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Linux upgrade.

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  Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-23 22:21 +0100
    Re: Linux upgrade. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-12-23 22:30 +0100
      Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-24 12:57 +0100
    Re: Linux upgrade. John McCue <jmccue@qball.jmcunx.com> - 2024-12-23 22:04 +0000
      Re: Linux upgrade. Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-23 22:52 +0000
        Re: Linux upgrade. John McCue <jmccue@qball.jmcunx.com> - 2024-12-24 00:23 +0000
          Re: Linux upgrade. Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-24 00:27 +0000
            Re: Linux upgrade. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-12-24 02:08 +0000
              Re: Linux upgrade. Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-24 02:24 +0000
                Re: Linux upgrade. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-12-24 03:04 +0000
                  Re: Linux upgrade. Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-24 05:50 +0000
                  Re: Linux upgrade. Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-24 08:19 +0000
              Re: Linux upgrade. John McCue <jmccue@qball.jmcunx.com> - 2024-12-24 20:05 +0000
      Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-24 14:03 +0100
    Re: Linux upgrade. "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-24 01:31 -0500
      Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-24 15:26 +0100
        Re: Linux upgrade. "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-25 01:14 -0500
          Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-25 12:42 +0100
      Re: Linux upgrade. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-24 19:21 +0000
        Re: Linux upgrade. "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-25 02:15 -0500
          Re: Linux upgrade. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-12-25 21:30 +0000
            Re: Linux upgrade. "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-25 20:54 -0500
    Re: Linux upgrade. not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2024-12-26 07:02 +1000
      Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-25 23:08 +0100
        Re: Linux upgrade. "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-25 21:47 -0500
          Re: Linux upgrade. Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2024-12-26 03:40 +0000
            Re: Linux upgrade. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-26 04:19 +0000
              Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-26 12:57 +0100
              Re: Linux upgrade. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-12-26 14:27 +0100
                Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-26 16:42 +0100
            Re: Linux upgrade. Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-26 08:14 +0000
            Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-26 12:52 +0100
            Re: Linux upgrade. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-12-26 14:04 +0100
          Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-26 12:37 +0100

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#62983 — Linux upgrade.

As part of my christmas tradition, I always upgrade my linux when the 
holiday starts. The reason is that if something goes wrong, I have a long 
time to fix it, without anything work related getting in the way.

Every year, I am equally surprised when things just work. I move my dot 
files, and all application are there, with the settings I'm used to.

Even my compiled programs such as alpine, leafnode and possibly one or two 
more, and my python invoicing application, could just be moved and worked 
right away.

So the upgrade took me 45 minutes, and the only modification I needed to 
do was to update my midnight commander config file, because apparently 
someone in the project decided on a new config format between version 3 
and version 4.

Impressive!

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#62986

On 2024-12-23 22:21, D wrote:
> So the upgrade took me 45 minutes, and the only modification I needed to 
> do was to update my midnight commander config file, because apparently 
> someone in the project decided on a new config format between version 3 
> and version 4.

Version 4 is old. I have 4.8.27, and my distribution is old.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#63011

On Mon, 23 Dec 2024, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> On 2024-12-23 22:21, D wrote:
>> So the upgrade took me 45 minutes, and the only modification I needed to do 
>> was to update my midnight commander config file, because apparently someone 
>> in the project decided on a new config format between version 3 and version 
>> 4.
>
> Version 4 is old. I have 4.8.27, and my distribution is old.

Apologies, I should have been more clear. I have:

GNU Midnight Commander 4.8.30
Built with GLib 2.78.3
Built with S-Lang 2.3.1a with terminfo database
Built with libssh2 1.11.0
With builtin Editor
With subshell support as default
With support for background operations
With mouse support on xterm and Linux console
With support for X11 events
With internationalization support
With multiple codepages support
With ext2fs attributes support
Virtual File Systems:
  cpiofs, tarfs, sfs, extfs, ftpfs, sftpfs
Data types:
  char: 8; int: 32; long: 64; void *: 64; size_t: 64; off_t: 64;.

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#62987

D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> As part of my christmas tradition, I always upgrade my linux
> when the  holiday starts.

