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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #87875 > unrolled thread

Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT !

Started byc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
First post2026-06-12 01:49 -0400
Last post2026-06-18 04:28 -0400
Articles 20 on this page of 130 — 12 participants

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Contents

  Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-12 01:49 -0400
    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-06-12 07:54 +0200
      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-12 02:12 -0400
        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-06-12 09:03 +0200
          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-12 03:25 -0400
    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-12 06:22 +0000
      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-12 03:14 -0400
        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-12 11:45 +0200
          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-12 23:21 -0400
            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-13 04:20 +0000
            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-14 14:27 +0200
              Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-14 22:51 -0400
                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-15 03:15 +0000
                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-15 01:46 -0400
                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-15 07:16 +0000
                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-15 17:02 +0000
                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-15 19:05 +0000
                      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-15 20:41 +0100
                        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-15 22:21 +0000
                          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 02:00 +0100
                            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-16 02:55 +0000
                              Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 11:54 +0100
                                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-16 18:00 +0000
                                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-17 10:55 +0100
                                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-16 22:07 -0400
                                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-17 03:51 +0000
                        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-16 12:34 +0200
                          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 11:55 +0100
                            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-16 15:14 +0200
                              Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-16 15:10 +0100
                                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-16 18:15 +0000
                                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-16 20:22 +0200
                                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-17 10:58 +0100
                                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-17 16:47 +0000
                                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-16 22:11 -0400
                                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-17 03:29 +0000
                              Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-16 22:09 -0400
                                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-17 03:19 +0000
                          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-16 18:09 +0000
                            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-16 23:23 -0400
                              Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-17 07:20 +0000
                                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-18 04:26 -0400
                                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-18 10:32 +0200
                                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-18 09:44 +0100
                                      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-18 13:55 +0200
                                        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-18 17:02 +0100
                                          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-18 18:37 +0200
                                            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-18 19:14 +0100
                                              Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-18 20:50 +0200
                                                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-18 23:36 +0000
                                                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-19 11:58 +0200
                                                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-19 17:18 +0000
                                            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-18 19:45 +0000
                                              Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-19 00:22 +0200
                                          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-19 02:27 -0400
                                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-18 18:26 +0000
                                      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-18 23:34 +0000
                                        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-19 00:01 +0000
                                      Communism ???? Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-06-18 21:46 -0700
                                        Re: Communism ???? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-19 05:59 +0000
                                          Re: Communism ???? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-19 02:51 -0400
                                        Re: Communism ???? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-19 11:51 +0200
                                          Re: Communism ???? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-19 23:50 -0400
                                            Re: Communism ???? "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-20 08:54 +0200
                                              Re: Communism ???? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-20 03:25 -0400
                                        Re: Communism ???? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-19 13:25 +0100
                                          Re: Communism ???? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-19 16:41 +0000
                                            Re: Communism ???? rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-19 18:22 +0000
                                          Re: Communism ???? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-20 01:48 -0400
                                        Re: Communism ???? c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-20 01:08 -0400
                                      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-19 12:56 +0100
                                        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-19 16:41 +0000
                                        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-19 17:43 +0000
                                          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-19 18:33 +0000
                                            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-20 02:04 -0400
                                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-18 19:41 +0000
                                      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-19 13:21 +0100
                                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-18 19:39 +0000
                              Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-17 19:35 +0000
                                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-18 04:50 -0400
                                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-18 10:25 +0100
                                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-18 18:26 +0000
                                      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-19 13:00 +0100
                                        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-19 17:46 +0000
                                        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-20 01:13 -0400
                                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-18 19:33 +0000
                                      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-19 13:18 +0100
                                        The Walmart Effect (Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT !) Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-06-19 06:12 -0700
                                        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-20 01:44 -0400
                                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-19 02:26 -0400
                                      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-19 13:26 +0100
                          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-16 21:47 -0400
                            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-17 03:13 +0000
                            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-17 10:58 +0100
                            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-17 19:35 +0000
                              Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-18 01:15 +0000
                                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-18 04:42 -0400
                              Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-18 04:49 -0400
                                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-18 18:26 +0000
                                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-18 23:51 +0000
                                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-19 13:12 +0100
                                      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-19 17:15 +0000
                                        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-20 00:10 +0100
                                          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-20 01:44 +0000
                                      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-20 01:42 -0400
        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-12 19:32 +0000
      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-12 11:38 +0200
    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-12 06:27 +0000
      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-12 03:22 -0400
        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! 🇵🇱Jacek Marcin Jaworski🇵🇱 <jmj@energokod.gda.pl> - 2026-06-12 09:53 +0200
          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-12 19:34 +0000
    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-12 11:54 +0200
      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-12 23:37 -0400
        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-13 06:42 +0000
          Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-13 04:18 -0400
            Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-13 20:21 +0000
              Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-13 23:09 -0400
                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-14 06:22 +0000
                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-14 03:57 -0400
                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-14 18:38 +0000
                      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-15 01:27 -0400
                        Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-15 07:11 +0000
                Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! mechanicjay@sol.smbfc.net (Mechanicjay) - 2026-06-14 07:01 +0000
                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-14 04:14 -0400
                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> - 2026-06-14 10:56 +0200
                  Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-06-14 18:40 +0000
                    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-15 01:27 -0400
    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! mechanicjay@sol.smbfc.net (Mechanicjay) - 2026-06-12 13:26 +0000
    Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! Woozy Song <suzyw0ng@outlook.com> - 2026-06-17 15:43 +0800
      Re: Leap-16 ... Oh SHIT ! c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-18 04:28 -0400

