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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #37342 > unrolled thread

Dumb Pinter Question

Started bypH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>
First post2023-03-01 23:22 +0000
Last post2023-03-02 17:52 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 71 — 18 participants

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  Dumb Pinter Question pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> - 2023-03-01 23:22 +0000
    Re: Dumb Pinter Question Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2023-03-02 01:59 +0000
      Re: Dumb Pinter Question "28A.I873" <28A.I873@noabzba.net> - 2023-03-01 22:45 -0500
      Re: Dumb Pinter Question Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2023-03-02 07:04 +0100
        Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-02 09:58 +0000
      Re: Dumb Pinter Question Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2023-03-02 10:34 +0100
      Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-02 09:53 +0000
    Re: Dumb Pinter Question "28A.I873" <28A.I873@noabzba.net> - 2023-03-01 22:40 -0500
      Re: Dumb Pinter Question John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-03-02 05:17 +0000
        Re: Dumb Pinter Question Michael Uplawski <michael.uplawski@uplawski.eu> - 2023-03-02 07:14 +0100
        Re: Dumb Pinter Question Michael Uplawski <michael.uplawski@uplawski.eu> - 2023-03-02 13:56 +0100
          Re: Dumb Pinter Question John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-03-03 05:34 +0000
        Re: Dumb Pinter Question "28A.I873" <28A.I873@noabzba.net> - 2023-03-02 23:47 -0500
          Re: Dumb Pinter Question John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-03-03 05:52 +0000
          Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-03 09:00 +0000
            Re: Dumb Pinter Question "28A.I873" <28A.I873@noabzba.net> - 2023-03-04 02:36 -0500
              Re: Dumb Pinter Question Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> - 2023-03-04 10:33 +0000
                Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-04 10:42 +0000
                  Re: Dumb Pinter Question Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-04 11:30 +0000
                    Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-04 11:56 +0000
                  Re: Dumb Pinter Question "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2023-03-04 13:57 +0100
                Re: Dumb Pinter Question "28B.I874" <28B.I874@noabzba.net> - 2023-03-04 20:58 -0500
                  Re: Dumb Pinter Question John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-03-05 08:16 +0000
                    Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-05 13:32 +0000
                      Re: Dumb Pinter Question John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-03-06 08:36 +0000
                    Re: Dumb Pinter Question Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> - 2023-03-05 16:47 +0000
                      Re: Dumb Pinter Question John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-03-06 08:16 +0000
                    Re: Dumb Pinter Question "28B.I874" <28B.I874@noabzba.net> - 2023-03-06 00:20 -0500
                      Re: Dumb Pinter Question Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2023-03-06 16:03 +1000
                        Re: Dumb Pinter Question John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-03-06 08:44 +0000
                          Re: Dumb Pinter Question "28B.I874" <28B.I874@noabzba.net> - 2023-03-06 08:46 -0500
                            Re: Dumb Pinter Question "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2023-03-07 08:58 +0100
                              Re: Dumb Pinter Question John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-03-07 08:36 +0000
                                Re: Dumb Pinter Question "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2023-03-07 11:39 +0100
                                  Re: Dumb Pinter Question not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2023-03-08 08:09 +1000
                                    Re: Dumb Pinter Question not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2023-03-08 08:13 +1000
                                    Re: Dumb Pinter Question John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-03-08 05:42 +0000
                                      Re: Dumb Pinter Question Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2023-03-08 16:09 +1000
                                        Re: Dumb Pinter Question "28B.I874" <28B.I874@noabzba.net> - 2023-03-08 01:38 -0500
                                          Re: Dumb Pinter Question John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-03-08 08:25 +0000
                                          Re: Dumb Pinter Question Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2023-03-08 19:28 +1000
                                            Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-08 10:24 +0000
                                              Re: Dumb Pinter Question not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2023-03-09 08:23 +1000
                                                Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-09 10:02 +0000
                                                  Re: Dumb Pinter Question not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2023-03-10 08:16 +1000
                                                    Re: Dumb Pinter Question "28C.I874" <28C.I874@noabgba.net> - 2023-03-09 20:46 -0500
                                                    Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-10 11:25 +0000
                                        Re: Dumb Pinter Question Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2023-03-08 15:02 +0000
                          Re: Dumb Pinter Question not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2023-03-07 07:45 +1000
                            Re: Dumb Pinter Question "28B.I874" <28B.I874@noabzba.net> - 2023-03-06 20:20 -0500
                              Re: Dumb Pinter Question pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> - 2023-03-07 02:11 +0000
                                Re: Dumb Pinter Question "28B.I874" <28B.I874@noabzba.net> - 2023-03-07 00:54 -0500
                              Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-07 10:45 +0000
                            Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-07 10:31 +0000
                      Re: Dumb Pinter Question John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2023-03-06 08:30 +0000
              Re: Dumb Pinter Question Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2023-03-04 18:46 -0500
      Re: Dumb Pinter Question Rob van der Putten <rob@sput.nl> - 2023-03-02 10:44 +0100
        Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-02 09:56 +0000
      Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-02 09:55 +0000
    Re: Dumb Pinter Question Joerg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.ch> - 2023-03-02 07:04 +0100
      Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-02 09:57 +0000
        Re: Dumb Pinter Question Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2023-03-02 21:50 -0500
          Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-03 09:03 +0000
    Re: Dumb Pinter Question Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2023-03-02 16:44 +1000
      Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-02 10:00 +0000
    Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-02 09:50 +0000
      Re: Dumb Pinter Question Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2023-03-02 21:56 -0500
        Re: Dumb Pinter Question Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2023-03-02 22:14 -0800
        Re: Dumb Pinter Question The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2023-03-03 09:08 +0000
    Re: Dumb Pinter Question "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2023-03-02 14:44 +0100
      Re: Dumb Pinter Question pH <wNOSPAMp@gmail.org> - 2023-03-02 17:52 +0000

