participants |
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Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-21 13:09 +0200
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Ike Naar <ike@faeroes.freeshell.org> - 2021-09-21 11:33 +0000
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2021-09-21 12:47 +0100
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-09-21 08:29 -0400
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-09-22 01:17 +0000
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 19:05 -0700
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-09-22 00:02 -0400
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 21:12 -0700
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-09-22 09:42 -0400
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-09-22 07:08 -0400
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-09-22 09:42 -0400
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-09-23 12:18 -0400
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-09-23 11:10 +0000
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-09-23 12:22 -0400
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-09-23 11:08 +0000
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-09-21 11:01 -0700
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2021-09-21 20:12 +0200
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-09-22 01:13 +0000
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-09-22 14:25 +0200
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> - 2021-09-23 11:17 +0000
Re: Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? Tim Rentsch <txr@shamko.com> - 2021-10-09 04:27 -0700
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| From | Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-21 13:09 +0200 |
| Subject | Why is shifting too far undefined behvaior? |
| Message-ID | <siceh0$1lm$1@solani.org> |
Looking at the C23 draft N2596, section J.2 (but this AFAIK has been the same forever), we see that there is undefined behavior, when "An expression is shifted by a negative number or by an amount greater than or equal to the width of the promoted expression (6.5.7)." or "An expression having signed promoted type is left-shifted and either the value of the expression is negative or the result of shifting would not be representable in the promoted type (6.5.7)." Does anyone know why this was made undefined (as opposed to yielding an unspecified value)? The C99 rationale doesn't mention anything. The only idea that comes to my mind is that it would be to allow implementations to trap at runtime when shifting too far, which might help with debugging.
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| From | Ike Naar <ike@faeroes.freeshell.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-21 11:33 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnskjgmp.3ce.ike@faeroes.freeshell.org> |
| In reply to | #6301 |
On 2021-09-21, Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> wrote: > Looking at the C23 draft N2596, section J.2 (but this AFAIK has been the > same forever), we see that there is undefined behavior, when "An > expression is shifted by a negative number or by an amount greater than > or equal to the width of the promoted expression (6.5.7)." or "An > expression having signed promoted type is left-shifted and either the > value of the expression is negative or the result of shifting would not > be representable in the promoted type (6.5.7)." > > Does anyone know why this was made undefined (as opposed to yielding an > unspecified value)? The C99 rationale doesn't mention anything. > > The only idea that comes to my mind is that it would be to allow > implementations to trap at runtime when shifting too far, which might > help with debugging. Another thing that comes to mind is that on a machine with N-bit wordsize, the machine instruction for shifting might only use log2(N) bits to specify the number of places to shift. Shifting N places or more would not be possible on such hardware (at least, not with a single shift instruction).
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| From | Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-21 12:47 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <877dfab16s.fsf@LkoBDZeT.terraraq.uk> |
| In reply to | #6302 |
Ike Naar <ike@faeroes.freeshell.org> writes: > On 2021-09-21, Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> wrote: >> Looking at the C23 draft N2596, section J.2 (but this AFAIK has been the >> same forever), we see that there is undefined behavior, when "An >> expression is shifted by a negative number or by an amount greater than >> or equal to the width of the promoted expression (6.5.7)." or "An >> expression having signed promoted type is left-shifted and either the >> value of the expression is negative or the result of shifting would not >> be representable in the promoted type (6.5.7)." >> >> Does anyone know why this was made undefined (as opposed to yielding an >> unspecified value)? The C99 rationale doesn't mention anything. >> >> The only idea that comes to my mind is that it would be to allow >> implementations to trap at runtime when shifting too far, which might >> help with debugging. > > Another thing that comes to mind is that on a machine with N-bit > wordsize, the machine instruction for shifting might only use log2(N) bits > to specify the number of places to shift. True for x86, for example. > Shifting N places or more would not be possible on such hardware > (at least, not with a single shift instruction). That can explain why the standard doesn’t tie the behavior down exactly, it doesn’t explain why it leaves it as UB rather than matching Philipp’s suggestion, or making it implementation-defined behavior (so an x86 implementation would define it as equivalent to shifting mod word size, for instance). -- https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
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| From | Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-21 08:29 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <sek2J.55967$jm6.46258@fx07.iad> |
| In reply to | #6301 |
On 9/21/21 7:09 AM, Philipp Klaus Krause wrote: > Looking at the C23 draft N2596, section J.2 (but this AFAIK has been the > same forever), we see that there is undefined behavior, when "An > expression is shifted by a negative number or by an amount greater than > or equal to the width of the promoted expression (6.5.7)." or "An > expression having signed promoted type is left-shifted and either the > value of the expression is negative or the result of shifting would not > be representable in the promoted type (6.5.7)." > > Does anyone know why this was made undefined (as opposed to yielding an > unspecified value)? The C99 rationale doesn't mention anything. > > The only idea that comes to my mind is that it would be to allow > implementations to trap at runtime when shifting too far, which might > help with debugging. > My impression is that this behavior goes back to early versions of the standardization process, and 'Unspecified Value' wasn't a term used then, but that has evolved. There also may have been hardware that would trap in this case. The wording probably could be changed to something like an unspecified value or a trap, but it may be the case that some implementation can show that there is some significant optimization based on this undefined behavior (maybe based on the knowledge that the shift value now effectively has a limited range or no behavior is defined, so can be igrored.)