Interesting, my yearly tradition is to do multiple full
system backup of my workstation and server this time a year.
Two for "off-site" and a couple for home :)

-- 
csh(1) - "An elegant shell, for a more... civilized age."
                     - Paraphrasing Star Wars

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#62988

On Mon, 23 Dec 2024 22:04:35 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:

> ... my yearly tradition is to do multiple full system backup of
> my workstation and server this time a year.

The only things I consider crucial to back up are my own work. I don’t 
bother backing up OS installations, apart from the contents of /etc.

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#62989

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Dec 2024 22:04:35 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
> 
>> ... my yearly tradition is to do multiple full system backup of
>> my workstation and server this time a year.
> 
> The only things I consider crucial to back up are my own work. I don?t 
> bother backing up OS installations, apart from the contents of /etc.

Yes, that is what I do, backup data, static data dirs with
various OS Config Dirs.

-- 
csh(1) - "An elegant shell, for a more... civilized age."
                     - Paraphrasing Star Wars

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#62990

On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 00:23:43 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 23 Dec 2024 22:04:35 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
>> 
>>> ... my yearly tradition is to do multiple full system backup of my
>>> workstation and server this time a year.
>> 
>> The only things I consider crucial to back up are my own work. I don?t
>> bother backing up OS installations, apart from the contents of /etc.
> 
> Yes, that is what I do, backup data, static data dirs with various OS
> Config Dirs.

And here’s another tip: before modifying anything in /etc, I try to make a 
backup copy with the suffix “-orig” attached. That way, it’s easy to find 
all the places I’ve customized the config, with a simple command like

    find /etc -iname \*-orig

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#62995

On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 00:27:12 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vkcv50$1f4ve$2@dont-email.me>:

> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 00:23:43 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
> 
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 23 Dec 2024 22:04:35 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
>>> 
>>>> ... my yearly tradition is to do multiple full system backup of my
>>>> workstation and server this time a year.
>>> 
>>> The only things I consider crucial to back up are my own work. I don?t
>>> bother backing up OS installations, apart from the contents of /etc.
>> 
>> Yes, that is what I do, backup data, static data dirs with various OS
>> Config Dirs.
> 
> And here’s another tip: before modifying anything in /etc, I try to make
> a backup copy with the suffix “-orig” attached. That way, it’s easy to
> find all the places I’ve customized the config, with a simple command
> like
> 
>     find /etc -iname \*-orig

Or you could:

# mkdir RCS
# ci -w(your username) -l -d (filename)

rcs, the revision control system, is lightweight and easy to handle.  You
can diff your files with rcsdiff.

Beats keeping around "filename-orig", "filename.old",
"filename.notsoold", "filename.thisoneworkedbefore", etc.

(Or, you could use git, but that's overkill for /etc files...)

-- 
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
   OS: Linux 6.12.6 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
   "The cost of feathers has risen... Now even DOWN is up!"

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#62996

On 24 Dec 2024 02:08:42 GMT, vallor wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 00:27:12 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vkcv50$1f4ve$2@dont-email.me>:
> 
>> And here’s another tip: before modifying anything in /etc, I try to
>> make a backup copy with the suffix “-orig” attached. That way, it’s
>> easy to find all the places I’ve customized the config, with a simple
>> command like
>> 
>>     find /etc -iname \*-orig
> 
> Or you could:
> 
> # mkdir RCS ...

Some people use Git. Why be satisfied with half-measures?

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#62997

On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 02:24:37 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vkd614$1gfpo$3@dont-email.me>:

> On 24 Dec 2024 02:08:42 GMT, vallor wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 00:27:12 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vkcv50$1f4ve$2@dont-email.me>:
>> 
>>> And here’s another tip: before modifying anything in /etc, I try to
>>> make a backup copy with the suffix “-orig” attached. That way, it’s
>>> easy to find all the places I’ve customized the config, with a simple
>>> command like
>>> 
>>>     find /etc -iname \*-orig
>> 
>> Or you could:
>> 
>> # mkdir RCS ...
> 
> Some people use Git. Why be satisfied with half-measures?

You snipped out (as you are wont to do):

v] (Or, you could use git, but that's overkill for /etc files...)

rcs isn't a "half-measure" -- it's a simpler measure.  But by all means,
use git:

1) cd /etc
2) git init
3) [...]
4) Profit!