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#88093

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-06-19 13:12 +0100
Message-ID<1113bnq$39rgp$5@dont-email.me>
In reply to#88075
On 19/06/2026 00:51, rbowman wrote:
> Milford Wolpoff is a paleoanthropologist who prosed a multiregional model
> rather than the Out of Africa one put forward by Stringer and others. I
> may have the wrong locale but I think it was Java. He remarked that a
> problem for looking for ancient evidence was you were always digging in
> somebody's backyard. There are 3,100 people per square mile, the tightest
> packed island in the world.

The DNA evidence reveals a massively complex branching and interbreeding 
of early homo species

Modern humans comprise DNA from Sapiens Neanderthal and Denisovan..and 
there are many other extinct species who may or may not have wandered 
out of Africa and set up camp in other places in the world.

And had sex with later arrivals,

"Around 6 million years ago, a branch of apes evolved to become the 
first species of the genus Homo. These early humans ditched the long 
arms of apes for stronger legs. While they could no longer swing around 
on trees, they could stand upright, walk, and colonize new ecosystems, 
away from the forest. The brains of early humans grew until we were 
using complex tools to hunt large animals, build fires, and construct 
shelters.

"By the time Homo sapiens arrived on the scene some 300,000 years ago, 
we were the ninth Homo species, joining habilis, erectus, rudolfensis, 
heidelbergensis, floresiensis, neanderthalensis, naledi, and luzonensis. 
Many of these species lived for much longer periods of time than we have"

And that isn't even the latest statement.



-- 
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to 
rule.
– H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

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#88103

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-06-19 17:15 +0000
Message-ID<n9lbp7FmbfkU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88093
On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 13:12:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> The DNA evidence reveals a massively complex branching and interbreeding
> of early homo species
> 
> Modern humans comprise DNA from Sapiens Neanderthal and Denisovan..and
> there are many other extinct species who may or may not have wandered
> out of Africa and set up camp in other places in the world.
> 
> And had sex with later arrivals,

Wolpoff's objection to Stringer's original hypothesis was there wasn't 
enough time a movement out of Africa 50,000 to 70,000 years ago to explain 
the worldwide diversity. Both Wolpoff and Caspari were branded as racists 
by those who couldn't grasp multiregional evolution and thought he meant 
completely separate evolutionary paths. 

https://www.edge.org/conversation/christopher_stringer-rethinking-out-of-
africa

Stringer has revised his untenable theory. Like Gould and others there was 
more politics and wishful thinking than science.