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#37409

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2023-03-04 13:57 +0100
Message-ID<errbdjxa8n.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#37404
On 2023-03-04 11:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 10:33, Mike Scott wrote:
>> On 04/03/2023 07:36, 28A.I873 wrote:
>>>    Anyway, this is all why I don't rec inkjets anymore.
>>>    If you aren't printing all day the heads WILL gum up
>>>    and you'll have to go thru 10 "purge" cycles (there
>>>    goes most of yer expensive ink) to MAYbe clear all
>>
>> A sad story: years ago, I had a nice printer, Canon IIRC. Fairly 
>> speedy, duplex, print onto CD. separate cartridges for colours and 
>> black. Yes, nice.
>>
>> One day, the yellow, I think it was, ran out. I replaced it, and the 
>> printer ran its load/clean cycle. Now the magenta was out... You can 
>> see where this went..... I ended up putting a complete set of 
>> cartridges in purely because one had run out, and now yellow was low 
>> again. £50 down the drain in short order.
>>
>> I scrapped the printer (refused even to give it away) and bought a 
>> laser. Yes, I miss colour on the very odd occasion, but almost all our 
>> printing is in b/w and the running costs are so much lower. And no 
>> gumming up just because it's been idle for a week.
>>
>>
> My HP color laserjet runs on 3rd party cartridges at around £200 a full 
> set, but does about 1000 color pages for that. More if its just a bit of 
> color - like documents with a few illustrations
> It came with cartridges that do around 200 pages and the whole shebang 
> was not much more than £200
> 
> 
> 
> Generally only one cartridge runs out at a time. I had one issue with a 
> bad cartridge that went stripey way before it was empty, A new one fixed 
> it.

I also had a Canon inkjet printer (BJC4200, I think), and I got tired of 
it. The colour cartridges were expensive (50€, maybe), and did not last 
long. I learned how to refill them relatively cheap, but that non 
original ink tended to clog. Cleaning was easy in theory, just remove 
the cartridge, put a few drops of alcohol on the head, wipe it, then 
blow a bit with my mouth with the heads on a paper tissue. Repeat till 
the three colours came out. And refill. And clean cycle, test.

This meant that every time I needed to print something important after 
two weeks of not using the printer I had to waste an hour or two till 
the thing would work and work well.

Eventually I bought an HP colour laser printer. Toner is expensive, yes, 
but it works every time I power it up, even after months of not using 
it. Considering the number of ink cartridges I wasted, I'm not sure the 
laser is more expensive.

And my heart health improved, no more swearing :-D

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#37416

From"28B.I874" <28B.I874@noabzba.net>
Date2023-03-04 20:58 -0500
Message-ID<-MKdnaGEcp-jap75nZ2dnZfqn_idnZ2d@earthlink.com>
In reply to#37403
On 3/4/23 5:33 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
> On 04/03/2023 07:36, 28A.I873 wrote:
>>    Anyway, this is all why I don't rec inkjets anymore.
>>    If you aren't printing all day the heads WILL gum up
>>    and you'll have to go thru 10 "purge" cycles (there
>>    goes most of yer expensive ink) to MAYbe clear all
> 
> A sad story: years ago, I had a nice printer, Canon IIRC. Fairly speedy, 
> duplex, print onto CD. separate cartridges for colours and black. Yes, 
> nice.
> 
> One day, the yellow, I think it was, ran out. I replaced it, and the 
> printer ran its load/clean cycle. Now the magenta was out... You can see 
> where this went..... I ended up putting a complete set of cartridges in 
> purely because one had run out, and now yellow was low again. £50 down 
> the drain in short order.
> 
> I scrapped the printer (refused even to give it away) and bought a 
> laser. Yes, I miss colour on the very odd occasion, but almost all our 
> printing is in b/w and the running costs are so much lower. And no 
> gumming up just because it's been idle for a week.

   Many have similar tales - yet people STILL buy lots
   of inkjets. The up-front price IS lower, which I think
   is the main attraction, but the downstream ink/gumming
   issues ruin it all quickly.