-- 
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
   OS: Linux 6.12.6 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
   "Computers make very fast, very accurate mistakes."

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#62999

On 24 Dec 2024 03:04:29 GMT, vallor wrote:

> rcs isn't a "half-measure" -- it's a simpler measure.

Simpler still is just copying files. Easier to find where changes have 
been made.

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#63005

vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> writes:
> rcs isn't a "half-measure" -- it's a simpler measure.

Obsolete three generations of software ago, more like.

> But by all means, use git:
>
> 1) cd /etc
> 2) git init
> 3) [...]
> 4) Profit!

https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/etckeeper is the common way to do
this in Debian and its derivatives; it automatically commits during
package installs/upgrades.

-- 
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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#63025

vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> wrote:
<snip>
> # mkdir RCS
> # ci -w(your username) -l -d (filename)
> 
> rcs, the revision control system, is lightweight and easy to
> handle.  You can diff your files with rcsdiff.

That is exactly what I do with OS configs.

<snip>

-- 
csh(1) - "An elegant shell, for a more... civilized age."
                     - Paraphrasing Star Wars

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#63012

On Mon, 23 Dec 2024, John McCue wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>> As part of my christmas tradition, I always upgrade my linux
>> when the  holiday starts.
>
> Interesting, my yearly tradition is to do multiple full
> system backup of my workstation and server this time a year.
> Two for "off-site" and a couple for home :)

A wise tradition! In my case, I have an ancient script based on rsync and 
tor, that does daily differentials to an old off site laptop.

I have been toying with the idea of replacing it with restic, but haven't 
yet gotten around to it. Let's see, maybe in 2025. ;)

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#63002

On 12/23/24 4:21 PM, D wrote:
> As part of my christmas tradition, I always upgrade my linux when the 
> holiday starts. The reason is that if something goes wrong, I have a 
> long time to fix it, without anything work related getting in the way.
> 
> Every year, I am equally surprised when things just work. I move my dot 
> files, and all application are there, with the settings I'm used to.
> 
> Even my compiled programs such as alpine, leafnode and possibly one or 
> two more, and my python invoicing application, could just be moved and 
> worked right away.
> 
> So the upgrade took me 45 minutes, and the only modification I needed to 
> do was to update my midnight commander config file, because apparently 
> someone in the project decided on a new config format between version 3 
> and version 4.
> 
> Impressive!


   What ? WHAT ??? An actual LINUX question ???!!!  :-)

   Me, I just generally avoid serious kernel upgrades ...
   just the usual auto-upgrades until I feel it's time
   to jump up two or three whole distro versions. It's
   only 'home use' now, so I'm not so worried about
   Vlad and Xi.

   Alas most of my stuff is Deb based, and WORM was
   NOT encouraging - too 'Canonical' now. DO have
   some Arch/Fedora based boxes though ... may just
   go straight Fedora for awhile ........

   DID love OpenSUSE - but now it's kinda trapped in
   the IBM/RHEL vortex. Don't wanna be an unpaid
   beta-tester for IBM.

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#63018

On Tue, 24 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/23/24 4:21 PM, D wrote:
>> As part of my christmas tradition, I always upgrade my linux when the 
>> holiday starts. The reason is that if something goes wrong, I have a long 
>> time to fix it, without anything work related getting in the way.
>> 
>> Every year, I am equally surprised when things just work. I move my dot 
>> files, and all application are there, with the settings I'm used to.
>> 
>> Even my compiled programs such as alpine, leafnode and possibly one or two 
>> more, and my python invoicing application, could just be moved and worked 
>> right away.
>> 
>> So the upgrade took me 45 minutes, and the only modification I needed to do 
>> was to update my midnight commander config file, because apparently someone 
>> in the project decided on a new config format between version 3 and version 
>> 4.
>> 
>> Impressive!
>
>
>  What ? WHAT ??? An actual LINUX question ???!!!  :-)

Apologies!

>  Me, I just generally avoid serious kernel upgrades ...
>  just the usual auto-upgrades until I feel it's time
>  to jump up two or three whole distro versions. It's
>  only 'home use' now, so I'm not so worried about
>  Vlad and Xi.