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| From | Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-22 01:17 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20210922011447$3630@zira.vinc17.org> |
| In reply to | #6304 |
In article <sek2J.55967$jm6.46258@fx07.iad>, Richard Damon <Richard@damon-family.org> wrote: > The wording probably could be changed to something like an unspecified > value or a trap, [...] Note: an unspecified value or a trap = an indeterminate value -- Vincent Lefèvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/> 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/> Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)
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| From | Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-21 19:05 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87zgs5mkk6.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> |
| In reply to | #6308 |
Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> writes:
> In article <sek2J.55967$jm6.46258@fx07.iad>,
> Richard Damon <Richard@damon-family.org> wrote:
>
>> The wording probably could be changed to something like an unspecified
>> value or a trap,
> [...]
>
> Note: an unspecified value or a trap = an indeterminate value
An indeterminate value is either an unspecified value or a trap
*representation". Richard didn't say "trap representation" (I won't
attempt to guess whether that's what he meant.)
A "trap" (not a term used by the standard) usually means that the
program terminates in some unfriendly way -- which might as well be
undefined behavior.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */
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| From | James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-22 00:02 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <sie9tb$5jg$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6309 |
On 9/21/21 10:05 PM, Keith Thompson wrote: > Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> writes: >> In article <sek2J.55967$jm6.46258@fx07.iad>, >> Richard Damon <Richard@damon-family.org> wrote: >> >>> The wording probably could be changed to something like an unspecified >>> value or a trap, >> [...] >> >> Note: an unspecified value or a trap = an indeterminate value > > An indeterminate value is either an unspecified value or a trap > *representation". Richard didn't say "trap representation" (I won't > attempt to guess whether that's what he meant.) > > A "trap" (not a term used by the standard) usually means that the > program terminates in some unfriendly way -- which might as well be > undefined behavior. True. But "perform a trap" is a term defined by the standard as meaning "interrupt execution of the program such that no further operations are performed". Per footnote 2, "fetching a trap representation might perform a trap, but is not required to do so". While I agree that "trap representation" is most likely what he meant, "perform a trap" is an alternative possibility.
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| From | Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-21 21:12 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87v92tmep4.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> |
| In reply to | #6310 |
James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> writes:
> On 9/21/21 10:05 PM, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> writes:
>>> In article <sek2J.55967$jm6.46258@fx07.iad>,
>>> Richard Damon <Richard@damon-family.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The wording probably could be changed to something like an unspecified
>>>> value or a trap,
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Note: an unspecified value or a trap = an indeterminate value
>>
>> An indeterminate value is either an unspecified value or a trap
>> *representation". Richard didn't say "trap representation" (I won't
>> attempt to guess whether that's what he meant.)
>>
>> A "trap" (not a term used by the standard) usually means that the
>> program terminates in some unfriendly way -- which might as well be
>> undefined behavior.
>
> True. But "perform a trap" is a term defined by the standard as meaning
> "interrupt execution of the program such that no further operations are
> performed". Per footnote 2, "fetching a trap representation might
> perform a trap, but is not required to do so".
You're right. That definition is N1570 3.19.4.
> While I agree that "trap representation" is most likely what he meant,
> "perform a trap" is an alternative possibility.
(BTW, you sent your reply to me by email as well as posting it here.)