   The guy who invented the Schick razor so so long ago
   made a smart decision - sell the actual razor body
   real cheap ... and make it up on the BLADES afterwards.
   His patents meant he could keep clones away for a
   very long time so ... well ... the company is STILL
   in biz :-)

   Anyway, lasers ARE the way to go these days. Reliable
   and ultimately much cheaper to operate. Of note, most
   color laser drivers DO have an option for printing
   black ONLY with black toner - so you can NOT use up
   the color cartridges except when you really need
   color. Win-win.




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#37419

FromJohn Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com>
Date2023-03-05 08:16 +0000
Message-ID<tu1j53$ned$1@reader2.panix.com>
In reply to#37416
28B.I874 <28B.I874@noabzba.net> wrote:
>   <<snip>>
>   Anyway, lasers ARE the way to go these days. Reliable
>   and ultimately much cheaper to operate. Of note, most
>   color laser drivers DO have an option for printing
>   black ONLY with black toner - so you can NOT use up
>   the color cartridges except when you really need
>   color. Win-win.

Okay, you've maybe convinced me. Actually, I was already
convinced before buying the Brother MFC-J6920DW, but the
problem (at that time, ~2016) I needed an 11x17" tabloid
with an 11x17" scanner. Indeed, the scanner's still what
I really need.  So, you got a color laser recommendation
that satisfies that requirement?  And, of course, a good
linux (slackware, in particular) driver. Thanks.
-- 
John Forkosh  ( mailto:  j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )

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#37422

FromThe Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Date2023-03-05 13:32 +0000
Message-ID<tu25l2$vlig$16@dont-email.me>
In reply to#37419
On 05/03/2023 08:16, John Forkosh wrote:
> 28B.I874 <28B.I874@noabzba.net> wrote:
>>    <<snip>>
>>    Anyway, lasers ARE the way to go these days. Reliable
>>    and ultimately much cheaper to operate. Of note, most
>>    color laser drivers DO have an option for printing
>>    black ONLY with black toner - so you can NOT use up
>>    the color cartridges except when you really need
>>    color. Win-win.
> 
> Okay, you've maybe convinced me. Actually, I was already
> convinced before buying the Brother MFC-J6920DW, but the
> problem (at that time, ~2016) I needed an 11x17" tabloid
> with an 11x17" scanner. Indeed, the scanner's still what
> I really need.  So, you got a color laser recommendation
> that satisfies that requirement?  And, of course, a good
> linux (slackware, in particular) driver. Thanks.

11x17" - that's a bit non standard That's A3 (11.7 in x 16.5 in) isn't 
it? Completely outside the 'consumer' and into the 'professional' ,

To get a colour laser that does that new will not be cheap, HP want 
£1000+ ...you might be better looking at a used one out of a bankrupt 
company

Ebay has a few at the sort of £500 level, In the UK




-- 
  “A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader, 
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say, 
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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#37440

FromJohn Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com>
Date2023-03-06 08:36 +0000
Message-ID<tu48lk$777$2@reader2.panix.com>
In reply to#37422
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> John Forkosh wrote:
>> 28B.I874 <28B.I874@noabzba.net> wrote:
>>>    <<snip>>
>>>    Anyway, lasers ARE the way to go these days. Reliable
>>>    and ultimately much cheaper to operate. Of note, most
>>>    color laser drivers DO have an option for printing
>>>    black ONLY with black toner - so you can NOT use up
>>>    the color cartridges except when you really need
>>>    color. Win-win.
>> 
>> Okay, you've maybe convinced me. Actually, I was already
>> convinced before buying the Brother MFC-J6920DW, but the
>> problem (at that time, ~2016) I needed an 11x17" tabloid
>> with an 11x17" scanner. Indeed, the scanner's still what
>> I really need.  So, you got a color laser recommendation
>> that satisfies that requirement?  And, of course, a good
>> linux (slackware, in particular) driver. Thanks.
> 
> 11x17" - that's a bit non standard That's A3 (11.7 in x 16.5 in) isn't 
> it? Completely outside the 'consumer' and into the 'professional' ,
> 
> To get a colour laser that does that new will not be cheap, HP want 
> $1000+ ...you might be better looking at a used one out of a bankrupt 
> company. Ebay has a few at the sort of $500 level, In the UK

11x17" scanning was my only real requirement; printing just a bonus.
And the all-clogged-up MFC-J6920DW is still scanning fine, so I'll
probably just stick with what I already have. Thanks.
-- 
John Forkosh  ( mailto:  j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )

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#37429

FromMike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid>
Date2023-03-05 16:47 +0000
Message-ID<tu2h3p$1ctna$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#37419
On 05/03/2023 08:16, John Forkosh wrote:
...
> Okay, you've maybe convinced me. Actually, I was already
> convinced before buying the Brother MFC-J6920DW, but the
> problem (at that time, ~2016) I needed an 11x17" tabloid
> with an 11x17" scanner. Indeed, the scanner's still what
> I really need.  So, you got a color laser recommendation
> that satisfies that requirement?  And, of course, a good
> linux (slackware, in particular) driver. Thanks.