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#88110

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2026-06-20 00:10 +0100
Message-ID<1114ia0$3le55$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#88103
On 19/06/2026 18:15, rbowman wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jun 2026 13:12:42 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> The DNA evidence reveals a massively complex branching and interbreeding
>> of early homo species
>>
>> Modern humans comprise DNA from Sapiens Neanderthal and Denisovan..and
>> there are many other extinct species who may or may not have wandered
>> out of Africa and set up camp in other places in the world.
>>
>> And had sex with later arrivals,
> 
> Wolpoff's objection to Stringer's original hypothesis was there wasn't
> enough time a movement out of Africa 50,000 to 70,000 years ago to explain
> the worldwide diversity.

That's because hom. sap. left Africa several hundred thousand years ago

"The team found part of a fossil human jaw with anatomical features that 
correspond to the modern human species Homo sapiens, as opposed to other 
pre-modern humans such as Neanderthals.

The researchers dated teeth from the jaw and flint tools found with the 
remains, obtaining an average age for the specimens of about 
177,000-194,000 years old.

Until now, the earliest fossil evidence for Homo sapiens outside Africa 
was from other sites in Israel, dating up to 130,000 years ago."

  Both Wolpoff and Caspari were branded as racists
> by those who couldn't grasp multiregional evolution and thought he meant
> completely separate evolutionary paths.
> 
> https://www.edge.org/conversation/christopher_stringer-rethinking-out-of-
> africa
> 
> Stringer has revised his untenable theory. Like Gould and others there was
> more politics and wishful thinking than science.

The more remains are discovered and the more DNA is analysed the more 
complicated things become.

Hon, sap. is not our only ancestor

-- 
"It was a lot more fun being 20 in the 70's that it is being 70 in the 20's"
Joew Walsh

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#88111

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-06-20 01:44 +0000
Message-ID<n9m9jkFqo3gU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#88110
On Sat, 20 Jun 2026 00:10:56 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> The more remains are discovered and the more DNA is analysed the more
> complicated things become.

The Just So Stories evolve faster than h. sapiens ever did. OOA presumed 
L3 mtDNA left Africa headed east and evolved into the M lineages common 
through out Asia. Except for M1, which is found in north Africa. Either 
some women got homesick and went back to north Africa or M arose 
separately from the sub-Saharan L3. 

I'm sure the analyses will lead to some surprises. Well before DNA 
Sinclair Lewis wrote a novel 'Kingsblood Royal'. The protagonist starts a 
genealogical search expecting to find Charles II or someone up the family 
tree and discovers a nigger in the woodpile, so to speak. It doesn't go 
well.

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#88118

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-06-20 01:42 -0400
Message-ID<XO6cnX39YdC4tav3nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#88093
On 6/19/26 08:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 19/06/2026 00:51, rbowman wrote:
>> Milford Wolpoff is a paleoanthropologist who prosed a multiregional model
>> rather than the Out of Africa one put forward by Stringer and others. I
>> may have the wrong locale but I think it was Java. He remarked that a
>> problem for looking for ancient evidence was you were always digging in
>> somebody's backyard. There are 3,100 people per square mile, the tightest
>> packed island in the world.
> 
> The DNA evidence reveals a massively complex branching and interbreeding 
> of early homo species

   Yep !!!

   NO SUCH THING as a 'standard human' at all. Just
   hybrids of hybrids of hybrids for 300,000+ years.

   DNA studies prove groups kept moving back and
   forth and around - fucking anything that looked
   good all along the way. Throw in some Neaderthal
   and Denisovian and maybe a little Erectus too.

   Genetic FESTIVAL !

   The old religious stuff may say one thing, but
   RESEARCH has shown something VERY different.