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */
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| From | James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-22 09:42 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <sifbr8$rrk$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6311 |
On 9/22/21 12:12 AM, Keith Thompson wrote: ... > (BTW, you sent your reply to me by email as well as posting it here.) Sorry - I'm still failing to adapt to the change in the meaning of Thunderbird's "Reply" button. For those who have no idea what I'm talking about - for a decade or more, I've used Mozilla Thunderbird to post follow-up messages using the "Reply" button. Several months ago they added a "Follow-Up" button to do that, and changed the "Reply" button to send a message exclusively to the e-mail of the person who posted the message. Even though the new button naming makes more sense and is more consistent with the way e-mails are handled, breaking a habit of two decades has proven very difficult for me.
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| From | Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-22 07:08 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <09E2J.41394$ol1.7632@fx42.iad> |
| In reply to | #6310 |
On 9/22/21 12:02 AM, James Kuyper wrote: > On 9/21/21 10:05 PM, Keith Thompson wrote: >> Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> writes: >>> In article <sek2J.55967$jm6.46258@fx07.iad>, >>> Richard Damon <Richard@damon-family.org> wrote: >>> >>>> The wording probably could be changed to something like an unspecified >>>> value or a trap, >>> [...] >>> >>> Note: an unspecified value or a trap = an indeterminate value >> >> An indeterminate value is either an unspecified value or a trap >> *representation". Richard didn't say "trap representation" (I won't >> attempt to guess whether that's what he meant.) >> >> A "trap" (not a term used by the standard) usually means that the >> program terminates in some unfriendly way -- which might as well be >> undefined behavior. > > True. But "perform a trap" is a term defined by the standard as meaning > "interrupt execution of the program such that no further operations are > performed". Per footnote 2, "fetching a trap representation might > perform a trap, but is not required to do so". > While I agree that "trap representation" is most likely what he meant, > "perform a trap" is an alternative possibility. > Yes, that was the 'trap' I was referring to. The Standard basically uses perform a trap to mean a hardware based exception that the software may or might not be able to intercept as a 'signal'.
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| From | James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-22 09:42 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <sifbsj$rrk$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6312 |
On 9/22/21 7:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 9/22/21 12:02 AM, James Kuyper wrote: ... >> True. But "perform a trap" is a term defined by the standard as meaning >> "interrupt execution of the program such that no further operations are >> performed". Per footnote 2, "fetching a trap representation might >> perform a trap, but is not required to do so". >> While I agree that "trap representation" is most likely what he meant, >> "perform a trap" is an alternative possibility. >> > > Yes, that was the 'trap' I was referring to. The Standard basically uses > perform a trap to mean a hardware based exception that the software may > or might not be able to intercept as a 'signal'. I don't think that raising a signal qualifies. The standard specifies that "no further operations are performed". It doesn't add "unless the signal is intercepted". I don't think that anything which allows handlers registered using atexit(), abort_handler_s(), ignore_handler_s(), or set_constraint_handler_s() to be executed qualifies as performing a trap, either, since those would also allow further operations to be performed.
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| From | James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-23 12:18 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <sii9cf$1bd$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6315 |
On 9/22/21 9:42 AM, James Kuyper wrote: > On 9/22/21 7:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote: >> On 9/22/21 12:02 AM, James Kuyper wrote: > ... >>> True. But "perform a trap" is a term defined by the standard as meaning >>> "interrupt execution of the program such that no further operations are >>> performed". Per footnote 2, "fetching a trap representation might >>> perform a trap, but is not required to do so". >>> While I agree that "trap representation" is most likely what he meant, >>> "perform a trap" is an alternative possibility. >>> >> >> Yes, that was the 'trap' I was referring to. The Standard basically uses >> perform a trap to mean a hardware based exception that the software may >> or might not be able to intercept as a 'signal'. > > I don't think that raising a signal qualifies. The standard specifies > that "no further operations are performed". It doesn't add "unless the > signal is intercepted". I don't think that anything which allows > handlers registered using atexit(), abort_handler_s(), > ignore_handler_s(), or set_constraint_handler_s() to be executed > qualifies as performing a trap, either, since those would also allow > further operations to be performed. Correction - since the definition of "perform a trap" says explicitly that "Implementations that support Annex L are permitted to invoke a runtime-constraint handler when they perform a trap.", I should not have included set_constraint_handler_s() in that list.
