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Re: DCL2

From cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups comp.os.vms
Subject Re: DCL2
Date 2025-12-18 15:03 +0000
Organization PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID <10i154t$h6p$1@reader2.panix.com> (permalink)
References <10h055c$217jf$1@dont-email.me> <10ht0rk$34qt0$2@dont-email.me> <10huned$jc8$2@reader2.panix.com> <10hvmbb$3uroi$2@dont-email.me>

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In article <10hvmbb$3uroi$2@dont-email.me>,
Arne Vajhøj  <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>On 12/17/2025 11:57 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
>> In article <10ht0rk$34qt0$2@dont-email.me>,
>> Arne Vajhøj  <arne@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> On 12/16/2025 9:05 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
>>>> Python is interpreted, yes, but people who are using it to do
>>>> numerical analysis are often using the jit-compiled variant,
>>>
>>> Most still use CPython.
>> 
>> In your world of enterprise IT?  Sure.
>> 
>> For numerical analysis?  Directly in Python?  No.
>> 
>>> None of the JIT implementations PyPy, GraalPy, Codon etc. has
>>> really gotten traction.
>
>>> Reason: fear of compatibility issues combined with the fact that
>>> JIT usually does not matter.
>>>
>>> Because:
>>>
>>>>                                                             and
>>>> more often the actual heavy computational lifting is being done
>>>> in a library that's exposed to Python via an FFI; so the actual
>>>> training code is in Fortran or C or some more traditional
>>>> compiled language.
>>>
>>> If CPython interpretation use 0.1-1.0% of total CPU usage
>>> and native library execution use 99.0-99.9% of total CPU usage,
>>> then ...
>> 
>> See above.  I'm talking about software that's doing numerical
>> analysis directly in Python, _not_ via FFI.
>
>But practically nobody does that.

I haven't seen any evidence that suggests you are really in a
position to know that one way or the other.  On the other hand,
I have direct, first-hand knowledge of people who are doing
just that.

>By using the high level packages (pandas, polars,
>tensorflow, pytorch, numpy, scipy etc.) they can
>do what they need to do using much higher level
>constructs. No need to fiddle with LAPACK, BLAS,
>matrix multiplication and inversion algorithms.
>
>And on top of having to deal with much less
>much higher level code they get way better
>performance. The standard libraries are
>much faster than custom Python code even
>if it is JIT compiled.
>
>Nobody want to write 5-10 times more lines
>of code to run 5-10 times slower.

Sorry, but if you want to make a statement about some aspect of
the field that you just aren't involved in, you really need some
evidence to back it up, not just your intuition.

	- Dan C.

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Thread

DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-05 21:41 -0500
  Re: DCL2 Marc Van Dyck <marc.gr.vandyck@invalid.skynet.be> - 2025-12-06 11:42 +0100
    Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-06 10:33 -0500
      Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-06 10:57 -0500
        Re: DCL2 Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-12-06 16:12 +0000
          Re: DCL2 kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2025-12-06 14:45 -0500
            Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-06 15:23 -0500
              Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-06 15:47 -0500
                Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-07 12:03 -0500
              Re: [Info-vax] DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-07 12:09 -0500
            Re: DCL2 Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-12-07 14:18 +0000
              Re: DCL2 kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2025-12-07 10:03 -0500
              Re: DCL2 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-08 20:13 +0000
        Re: [Info-vax] DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-06 15:41 -0500
    Re: DCL2 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-14 01:45 +0000
      Re: DCL2 antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-12-15 01:51 +0000
        Re: DCL2 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 02:56 +0000
        Re: DCL2 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-15 16:37 +0000
          Re: DCL2 jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2025-12-15 19:37 +0000
            Re: DCL2 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 22:59 +0000
      Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-15 11:58 -0500
  Re: DCL2 "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2025-12-06 15:28 -0600
    Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-06 18:46 -0500
      Re: DCL2 "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2025-12-07 07:17 -0600
        Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-07 11:07 -0500
          Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-07 11:13 -0500
            Re: DCL2 steve sparrow <sdsparrow@aol.com> - 2025-12-08 11:14 -0600
              Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-08 19:07 -0500
        Re: DCL2 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-16 14:05 +0000
          Re: DCL2 "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2025-12-16 15:20 -0600
            Re: DCL2 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-16 21:59 +0000
            Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-16 20:17 -0500
              Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-16 20:42 -0500
              Re: DCL2 "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.mac.com> - 2025-12-17 07:19 -0600
                Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-18 09:46 -0500
              Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-18 09:44 -0500
            Re: DCL2 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-17 16:55 +0000
          Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-16 20:26 -0500
            Re: DCL2 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-17 16:57 +0000
              SIMH + OpenVMS 5.5-2H4 standalone BACKUP: ISO appears as DJAx not DUAx flexmcmurphy <plica2006@gmail.com> - 2025-12-17 23:00 +0000
              Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-17 20:45 -0500
                Re: DCL2 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-18 15:03 +0000
      Re: DCL2 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-14 01:41 +0000
        Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-15 11:59 -0500
          Re: DCL2 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-15 23:01 +0000
            Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-15 19:28 -0500
              Re: DCL2 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-16 01:24 +0000
                Re: DCL2 Sam Thomas <sam@noneya.com> - 2025-12-16 17:38 +0000
                Re: DCL2 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-16 22:07 +0000
                Re: DCL2 Sam Thomas <sam@noneya.com> - 2025-12-17 14:52 +0000
                Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-17 20:34 -0500
                Re: DCL2 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-18 02:31 +0000
                Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-17 21:40 -0500
  Re: DCL2 Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-08 14:12 +0000
    Re: DCL2 Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-08 14:23 +0000
    Re: DCL2 bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 15:42 -0500
      Re: DCL2 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-10 20:50 +0000
        Re: DCL2 Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-11 13:11 +0000
          Re: DCL2 cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-11 16:22 +0000
    Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-08 19:58 -0500
      Re: DCL2 Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-09 13:31 +0000
    Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-08 20:35 -0500
      Re: DCL2 Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-09 13:55 +0000
        Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-09 20:08 -0500
          Re: DCL2 Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-10 14:14 +0000
  Re: DCL2 Mark Berryman <mark@theberrymans.com> - 2025-12-13 11:27 -0700
    Re: DCL2 Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-14 01:31 +0000
    Re: DCL2 Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-15 11:48 -0500

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