Word of warning: I've had trouble with PPDs supplied by the 
auto-discover printer install stuff. It seems "True" and "true" are not 
interchangeable in PPDs, and someone somewhere used the wrong one, the 
result being that multi-copy printing doesn't "just work" for my 
Brother. I've had to manually install the printer and fix the PPD.

I'm still hazy as to how and where the auto-detect PPDs are generated.


-- 
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

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#37438

FromJohn Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com>
Date2023-03-06 08:16 +0000
Message-ID<tu47gj$mpt$1@reader2.panix.com>
In reply to#37429
Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
> John Forkosh wrote:
> ...
>> Okay, you've maybe convinced me. Actually, I was already
>> convinced before buying the Brother MFC-J6920DW, but the
>> problem (at that time, ~2016) I needed an 11x17" tabloid
>> with an 11x17" scanner. Indeed, the scanner's still what
>> I really need.  So, you got a color laser recommendation
>> that satisfies that requirement?  And, of course, a good
>> linux (slackware, in particular) driver. Thanks.
> 
> Word of warning: I've had trouble with PPDs supplied by the 
> auto-discover printer install stuff. It seems "True" and "true" are
> not interchangeable in PPDs, and someone somewhere used the wrong one,
> the result being that multi-copy printing doesn't "just work" for my 
> Brother. I've had to manually install the printer and fix the PPD.
> 
> I'm still hazy as to how and where the auto-detect PPDs are generated.

Yeah, I'd recommend that you >>do not<< use the default PPDs
supplied with the slackware distro, at least not for Brother.
For my Brother HL-L2395DW laser, and also MFC-J6920DW inkjet,
I just googled
   linux HL-L2395DW install      [substitute your own model]
and the very first hit (for the HL-L2395DW) took me to
   https://support.brother.com/g/b/downloadtop.aspx?
   c=us&lang=en&prod=hll2395dw_us_as
that lets you download "Driver Install Tool" scripts for that
printer which set up everything correctly. Sets up /etc/cups/
and the various cups-related directories under /usr, and also
creates an /opt/Brother/ directory with various other stuff.
-- 
John Forkosh  ( mailto:  j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )

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#37432

From"28B.I874" <28B.I874@noabzba.net>
Date2023-03-06 00:20 -0500
Message-ID<17ydnXi6-MG65Zj5nZ2dnZfqnPednZ2d@earthlink.com>
In reply to#37419
On 3/5/23 3:16 AM, John Forkosh wrote:
> 28B.I874 <28B.I874@noabzba.net> wrote:
>>    <<snip>>
>>    Anyway, lasers ARE the way to go these days. Reliable
>>    and ultimately much cheaper to operate. Of note, most
>>    color laser drivers DO have an option for printing
>>    black ONLY with black toner - so you can NOT use up
>>    the color cartridges except when you really need
>>    color. Win-win.
> 
> Okay, you've maybe convinced me. Actually, I was already
> convinced before buying the Brother MFC-J6920DW, but the
> problem (at that time, ~2016) I needed an 11x17" tabloid
> with an 11x17" scanner. Indeed, the scanner's still what
> I really need.  So, you got a color laser recommendation
> that satisfies that requirement?  And, of course, a good
> linux (slackware, in particular) driver. Thanks.


   Ummm ... larger-format paper IS an issue. Most semi-cheap
   lasers and all-in-ones, (I know HP) can feed 'legal'
   paper. 11x17 and above .... well ... separate large-format
   scanner + large-format printer. That's $$$ no matter how
   you do it. Anything wider than 11" and you'll likely need
   to take a stick to a print shop - or spend kilobucks on
   like a huge 'office' Kyocera laser.

   I saw a sort of 'inkjet' at an archetect's ... it looked
   like a long rectangle. You put BIG sheets of paper, like
   48"x48", into it one sheet at a time and it pulled it
   past the printhead(s?). I rather doubt it was cheap.

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#37435

FromComputer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid>
Date2023-03-06 16:03 +1000
Message-ID<6405822a@news.ausics.net>
In reply to#37432
28B.I874 <28B.I874@noabzba.net> wrote:
>   Ummm ... larger-format paper IS an issue. Most semi-cheap
>   lasers and all-in-ones, (I know HP) can feed 'legal'
>   paper. 11x17 and above .... well ... separate large-format
>   scanner + large-format printer. That's $$$ no matter how
>   you do it. Anything wider than 11" and you'll likely need
>   to take a stick to a print shop - or spend kilobucks on
>   like a huge 'office' Kyocera laser.