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| From | Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-23 11:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20210923110856$6412@zira.vinc17.org> |
| In reply to | #6310 |
In article <sie9tb$5jg$1@dont-email.me>, James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote: > True. But "perform a trap" is a term defined by the standard as meaning > "interrupt execution of the program such that no further operations are > performed". Per footnote 2, "fetching a trap representation might > perform a trap, but is not required to do so". > While I agree that "trap representation" is most likely what he meant, > "perform a trap" is an alternative possibility. I wonder why it is defined, because it does not seem to be used at all in the standard. -- Vincent Lefèvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/> 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/> Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)
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| From | James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-23 12:22 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <sii9l1$39j$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6317 |
On 9/23/21 7:10 AM, Vincent Lefevre wrote: > In article <sie9tb$5jg$1@dont-email.me>, > James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote: > >> True. But "perform a trap" is a term defined by the standard as meaning >> "interrupt execution of the program such that no further operations are >> performed". Per footnote 2, "fetching a trap representation might >> perform a trap, but is not required to do so". >> While I agree that "trap representation" is most likely what he meant, >> "perform a trap" is an alternative possibility. > > I wonder why it is defined, because it does not seem to be used at all > in the standard. Me too. It is used in notes in the descriptions of "bounded undefined behavior" (L2.2) and "critical undefined behavior" (L2.3). However, since performing a trap is clearly one of the things permitted for undefined behavior, it's not clear that mentioning it in those contexts makes any difference, particularly since notes are non-normative.
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| From | Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-23 11:08 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20210923110251$7a8c@zira.vinc17.org> |
| In reply to | #6309 |
In article <87zgs5mkk6.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com>, Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote: > Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> writes: > > In article <sek2J.55967$jm6.46258@fx07.iad>, > > Richard Damon <Richard@damon-family.org> wrote: > > > >> The wording probably could be changed to something like an unspecified > >> value or a trap, > > [...] > > > > Note: an unspecified value or a trap = an indeterminate value > An indeterminate value is either an unspecified value or a trap > *representation". Richard didn't say "trap representation" (I won't > attempt to guess whether that's what he meant.) > A "trap" (not a term used by the standard) usually means that the > program terminates in some unfriendly way -- which might as well be > undefined behavior. Yes, but a "trap" (where the word appears without "representation" in the standard) is never used to mean a value, contrary to "trap representation". Since this was applied to "indeterminate value", I interpreted "trap" as "trap representation". -- Vincent Lefèvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/> 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/> Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)
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| From | Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-21 11:01 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <87tuidolj1.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> |
| In reply to | #6301 |
Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> writes:
> Looking at the C23 draft N2596, section J.2 (but this AFAIK has been the
> same forever), we see that there is undefined behavior, when "An
> expression is shifted by a negative number or by an amount greater than
> or equal to the width of the promoted expression (6.5.7)." or "An
> expression having signed promoted type is left-shifted and either the
> value of the expression is negative or the result of shifting would not
> be representable in the promoted type (6.5.7)."
>
> Does anyone know why this was made undefined (as opposed to yielding an
> unspecified value)? The C99 rationale doesn't mention anything.
>
> The only idea that comes to my mind is that it would be to allow
> implementations to trap at runtime when shifting too far, which might
> help with debugging.
Dennis Ritchie wrote about this in comp.arch in 2002, but didn't
specifically explain why it's undefined behavior rather than an
unspecified value.
https://yarchive.net/comp/c_shifts.html
From: Dennis Ritchie <dmr@bell-labs.com>
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: shift instructions on different processors
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:47:05 +0000
Message-ID: <3C689E49.65EB9FEB@bell-labs.com>
glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
>
> There have been questions on both C and Java newsgroups about
> the effect of shift operations when the shift value equals or
> exceeds the number of bits available to be shifted.
>
> I know that the reason for such a restriction is that many architectures
> use only some bits of the shift amount.
>
> x86 uses the low 5 bits for 32 bit shifts, and low 6 bits for 64 bits.
>
> IBM S/360, S/370, S/390 etc., use the low 6 bits for 32 and 64 bits.
...
Meissner followed up with various other architectures as well.
I looked at my Interdata 8/32 manual (1975), which describes
a 32-bit machine, and was amused to find, under the
"Shift Left Logical" instruction,
"... the shift count is specified by the least significant
five bits of the second operand."
I added a contemporaneous hand-written notation "!!" to this.
On the next page, under "Shift Right Logical," it similarly
says, "the least significant five bits of the second operand."