Same here + the company web server, but it only has two ports open to the 
net, so nothing to worry about there.

Then I have my colleague who runs some hosting, and I actually have no 
idea what he runs. Since he is responsible, he gets free choice as long as 
it's not windows or kubernetes, and those rules he has followed.

>  Alas most of my stuff is Deb based, and WORM was
>  NOT encouraging - too 'Canonical' now. DO have
>  some Arch/Fedora based boxes though ... may just
>  go straight Fedora for awhile ........
>
>  DID love OpenSUSE - but now it's kinda trapped in
>  the IBM/RHEL vortex. Don't wanna be an unpaid
>  beta-tester for IBM.

Yes, opensuse has served me well for at least a decade if not more. But 
I've heard rumours they will stop with the leap distribution and do some 
kind of rootless, or rolling release stuff _only_. I do not like it! I 
want stability and not sand shifting under my feet.

So if/when they disappear, I'm looking at FreeBSD to replace it, 
alternatively possibly debian or slckware. We'll see!

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#63041

On 12/24/24 9:26 AM, D wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
> 
>> On 12/23/24 4:21 PM, D wrote:
>>> As part of my christmas tradition, I always upgrade my linux when the 
>>> holiday starts. The reason is that if something goes wrong, I have a 
>>> long time to fix it, without anything work related getting in the way.
>>>
>>> Every year, I am equally surprised when things just work. I move my 
>>> dot files, and all application are there, with the settings I'm used to.
>>>
>>> Even my compiled programs such as alpine, leafnode and possibly one 
>>> or two more, and my python invoicing application, could just be moved 
>>> and worked right away.
>>>
>>> So the upgrade took me 45 minutes, and the only modification I needed 
>>> to do was to update my midnight commander config file, because 
>>> apparently someone in the project decided on a new config format 
>>> between version 3 and version 4.
>>>
>>> Impressive!
>>
>>
>>  What ? WHAT ??? An actual LINUX question ???!!!  :-)
> 
> Apologies!
> 
>>  Me, I just generally avoid serious kernel upgrades ...
>>  just the usual auto-upgrades until I feel it's time
>>  to jump up two or three whole distro versions. It's
>>  only 'home use' now, so I'm not so worried about
>>  Vlad and Xi.
> 
> Same here + the company web server, but it only has two ports open to 
> the net, so nothing to worry about there.
> 
> Then I have my colleague who runs some hosting, and I actually have no 
> idea what he runs. Since he is responsible, he gets free choice as long 
> as it's not windows or kubernetes, and those rules he has followed.

   Linux is pretty damned secure - so keeping up with
   the very latest updates (unless it's a busy busy
   outward-facing server) is usually not so critical.
   Kernel 6.x has some added goodies over 4.x, but
   it's not THAT much "improved".

>>  Alas most of my stuff is Deb based, and WORM was
>>  NOT encouraging - too 'Canonical' now. DO have
>>  some Arch/Fedora based boxes though ... may just
>>  go straight Fedora for awhile ........
>>
>>  DID love OpenSUSE - but now it's kinda trapped in
>>  the IBM/RHEL vortex. Don't wanna be an unpaid
>>  beta-tester for IBM.
> 
> Yes, opensuse has served me well for at least a decade if not more. But 
> I've heard rumours they will stop with the leap distribution and do some 
> kind of rootless, or rolling release stuff _only_. I do not like it! I 
> want stability and not sand shifting under my feet.

   There's much to be said for solid 'releases'.

   "Rolling" WORKS of course, but it subtly alters the
   landscape over short time-scales. Updates also use
   a lot of bandwidth - almost the entire distro - for
   even the smallest additions.

   DID get Tumbleweed to work on a Pi4 ... but it
   wasn't very snappy even using lighter desktops.

> So if/when they disappear, I'm looking at FreeBSD to replace it, 
> alternatively possibly debian or slckware. We'll see!

   FreeBSD ain't terrible. Depends on your needs however.
   One of my biggest gripes with the BSDs is that their
   drivers tend to be YEARS behind.

   Despite bragging, never really got OpenBSD to install
   super-clean. It's also kinda too security anal. For
   SOME applications though that may be good.