I just do multiple scans and stitch the images together manually.
Or I use a digital camera, and say I'll get around to fixing the
lens distortion in software one day...

I do have a digital A3 scanner on top of a broken
photocopier/office-printer, but of course the software refuses to
work if the printer part doesn't pass its self-test.

>   I saw a sort of 'inkjet' at an archetect's ... it looked
>   like a long rectangle. You put BIG sheets of paper, like
>   48"x48", into it one sheet at a time and it pulled it
>   past the printhead(s?). I rather doubt it was cheap.

They're ink-jets, newer models often use UV-curable ink. Once the
cartridges go out of production those large format printer models
go from expensive to cheap extremely quickly.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#37441

FromJohn Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com>
Date2023-03-06 08:44 +0000
Message-ID<tu4963$777$3@reader2.panix.com>
In reply to#37435
Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> 28B.I874 <28B.I874@noabzba.net> wrote:
>>   Ummm ... larger-format paper IS an issue. Most semi-cheap
>>   lasers and all-in-ones, (I know HP) can feed 'legal'
>>   paper. 11x17 and above .... well ... separate large-format
>>   scanner + large-format printer. That's $$$ no matter how
>>   you do it. Anything wider than 11" and you'll likely need
>>   to take a stick to a print shop - or spend kilobucks on
>>   like a huge 'office' Kyocera laser.
> 
> I just do multiple scans and stitch the images together manually.

At the moment, I've got 5,000+ pages to scan from large-format
paper notebooks. So "multiple scans" per page would be really
inconvenient. I already have to manually turn the pages, can't
use autofeed for bound notebooks, and each 152-page notebook
takes ~2.5hours to scan. Definitely a pain in the elbow.

> Or I use a digital camera, and say I'll get around to fixing the
> lens distortion in software one day...
>
> I do have a digital A3 scanner on top of a broken
> photocopier/office-printer, but of course the software refuses to
> work if the printer part doesn't pass its self-test.

The Brother MFC-J6920DW does complain about the "printer part"
every time I power it up, but it's easy to proceed past the warning.

>>   I saw a sort of 'inkjet' at an archetect's ... it looked
>>   like a long rectangle. You put BIG sheets of paper, like
>>   48"x48", into it one sheet at a time and it pulled it
>>   past the printhead(s?). I rather doubt it was cheap.
> 
> They're ink-jets, newer models often use UV-curable ink. Once the
> cartridges go out of production those large format printer models
> go from expensive to cheap extremely quickly.

-- 
John Forkosh  ( mailto:  j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )

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#37444

From"28B.I874" <28B.I874@noabzba.net>
Date2023-03-06 08:46 -0500
Message-ID<ELKcndesYYxIc5j5nZ2dnZfqn_udnZ2d@earthlink.com>
In reply to#37441
On 3/6/23 3:44 AM, John Forkosh wrote:
> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
>> 28B.I874 <28B.I874@noabzba.net> wrote:
>>>    Ummm ... larger-format paper IS an issue. Most semi-cheap
>>>    lasers and all-in-ones, (I know HP) can feed 'legal'
>>>    paper. 11x17 and above .... well ... separate large-format
>>>    scanner + large-format printer. That's $$$ no matter how
>>>    you do it. Anything wider than 11" and you'll likely need
>>>    to take a stick to a print shop - or spend kilobucks on
>>>    like a huge 'office' Kyocera laser.
>>
>> I just do multiple scans and stitch the images together manually.
> 
> At the moment, I've got 5,000+ pages to scan from large-format
> paper notebooks. So "multiple scans" per page would be really
> inconvenient. I already have to manually turn the pages, can't
> use autofeed for bound notebooks, and each 152-page notebook
> takes ~2.5hours to scan. Definitely a pain in the elbow.
> 
>> Or I use a digital camera, and say I'll get around to fixing the
>> lens distortion in software one day...
>>
>> I do have a digital A3 scanner on top of a broken
>> photocopier/office-printer, but of course the software refuses to
>> work if the printer part doesn't pass its self-test.
> 
> The Brother MFC-J6920DW does complain about the "printer part"
> every time I power it up, but it's easy to proceed past the warning.
> 
>>>    I saw a sort of 'inkjet' at an archetect's ... it looked
>>>    like a long rectangle. You put BIG sheets of paper, like
>>>    48"x48", into it one sheet at a time and it pulled it
>>>    past the printhead(s?). I rather doubt it was cheap.
>>
>> They're ink-jets, newer models often use UV-curable ink. Once the
>> cartridges go out of production those large format printer models
>> go from expensive to cheap extremely quickly.

   Well, that's "cost of doing business" I suppose ...

   For 5000+ big pages, maybe you should consider a
   decent print shop instead of do-it-yourself. They
   may have a 4x5 digital cam, or even a really large
   format scanner. That you say these are bound books
   is a real problem - can't use a pull-page-thru kind
   of scanner, it'd have to be a huge flatbed.