Here my notation is an underlining, accompanied by "Shit!!"
And that, children, is why the C and Java rules are as they are.
The C manual in 6th Edition Unix didn't have the value restriction.
K&R I did.
Dennis
Perhaps it was thought that shifting too far is analagous to integer
overflow, which has undefined behavior for signed types. And Ritchie
may not have wanted to assume that no CPUs trap on a large shift.
K&R1 says "The result is undefined", not that it has undefined behavior
(I don't think K&R1 had the concept of undefined behavior).
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */
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| From | Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-21 20:12 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <sid79l$d35$1@solani.org> |
| In reply to | #6305 |
Am 21.09.21 um 20:01 schrieb Keith Thompson: > > I looked at my Interdata 8/32 manual (1975), which describes > a 32-bit machine, and was amused to find, under the > "Shift Left Logical" instruction, > > "... the shift count is specified by the least significant > five bits of the second operand." The modern Z80N (a Z80 variant used in the ZX Spectrum Next) has a "shift left arithmetic" that shifts 16-bit register de left by the number specified in the lower 5 bits of 8-bit register b. So in SDCC when targeting the Z80N, left-shifting a 16-bit value could, depending on which register the shifted value gets allocated to, shift either by the lower 5 bits of the right operand (is the Z80N instruction is used) or the lower 8 bits of the right operand (if normal code for Z80 left shift is generated) or by the actual right operand (if the value of the right operand can be determined at compile time).
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| From | Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-22 01:13 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20210922010837$1362@zira.vinc17.org> |
| In reply to | #6301 |
In article <siceh0$1lm$1@solani.org>, Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> wrote: > Does anyone know why this was made undefined (as opposed to yielding an > unspecified value)? The C99 rationale doesn't mention anything. > The only idea that comes to my mind is that it would be to allow > implementations to trap at runtime when shifting too far, which might > help with debugging. Yes, and perhaps to allow optimization that could be invalidated with an unspecified value (e.g. deduce the range of some values). -- Vincent Lefèvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/> 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/> Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)
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| From | David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-22 14:25 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <sif7c9$t46$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #6301 |
On 21/09/2021 13:09, Philipp Klaus Krause wrote: > Looking at the C23 draft N2596, section J.2 (but this AFAIK has been the > same forever), we see that there is undefined behavior, when "An > expression is shifted by a negative number or by an amount greater than > or equal to the width of the promoted expression (6.5.7)." or "An > expression having signed promoted type is left-shifted and either the > value of the expression is negative or the result of shifting would not > be representable in the promoted type (6.5.7)." > > Does anyone know why this was made undefined (as opposed to yielding an > unspecified value)? The C99 rationale doesn't mention anything. > > The only idea that comes to my mind is that it would be to allow > implementations to trap at runtime when shifting too far, which might > help with debugging. > One possibility for some of the cases is that a target could implement "x <<= y" in hardware or software as : while (y--) x <<= 1; (Other shift operations would be similar.) For at least some of the cases that are undefined behaviour in the spec, if these were changed to implementation-defined or unspecified results then you'd need extra checks to avoid almost-infinite loops. For the signed integers, the expectation for arithmetic operations is that the results will always be mathematically correct for integer results. If you can't get the correct result, it is undefined behaviour. This allows the compiler a great deal of freedom and information that can be used for analysis and optimisation - such as knowing that adding two positive numbers gives a positive result. However, those are not good reasons for leaving (E1 << E2) undefined for negative E1 in cases where E1 * 2 ^ E2 fits within the result type, or for making (E1 >> E2) implementation defined for negative E1.
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| From | Vincent Lefevre <vincent-news@vinc17.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2021-09-23 11:17 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20210923111215$08d3@zira.vinc17.org> |
| In reply to | #6313 |
In article <sif7c9$t46$1@dont-email.me>, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote: > However, those are not good reasons for leaving (E1 << E2) undefined for > negative E1 in cases where E1 * 2 ^ E2 fits within the result type, or > for making (E1 >> E2) implementation defined for negative E1. Yes, and also for non-negative E1. There was a "bug" in GNU MPFR (only affecting tools checking the conformance, as in practice, this worked on all processors, AFAIK), because while we ensured that E1 * 2 ^ E2 always fitted, E2 could be equal to the type width (this can happen when E1 = 0), which is currently disallowed by the standard. -- Vincent Lefèvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/> 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/> Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)
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