   Oh yea, ALL THE DEVIL'S WORK to DECEIVE .... :-)

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#87913

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-06-12 19:32 +0000
Message-ID<n93571FqnmpU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#87886
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 03:14:57 -0400, c186282 wrote:

>    Installed "yast" from "Discovery" - didn't even have its real name.
>    Whether you evoke "yast" or "yast2" on the CL you get the SAME
>    curses-based interface. The old GUI version ... does it still exist
>    ???

Officially? No. According to Carlos if you upgraded from Leap 15.x the 
support libraries are still in place and the GUI works. I believe it is 
still available in Tumbleweed, which is upstream of SLE. 

Leap 16 is sort of like the old CentOS that was downstream of RHEL. 
Companies would have a couple of RHEL licenses but most people would use 
the free CentOS for compatibility. People were pissed when Stream moved 
upstream of RHEL and downstream of Fedora and created Rocky.

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#87892

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2026-06-12 11:38 +0200
Message-ID<kl0tfmxnjb.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#87879
On 2026-06-12 08:22, rbowman wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 01:49:42 -0400, c186282 wrote:
> 
> 


>> OpenSUSE used to be kinda 'Cadillac'. Used it for a LONG time - desktops
>> and servers. Now it seems to intentionally work against your desires -
>> as shriveled as a 99 year olds testicles.
> 
> Leap 16 is now downstream of SLE with some additional community packages.

Leap 15 too. All of Leap is that way, in fact.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#87880

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-06-12 06:27 +0000
Message-ID<n91n71Fjf5pU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#87875
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 01:49:42 -0400, c186282 wrote:

> IMHO, if you want RPMs, Fedora. Had serious update probs with the latest
> one though - even NOT in a virtual machine. They know, they can't seem
> to get it fixed properly, hangs about a third of the way through.

You seem to have all sorts of problems. I haven't had a problem with 
Fedora. I usually grab the beta when it's available and that hasn't been a 
problem though I might get more updates than waiting for the release. 


I updated to Ubuntu 26.04 today. It took several hours but everything I 
tried so far seems to work as before except the Python venvs since it went 
to 3.14. I did have a problem with Playwright since it doesn't support 
26.04 yet. There's a funky workaround that sort of works.

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#87887

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-06-12 03:22 -0400
Message-ID<1NqdnXv-U74lLrb3nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#87880
On 6/12/26 02:27, rbowman wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 01:49:42 -0400, c186282 wrote:
> 
>> IMHO, if you want RPMs, Fedora. Had serious update probs with the latest
>> one though - even NOT in a virtual machine. They know, they can't seem
>> to get it fixed properly, hangs about a third of the way through.
> 
> You seem to have all sorts of problems. I haven't had a problem with
> Fedora. I usually grab the beta when it's available and that hasn't been a
> problem though I might get more updates than waiting for the release.

   I *do* seem to be having lots of problems with
   the latest distros. Try a few as VMs, but with
   Fedora it was a bare-metal install on an Intel
   based box - TWO actually.

> I updated to Ubuntu 26.04 today. It took several hours but everything I
> tried so far seems to work as before except the Python venvs since it went
> to 3.14. I did have a problem with Playwright since it doesn't support
> 26.04 yet. There's a funky workaround that sort of works.

   Ubuntu got too weird for my tastes some years ago.
   Too many pointless diffs from Deb, too many "buy
   our cloud/whatever shit" pushes.

   Pure Deb is still "ok" and MX is even better.
   A gazillion other Deb derivs out there too,
   pick yer poison.

   Removed a good Deb13 VM so I could play with SUSE.
   It was good enough though that I made an "appliance"
   out of it ... a VDI and OVA to suit whatever ...
   before zapping it from my VBox.

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#87889

From🇵🇱Jacek Marcin Jaworski🇵🇱 <jmj@energokod.gda.pl>
Date2026-06-12 09:53 +0200
Message-ID<yPadncXreJdmJ7b3nZ2dnZfqnPadnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#87887
W dniu 12.06.2026 o 09:22, c186282 pisze:

>   Ubuntu got too weird for my tastes some years ago.
>   [...], too many "buy
>   our cloud/whatever shit" pushes. 