   If you are a a biz, also consider that you can sometimes
   LEASE equipment like this rather than buying. Somewhere
   I mentioned those big chest-high Kyocera 'office'
   all-in-ones (that WILL do 11x17) ... but few biz ever
   BUY them.

   20 years ago I'd have suggested medium or large format
   Technical Pan, and then get the negs scanned. But they
   don't make that film anymore (and it was B&W).

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#37459

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2023-03-07 08:58 +0100
Message-ID<od7jdjx7l7.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#37444
On 2023-03-06 14:46, 28B.I874 wrote:
> 
>    For 5000+ big pages, maybe you should consider a
>    decent print shop instead of do-it-yourself. They
>    may have a 4x5 digital cam, or even a really large
>    format scanner. That you say these are bound books
>    is a real problem - can't use a pull-page-thru kind
>    of scanner, it'd have to be a huge flatbed.


There are scanners for bound books, even automatic.

I saw a video, long ago, of a bed in V shape, and two cameras above:


  cam           cam


*                   *
    *             *
       *      *
          *

And another glass in V above, to hold the book in between "flat" against 
the V table. Take the photos, lift glass, pass next page. It was fast. 
Maybe moving to next page was manual, I don't remember. Something like 4 
seconds per page.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#37461

FromJohn Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com>
Date2023-03-07 08:36 +0000
Message-ID<tu6t2s$474$1@reader2.panix.com>
In reply to#37459
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> 28B.I874 wrote:
>>  ?? For 5000+ big pages, maybe you should consider a
>>  ?? decent print shop instead of do-it-yourself. They
>>  ?? may have a 4x5 digital cam, or even a really large
>>  ?? format scanner. That you say these are bound books
>>  ?? is a real problem - can't use a pull-page-thru kind
>>  ?? of scanner, it'd have to be a huge flatbed.
> 
> 
> There are scanners for bound books, even automatic.
> I saw a video, long ago, of a bed in V shape, and two cameras above:
>      cam           cam
>    *                   *
>       *             *
>          *      *
>             *
> And another glass in V above, to hold the book in between "flat" against 
> the V table. Take the photos, lift glass, pass next page. It was fast. 
> Maybe moving to next page was manual, I don't remember. Something like 4 
> seconds per page.

Yup, now that you mention it, I also recall coming across
that V-shaped kind of device while googling for alternative
solutions (back in 2015) like you and 28B are suggesting.
But after my really bad experience with that Plustek scanner
(described in an upthread post, but not worth searching for,
just details of "bad experience") I decided to stick with
standard off-the-shelf, run-of-the-mill equipment. And the
Brother MFC-J6920DW both (a)"just works", and (b)cost just
$250 back in 2016, whereas alternatives cost like an
order-of-magnitude more, and I was very wary whether
they'd "just work" with standard PCs and peripherals.
-- 
John Forkosh  ( mailto:  j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )

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#37463

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2023-03-07 11:39 +0100
Message-ID<6sgjdjx7de.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#37461
On 2023-03-07 09:36, John Forkosh wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> 28B.I874 wrote:
>>>   ?? For 5000+ big pages, maybe you should consider a
>>>   ?? decent print shop instead of do-it-yourself. They
>>>   ?? may have a 4x5 digital cam, or even a really large
>>>   ?? format scanner. That you say these are bound books
>>>   ?? is a real problem - can't use a pull-page-thru kind
>>>   ?? of scanner, it'd have to be a huge flatbed.
>>
>>
>> There are scanners for bound books, even automatic.
>> I saw a video, long ago, of a bed in V shape, and two cameras above:
>>       cam           cam
>>     *                   *
>>        *             *
>>           *      *
>>              *
>> And another glass in V above, to hold the book in between "flat" against
>> the V table. Take the photos, lift glass, pass next page. It was fast.
>> Maybe moving to next page was manual, I don't remember. Something like 4
>> seconds per page.
> 
> Yup, now that you mention it, I also recall coming across
> that V-shaped kind of device while googling for alternative
> solutions (back in 2015) like you and 28B are suggesting.
> But after my really bad experience with that Plustek scanner
> (described in an upthread post, but not worth searching for,
> just details of "bad experience") I decided to stick with
> standard off-the-shelf, run-of-the-mill equipment. And the
> Brother MFC-J6920DW both (a)"just works", and (b)cost just
> $250 back in 2016, whereas alternatives cost like an
> order-of-magnitude more, and I was very wary whether
> they'd "just work" with standard PCs and peripherals.

Of course, the scanner I described is likely to be found on a library. 
Someplace with lots of books to scan properly. It is likely to be quite 
expensive.

Googling for "book scanner in V shape"

https://book2net.net/en/produkte/a3-format,archive-scanners,book-scanners,v-shape/falcon/

Has photos.

<https://book2net.net/en/produkte/a1-format,archive-scanners,book-scanners,v-shape/dragon/>

Impressive machine.