   DragonFly is OK ... forked from Free4 ... has its own
   odd file system however.

   You MIGHT want to look at OpenIndiana. Again a bit
   odd, but it works.

   In any case, Linux is NOT the alpha and omega of *IX
   systems.

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#63049

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

>> Same here + the company web server, but it only has two ports open to the 
>> net, so nothing to worry about there.
>> 
>> Then I have my colleague who runs some hosting, and I actually have no idea 
>> what he runs. Since he is responsible, he gets free choice as long as it's 
>> not windows or kubernetes, and those rules he has followed.
>
>  Linux is pretty damned secure - so keeping up with
>  the very latest updates (unless it's a busy busy
>  outward-facing server) is usually not so critical.
>  Kernel 6.x has some added goodies over 4.x, but
>  it's not THAT much "improved".

This mirrors my experiences. I've never had any break ins on my servers. This
has always been to limited exposure, rather than me being up to date with the
latest patches. Oh, and also due to the simplicity of what I hosted which means
the limited exposure above.

>>>  Alas most of my stuff is Deb based, and WORM was
>>>  NOT encouraging - too 'Canonical' now. DO have
>>>  some Arch/Fedora based boxes though ... may just
>>>  go straight Fedora for awhile ........
>>> 
>>>  DID love OpenSUSE - but now it's kinda trapped in
>>>  the IBM/RHEL vortex. Don't wanna be an unpaid
>>>  beta-tester for IBM.
>> 
>> Yes, opensuse has served me well for at least a decade if not more. But 
>> I've heard rumours they will stop with the leap distribution and do some 
>> kind of rootless, or rolling release stuff _only_. I do not like it! I want 
>> stability and not sand shifting under my feet.
>
>  There's much to be said for solid 'releases'.

Amen!

>  "Rolling" WORKS of course, but it subtly alters the
>  landscape over short time-scales. Updates also use
>  a lot of bandwidth - almost the entire distro - for
>  even the smallest additions.
>
>  DID get Tumbleweed to work on a Pi4 ... but it
>  wasn't very snappy even using lighter desktops.

I tried to get opensuse to work on my radxa zero, but didn't work. I suspect
something needed to be changed or adapted with the image since the debian I used
in the end, had been massaged by the radxa team.

>> So if/when they disappear, I'm looking at FreeBSD to replace it, 
>> alternatively possibly debian or slckware. We'll see!
>
>  FreeBSD ain't terrible. Depends on your needs however.
>  One of my biggest gripes with the BSDs is that their
>  drivers tend to be YEARS behind.

I imagine it should work fine on VM:s and a standard, older server. I tried it
on a 1 year old Asus laptop and it worked pretty ok.

>  Despite bragging, never really got OpenBSD to install
>  super-clean. It's also kinda too security anal. For
>  SOME applications though that may be good.
>
>  DragonFly is OK ... forked from Free4 ... has its own
>  odd file system however.
>
>  You MIGHT want to look at OpenIndiana. Again a bit
>  odd, but it works.

Woulnd't that be even further behind than FreeBSD?

>  In any case, Linux is NOT the alpha and omega of *IX
>  systems.

This is the truth!

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#63020

On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 01:31:38 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

>    Me, I just generally avoid serious kernel upgrades ...
>    just the usual auto-upgrades until I feel it's time to jump up two or
>    three whole distro versions. It's only 'home use' now, so I'm not so
>    worried about Vlad and Xi.

The Fedora box pulls down kernels frequently and is usually only a minor 
version or two behind the latest. The Ubuntu box is still 6.8.0. They both 
work fine for anything I do.

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#63042

On 12/24/24 2:21 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 01:31:38 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
> 
>>     Me, I just generally avoid serious kernel upgrades ...
>>     just the usual auto-upgrades until I feel it's time to jump up two or
>>     three whole distro versions. It's only 'home use' now, so I'm not so
>>     worried about Vlad and Xi.
> 
> The Fedora box pulls down kernels frequently and is usually only a minor
> version or two behind the latest. The Ubuntu box is still 6.8.0. They both
> work fine for anything I do.

   Zactly ... ordinary upgrades almost always get it done.

   Again though, a busy outwards-facing server, some of
   those point upgrades MAY be valuable.

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