I never seen that on my Kubuntu 20.04.

-- 
Z totaliztycznym salutem!
Jacek Marcin Jaworski,  Pruszcz Gd., woj. Pomorskie, Polska 🇵🇱, UE 🇪🇺;
tel.: +48-609-170-742,   najlepiej w godz.: 5:00-5:55 lub 16:00-17:25;
<jmj@energokod.gda.pl>, gpg: 4A541AA7A6E872318B85D7F6A651CC39244B0BFA;
Domowa s. WWW:                             <https://energokod.gda.pl>;
Mini Netykieta:         <https://energokod.gda.pl/MiniNetykieta.html>;
Mailowa Samoobrona:             <https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/pl>.
UWAGA:
NIE ZACIĄGAJ "UKRYTEGO DŁUGU"! PŁAĆ ZA PROG. FOSS I INFO. INTERNETOWE!
CZYTAJ DARMOWY: "17. Raport Totaliztyczny - Patroni Kontra Bankierzy":
<https://energokod.gda.pl/raporty-totaliztyczne/17.%20Patroni%20Kontra%20Bankierzy.pdf>

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#87914

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-06-12 19:34 +0000
Message-ID<n935aoFqnmpU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#87889
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 09:53:18 +0200, 🇵🇱Jacek Marcin Jaworski🇵🇱 wrote:

> W dniu 12.06.2026 o 09:22, c186282 pisze:
> 
>>   Ubuntu got too weird for my tastes some years ago.
>>   [...], too many "buy our cloud/whatever shit" pushes.
> 
> I never seen that on my Kubuntu 20.04.

I've never seen it with Ubuntu. There is the 'pro' thing that is free to 
individual users. When I upgraded to 26.04 yesterday I skipped that 
screen.

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#87894

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2026-06-12 11:54 +0200
Message-ID<nj1tfmxmqg.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#87875
On 2026-06-12 07:49, c186282 wrote:
> OK ... OpenSUSE has become just kinda TERRIBLE ... it's
> like stepping 25 years back.
> 
> The installer won't let you change the disks - BTRFS or
> nothing.

Not true. I installed it on ext4.

It is more difficult than before, it has changed, but it is there.

> The desktops offered are KDS (nasty), GNOME
> (worse) or an XCFC that will only use Wayland and will

Not true. There are two versions of XFCE, one experimental for wayland, 
and another for X, the traditional.

> not start properly in VirtualBox (unless you pick an
> 'invalid' option = 800x600)

Works fine in vmware.

> 
> AFTER install, theoretically Cinemmon and IceWM are
> to be had ... but IF you install them then even the
> cheat boot won't work. (if starting from XFCE)

I don't know what "cheat boot" is.

> 
> Other software and devel stuff - a VERY short list.

Not true. Search using "opi".

> 
> WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED ???
> 
> What an EMBARRASSMENT !
> 
> Is the "team" down to one old guy with a
> "Fallen And Can't Get Up" tag around
> his neck ? Shows how much a distro CAN
> rot away.
> 
> Yea, tried the offline AND online installers.

You did not try the upgrade.

> 
> Hell, even had to install YAST2 using Zypper.
> NO software center at all in XFCE. The one
> in KDE, "Discovery", only shows maybe ten
> percent of the actual software to be had ...
> gotta use YAST.

YaST is deprecated. NOT maintained. Abandoned.

The graphical installer is now "myrlyn" and has almost everything yast 
software package manager had, but different.


Oh, and Yast in graphical mode also works, without icons.

...

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#87916

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-06-12 23:37 -0400
Message-ID<MY6cnV1K1r3rTbH3nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#87894
Forget it. Squished it into an OVA and sent it
to the dark dimensions of my NAS. Then DELETED
the VM.