<https://www.i2s.fr/en/heritage-digitization/v-shape-book-scanners/copibook-v-shape>

<https://www.i2s.fr/en/heritage-digitization/v-shape-book-scanners>



-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#37477

Fromnot@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Date2023-03-08 08:09 +1000
Message-ID<6407b5fd@news.ausics.net>
In reply to#37463
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> Of course, the scanner I described is likely to be found on a library. 
> Someplace with lots of books to scan properly. It is likely to be quite 
> expensive.

As with most gear sold to such organisations. However in this case
there isn't any particularly special tech behind it. DIY
constructions are relatively easy projects, and you've got a huge
selection of projects to be copied by searching "DIY book scanner"
or just going to this dedicated website:
https://diybookscanner.org/

The Internet Archive even built their own scanner rigs using
off-the-shelf cameras, rather than buying the professional devices:
https://dltj.org/article/internet-archive-scanning-gallery/

Google has/had designs for an automated book scanner online,
although it required a lot of big laser-cut pieces which might be
expensive to have made. It was sort of upside-down, where the
book lies down on top of a triangular frame.

But as I suggested before, for notebooks it may be practical to
just rig up one flat piece of glass that can be lifted up and
sit down on both exposed pages of the notebook's to keep them
flat. Then just have a camera on a tripod over-hanging and
pointing down at the pages, and ideally a remote trigger so you
don't have to touch it to take a photo.

Personally I just do it with the tripod and the camera, without
the glass or the remote trigger, but if you're doing lots then it
would make things easier. Then a full dual-camera, angled frame
rig would make it easier again. I certainly think of those while
I'm fiddling with tensioning pages that won't stay flat.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#37478

Fromnot@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Date2023-03-08 08:13 +1000
Message-ID<6407b6eb@news.ausics.net>
In reply to#37477
Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> But as I suggested before, for notebooks it may be practical to
> just rig up one flat piece of glass that can be lifted up and
> sit down on both exposed pages of the notebook's to keep them
> flat.

Oh, looks like I snipped that bit out of my earlier post before
sending it because I decided I was rambling, so don't bother going
back to look for it.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#37484

FromJohn Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com>
Date2023-03-08 05:42 +0000
Message-ID<tu977l$r3m$1@reader2.panix.com>
In reply to#37477
Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> Of course, the scanner I described is likely to be found on a library. 
>> Someplace with lots of books to scan properly. It is likely to be quite 
>> expensive.
> 
> As with most gear sold to such organisations. However in this case
> there isn't any particularly special tech behind it. DIY
> constructions are relatively easy projects, and you've got a huge
> selection of projects to be copied by searching "DIY book scanner"
> or just going to this dedicated website:
> https://diybookscanner.org/

Sounded interesting, though probably more time/work constructing
a good one than I'd be willing to invest. And the kicker was
clicking that "Get Started" link at the bottom of the page:
"404 Not Found error".

> The Internet Archive even built their own scanner rigs using
> off-the-shelf cameras, rather than buying the professional devices:
> https://dltj.org/article/internet-archive-scanning-gallery/

Well, the second "bullet" item describes Archive's "scribe station",
including two Canon EOS 1Ds Mark II digital cameras,
costing ... $7100 each (though that was apparently in 2006).

> Google has/had designs for an automated book scanner online,
> although it required a lot of big laser-cut pieces which might be
> expensive to have made. It was sort of upside-down, where the
> book lies down on top of a triangular frame.
> 
> But as I suggested before, for notebooks it may be practical to
> just rig up one flat piece of glass that can be lifted up and
> sit down on both exposed pages of the notebook's to keep them
> flat. Then just have a camera on a tripod over-hanging and
> pointing down at the pages, and ideally a remote trigger so you
> don't have to touch it to take a photo.
> 
> Personally I just do it with the tripod and the camera, without
> the glass or the remote trigger, but if you're doing lots then it
> would make things easier. Then a full dual-camera, angled frame
> rig would make it easier again. I certainly think of those while
> I'm fiddling with tensioning pages that won't stay flat.

-- 
John Forkosh  ( mailto:  j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )

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#37485

FromComputer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid>
Date2023-03-08 16:09 +1000
Message-ID<64082685@news.ausics.net>
In reply to#37484
John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> wrote:
> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> Of course, the scanner I described is likely to be found on a library. 
>>> Someplace with lots of books to scan properly. It is likely to be quite 
>>> expensive.
>> 
>> As with most gear sold to such organisations. However in this case
>> there isn't any particularly special tech behind it. DIY
>> constructions are relatively easy projects, and you've got a huge
>> selection of projects to be copied by searching "DIY book scanner"
>> or just going to this dedicated website:
>> https://diybookscanner.org/
> 
> Sounded interesting, though probably more time/work constructing
> a good one than I'd be willing to invest.

Well you see I'd do pretty much anything in preference to scanning
in hundreds (let alone thousands) of pages from books into a flat
bed scanner manually, especially as I always bump something and
mess up the alignment on one page in five when trying to scan from
something like a book. I don't know how that option can be workable
for someone in the first place.

> And the kicker was
> clicking that "Get Started" link at the bottom of the page:
> "404 Not Found error".

Try the "Getting Started" link at the top then:
https://diybookscanner.org/en/intro.html

>> The Internet Archive even built their own scanner rigs using
>> off-the-shelf cameras, rather than buying the professional devices:
>> https://dltj.org/article/internet-archive-scanning-gallery/
> 
> Well, the second "bullet" item describes Archive's "scribe station",
> including two Canon EOS 1Ds Mark II digital cameras,
> costing ... $7100 each (though that was apparently in 2006).

As you already read, that's for the sake of getting 16.7 megapixel
photos in 2006. Surely you've noticed that megapixels have got much
cheaper since then. In fact if you'd got through to the "Getting
Started" page at the DIY website, you'd see that they're using
consumer model Canon cameras because you can run custom firmware on
them easily. At this point you can probably get suitable models
very cheaply second-hand.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#37487

From"28B.I874" <28B.I874@noabzba.net>
Date2023-03-08 01:38 -0500
Message-ID<85ycnQZwKuzisJX5nZ2dnZfqn_adnZ2d@earthlink.com>
In reply to#37485
On 3/8/23 1:09 AM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> wrote:
>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
>>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Of course, the scanner I described is likely to be found on a library.
>>>> Someplace with lots of books to scan properly. It is likely to be quite
>>>> expensive.
>>>
>>> As with most gear sold to such organisations. However in this case
>>> there isn't any particularly special tech behind it. DIY
>>> constructions are relatively easy projects, and you've got a huge
>>> selection of projects to be copied by searching "DIY book scanner"
>>> or just going to this dedicated website:
>>> https://diybookscanner.org/
>>
>> Sounded interesting, though probably more time/work constructing
>> a good one than I'd be willing to invest.
> 
> Well you see I'd do pretty much anything in preference to scanning
> in hundreds (let alone thousands) of pages from books into a flat
> bed scanner manually, especially as I always bump something and
> mess up the alignment on one page in five when trying to scan from
> something like a book. I don't know how that option can be workable
> for someone in the first place.
> 
>> And the kicker was
>> clicking that "Get Started" link at the bottom of the page:
>> "404 Not Found error".
> 
> Try the "Getting Started" link at the top then:
> https://diybookscanner.org/en/intro.html
> 
>>> The Internet Archive even built their own scanner rigs using
>>> off-the-shelf cameras, rather than buying the professional devices:
>>> https://dltj.org/article/internet-archive-scanning-gallery/
>>
>> Well, the second "bullet" item describes Archive's "scribe station",
>> including two Canon EOS 1Ds Mark II digital cameras,
>> costing ... $7100 each (though that was apparently in 2006).
> 
> As you already read, that's for the sake of getting 16.7 megapixel
> photos in 2006. Surely you've noticed that megapixels have got much
> cheaper since then. In fact if you'd got through to the "Getting
> Started" page at the DIY website, you'd see that they're using
> consumer model Canon cameras because you can run custom firmware on
> them easily. At this point you can probably get suitable models
> very cheaply second-hand.

   Canon digital cameras ???

   There ARE "flat-field" lenses intended for copy work.
   No distortion-correction work needed.

   However RESOLUTION may be an issue. Depends on the
   posters source material. Text is easy, but detailed
   artsy pix/drawings are another thing entirely.

   Hasselblad sells 100+ MP digital backs. Ain't cheap
   (sometimes you can rent/lease) but they WILL deliver
   superior product combined with proper lenses.

   Somebody suggested using two good flatbed scanners
   fixed in a "V" formation for the abovementioned
   "bound notebooks". Not the worst idea - and perhaps
   cheaper than the Hassleblad solution depending.

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#37489

FromJohn Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com>
Date2023-03-08 08:25 +0000
Message-ID<tu9gpk$dn7$1@reader2.panix.com>
In reply to#37487
28B.I874 <28B.I874@noabzba.net> wrote:
> <<snip>>
>   Somebody suggested using two good flatbed scanners
>   fixed in a "V" formation for the abovementioned
>   "bound notebooks". Not the worst idea - and perhaps
>   cheaper than the Hassleblad solution depending.

That sounds like a really good idea, which some manufacturer
could produce pretty easily and affordably. The typical
off-the-shelf scanners, that I'm aware of, are too "thick"
to place in an (inverted) V formation, and have borders
around the edges whereby stuff near the spine of a book
or notebook placed on them would be missed. But I'd guess
some easy-for-manufacturers (but maybe not for individuals)
modifications to existing and inexpensive retail scanners
could do the trick. But I'm further guessing there's just
not enough demand for this kind of device.
-- 
John Forkosh  ( mailto:  j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )

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