My appraisal - DON'T BOTHER.

OpenSUSE used to be SO good, SO complete, SO helpful.

Now ........

And frankly don't entirely trust the RPM universe
since RH sold out to IBM. If IBM wants me to be
a beta-tester it can PAY me.

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#87924

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-06-13 06:42 +0000
Message-ID<n94ceaF1vqdU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#87916
On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 23:37:58 -0400, c186282 wrote:

> And frankly don't entirely trust the RPM universe since RH sold out to
> IBM. If IBM wants me to be a beta-tester it can PAY me.

Your options are quite limited. I was going to put up MX in a VM. It may 
be me but the estimate was 2 or 3 hours to download the 2.8 GB Xfce iso. I 
canceled the download and may try again some time. I'm not a fan of 
anything that goes through SourceForge for downloads.

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#87929

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-06-13 04:18 -0400
Message-ID<MY6cnVpK1r3dj7D3nZ2dnZfqn_GdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#87924
I
On 6/13/26 02:42, rbowman wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jun 2026 23:37:58 -0400, c186282 wrote:
> 
>> And frankly don't entirely trust the RPM universe since RH sold out to
>> IBM. If IBM wants me to be a beta-tester it can PAY me.
> 
> Your options are quite limited. I was going to put up MX in a VM. It may
> be me but the estimate was 2 or 3 hours to download the 2.8 GB Xfce iso. I
> canceled the download and may try again some time. I'm not a fan of
> anything that goes through SourceForge for downloads.

   MX is Very Good. Have it on several boxes and
   have for years.

   DO give it a shot. Great "middle" distro with
   some very useful add-on utils. Everything seems
   to Just Work as expected/needed. No BS.

   The XFCE version is probably "best" overall, but
   as I remember you're a KDE fanatic.

   Red Hat used to be good ... but after selling out
   to IBM, it and all the downstream versions became
   basically "beta testing" versions for IBM.

   As said, they can PAY ME to be a beta tester.

   Don't hate RH or IBM - indeed own some stock - but
   NOT gonna be their beta tester.

   Of course plenty of OTHER distros out there beyond MX,
   Linux and BSD. IF you have the bandwidth then try 'em
   and see what fits YOUR wants and needs. I'm not some
   religious crusader here ... whatever suits YOU.

   FLUSHED the disappointing OpenSUSE ... updated and
   made an OVA and removed it from my VMs. Will use the
   space to try other stuff. It'll remain on my most
   obscure NAS drive for awhile, until I want the space
   for something else. SO disappointed ! Remembered
   MUCH better !

   Hmm, ever tried GenToo ? I never did. Might be worth
   a look .......

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#87942

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-06-13 20:21 +0000
Message-ID<n95sdkF8crcU5@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#87929
On Sat, 13 Jun 2026 04:18:40 -0400, c186282 wrote:


>    The XFCE version is probably "best" overall, but as I remember you're
>    a KDE fanatic.

I've got KDE on the Fedora and Leap boxes. Don't need another KDE to 
confuse me. I had Debian/Xfce on my Linux box at work. Certainly usable 
and the trailing edge is a good place to be with a production machine. The 
real driver was I needed a 32 bit distro. 

>    Red Hat used to be good ... but after selling out to IBM, it and all
>    the downstream versions became basically "beta testing" versions for
>    IBM.

When I switched from Red Hat Linux to SuSE in 2002, RHL was sort of beta. 
Q.v. gcc 2.96.

https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-2.96.html

They had to follow up with another version since it wouldn't compile the 
kernel. The RHL Python brew also broke existing scripts. There were 
probably other problems I didn't run into. It only took a couple of 
decades before I would look at Fedora.

>    Of course plenty of OTHER distros out there beyond MX,
>    Linux and BSD. IF you have the bandwidth then try 'em and see what
>    fits YOUR wants and needs. I'm not some religious crusader here ...
>    whatever suits YOU.

Truth is for what I do Leap, Fedora, Ubuntu, and Mint/Cinnamon all work 
equally well. antiX with IceWM might not but that's sort of an experiment 
with the eeePC. That isn't and never was something you'd want to do a lot 
of work on.

I do keep an eye out for a distro when I get ambitious enough to redo the 
Ubuntu box. 26.04 is the end of the line for it. Even 26.10 supposedly 
will be filled with AI goodness.

>    Hmm, ever tried GenToo ? I never did. Might be worth a look .......

Nope. I don't distro hop as much as put different distros on different 
machines for variety. I've got other fish to fry than nursing Gentoo or 
one of the BSDs along. 

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#87945

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-06-13 23:09 -0400
Message-ID<QAWdnepoMpIDhrP3nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#87942
On 6/13/26 16:21, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jun 2026 04:18:40 -0400, c186282 wrote:
> 
> 
>>     The XFCE version is probably "best" overall, but as I remember you're
>>     a KDE fanatic.
> 
> I've got KDE on the Fedora and Leap boxes. Don't need another KDE to
> confuse me. I had Debian/Xfce on my Linux box at work. Certainly usable
> and the trailing edge is a good place to be with a production machine. The
> real driver was I needed a 32 bit distro.
> 
>>     Red Hat used to be good ... but after selling out to IBM, it and all
>>     the downstream versions became basically "beta testing" versions for
>>     IBM.
> 
> When I switched from Red Hat Linux to SuSE in 2002, RHL was sort of beta.
> Q.v. gcc 2.96.
> 
> https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-2.96.html
> 
> They had to follow up with another version since it wouldn't compile the
> kernel. The RHL Python brew also broke existing scripts. There were
> probably other problems I didn't run into. It only took a couple of
> decades before I would look at Fedora.
> 
>>     Of course plenty of OTHER distros out there beyond MX,
>>     Linux and BSD. IF you have the bandwidth then try 'em and see what
>>     fits YOUR wants and needs. I'm not some religious crusader here ...
>>     whatever suits YOU.
> 
> Truth is for what I do Leap, Fedora, Ubuntu, and Mint/Cinnamon all work
> equally well. antiX with IceWM might not but that's sort of an experiment
> with the eeePC. That isn't and never was something you'd want to do a lot
> of work on.
> 
> I do keep an eye out for a distro when I get ambitious enough to redo the
> Ubuntu box. 26.04 is the end of the line for it. Even 26.10 supposedly
> will be filled with AI goodness.
> 
>>     Hmm, ever tried GenToo ? I never did. Might be worth a look .......
> 
> Nope. I don't distro hop as much as put different distros on different
> machines for variety. I've got other fish to fry than nursing Gentoo or
> one of the BSDs along.


   Distro-hopping ... means throwing away more work
   that I'd like.

   Distro TESTING however ... that's something VBox is
   good for.

   After some fooling around for years, MX is now my
   go-to. Middle-of-the-road, you can easily add to
   it or subtract from it. Good utilities selection,
   seems to run on anything even more reliably than Mint.
   Guess there's a reason it's been hovering near or at
   the top of the DistroWatch list for years on end.

   Did have a Manjaro box for awhile. A speck too weird
   but, with a few tweaks, it worked OK. Until, after
   about a year, the whole updates thing exploded to
   hell and NONE of the suggested fixes helped. Had
   to flush it. The box is now ... you guessed it.

   Now for a "small" Linux - ANTIX - but DO have to
   replace all those utterly dismal and depressing
   Greek commie backgrounds with something more
   cheerful  :-)

   Still interested in trying GenToo ... never have.
   Some describe it as "Linux-ish" though technically
   it's a Linux.

   BSDs ... have had best experiences with Dragonfly and
   Ghost. Free/Net/Open ... great for servers but not the
   best 'desktop' experience.

   Not REALLY what they're meant for however. Did run one
   my office servers on Free for about a year - solid
   and secure if not exactly 'cutting edge'. BSDs are
   always behind when it comes to drivers. Still, now,
   I'd pick Free over the Gnome-infested CENTOS.

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#87950

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-06-14 06:22 +0000
Message-ID<n96vl6Fe4lkU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#87945
On Sat, 13 Jun 2026 23:09:35 -0400, c186282 wrote:

>    Distro TESTING however ... that's something VBox is good for.

kvm/QEMU for me. I know you had problems with it but I haven't. 

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#87953

Fromc186282 <c186282@nnada.net>
Date2026-06-14 03:57 -0400
Message-ID<QAWdnRxoMpKrwrP3nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@giganews.com>
In reply to#87950
On 6/14/26 02:22, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jun 2026 23:09:35 -0400, c186282 wrote:
> 
>>     Distro TESTING however ... that's something VBox is good for.
> 
> kvm/QEMU for me. I know you had problems with it but I haven't.

   KVM/Xen and friends ... works but it's
   just nasty/crude compared to VirtualBox.

   Used 'em all on my office servers.

   Alas VBox, of late, has become kinda weird.
   MAYbe they'll fix it, MAYbe they'll only do
   it if you pay lots of money.

   We'll see shortly.

   VMs can be very useful. Great for testing new
   distros ... but can also be used to turn your
   expensive super-server into MANY de-facto
   machines. Everybody got USED to this, but NOW
   that path is NOT as clear - unless you want
   to spend vast quantities of money. MIGHT be
   cheaper to buy 10 actual boxes instead .....

   For the record, do NOT think it's a great idea
   to VM one machine into 10. Hardware FAILS ...
   and then it'll take your WHOLE operation down.
   Been there, seen it, smelled the smoke coming
   out of the server.

   Yea, ACTUAL smoke - higher-end board too.

   Just this week I tested OpenSUSE. After allocating
   what I *thought* would be enough fake disk space
   I saw I'd already used up like 85% plus. VBox ...
   just move a slider and wait maybe ten minutes.
   KVM/Xen/etc ... it's editing fiddly config files
   and then two or three weird/dangerous ops to
   convince the OS to use the extra space.

   So, guess which solution I go with ....

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#87965

Fromrbowman <bowman@montana.com>
Date2026-06-14 18:38 +0000
Message-ID<n98ap3Fkc5pU5@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#87953
On Sun, 14 Jun 2026 03:57:59 -0400, c186282 wrote:


>    Alas VBox, of late, has become kinda weird.
>    MAYbe they'll fix it, MAYbe they'll only do it if you pay lots of
>    money.

I didn't try really hard but VB on Mint didn't go smoothly even after 
blacklisting the kvm module. It bitched about dependencies that looked 
like they would conflict with installed packages. No need when 'apt 
install virt-manager' goes smoothly.

>    For the record, do NOT think it's a great idea to VM one machine into
>    10. Hardware FAILS ...
>    and then it'll take your WHOLE operation down. Been there, seen it,
>    smelled the smoke coming out of the server.
> 
>    Yea, ACTUAL smoke - higher-end board too.

I had a long discussion with one of our senior implementation people. 
Mirroring a VM to another VM on the same box doesn't cover your ass very 
well. 

We used VMs for testing in house. The discussions could get heated if 
someone shutdown a VM they didn't think anyone was using to fire up 
another one. 


>    Just this week I tested OpenSUSE. After allocating what I *thought*
>    would be enough fake disk space I saw I'd already used up like 85%
>    plus. VBox ... just move a slider and wait maybe ten minutes.
>    KVM/Xen/etc ... it's editing fiddly config files and then two or
>    three weird/dangerous ops to convince the OS to use the extra space.
> 
>    So, guess which solution I go with ....

I skimped with MX and gave it 20 GB. It used 11 G, which is okay for my 
purposed. I also gave it 8 GB of RAM and so far it's used under 1 GB. Not 
bad.

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