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On 2025-10-04 22:35, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: > Le 28-09-2025, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit : >> On 2025-09-27 17:03, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote: >>> Le 22-09-2025, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> a écrit : >>>> On 2025-09-21 19:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>> On 21/09/2025 18:28, rbowman wrote: >>>>>> I'm not fond of kings but an enlightened ruler might not be worse than a >>>>>> bunch of self-serving politicians doing the will of the highest bidder. >>>>> >>>>> TBH there is very little difference. >>>>> The only thing about kings is that you can't vote them out, They need to >>>>> be murdered. >>>> >>>> Yes, they can be voted out. >>>> >>>> King Alfonso XIII of Spain was voted out, the republicans won the vote. >>>> A bit controversial this point, though, but the fact is that he >>>> consequently fled the country voluntarily. There were no hordes trying >>>> to kill him or whatever, he left more or less silently. >>>> >>>> The murdering came when the military and the right wing made war to >>>> remove the II Republic and put a dictatorship. >>>> >>>> >>>> I think there was another instance previously of an ousted king or >>>> queen, but I don't recall the details. No murdering, either. >>> >>> And in a country close to yours, a revolution was done in a very good >>> way. Of course, I'm not speaking about France in which I'm happy to live >>> without a king but I can't say that the way the revolution was done was >>> good. I'm speaking about your other neighbour which should inspire more >>> people. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnation_Revolution :-) > > Yep. It's really impressive. > >>> >>> What I mean is: even if most revolutions are spreading blood, it's not a >>> requirement. >> >> I don't know if The Spanish Transition is a revolution or not. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_transition_to_democracy >> >> We went from a dictatorship to a democracy without bullets. Arguably the >> transition had defects we are still suffering, but still, no bullets. We >> had terrorism, yes, with too many deaths. But not all directly related >> to The Transition. > > OK, so before answering that, I have to say two thing to avoid any > misunderstanding. > > First, I'm neither an historian nor a specialist. So when I say that I > never heard about something it just means that: it can have happened > without my knowledge. I'm interested in history, and I can see were all > of the far right who pretend history are wrong because they know only a > part of the history. So I have some knowledge and, of course, I knew > what happened in Spain, but I'm not an historian. There are not hidden > words pretending that anyone claiming that if someone pretend that > something I never heard of happened is a liar. And I'm only speaking > about my visions: historians can see things differently. > > Second, when I say that something is different, there is no value > judgment here. I don't mean one is better than the other, I'm only > saying that there are different things. Fair enough :-) > > Keep that in mind because to start with, I consider that what happened > in Spain is very different of what happened in Portugal. In Portugal, > there was a dictator and people throw him away without (almost) no > violence. In Spain, when the dictator died, the void was filled with a > better way to manage things, so, for me, it's not the same thing. True. > It was great too, because there is nothing obvious with that. For > example, when Stalin died, he was replaced by Khrouchtchev, so the > dictature continued. And, to my knowledge, the replacement from one > dictator to another one is fairly well spread when I never heard about > another example of a democracy put in place after the death of a > dictator. I'm not speaking of the death of Hitler because the USA and > USSR took control of Germany, so that's why what happened in Spain is > unique. > > And that has been done in a very good and inspiring way. But still, I > have difficulties to consider it a revolution. What happened in Spain > and in Portugal were, to my knowledge and to my vision of things, unique > in their own ways. In Portugal, it was a evolution because they decided > to change things at the time were they considered it must happen. In > Spain, they took advantage of the events to change things and, for me, > it's something different. Yes. There are groups in the modern left that criticize the Transition, because there was no cleansing process. For instance, the police stayed in their posts, and their behaviour included torture even after officially being a democracy, maybe even when we joined the EU. There are efforts now to find the people killed by Francoists, be it during the war or after it, interred in unnamed mass graves. The right wing despises these efforts. The right wing doesn't, to this day, recognize that they performed a coup d'etat against the democracy, with Franco. > And on that part, I wasn't alive when the French revolution took place > but from what I know about it, it was ugly and it lasted for decades. So > if I consider it to be a good thing I don't consider it to have been > done in a good way. I'm not saying I would have done better, I wasn't > born so it's easy to look at it with a critical eye today, so I'm not > too harsh for that reason, but I can't be happy about everything that > happened for obvious reasons neither. > Bug in Thunderbird. This blank space has been growing while I typed. It was bigger, I erased part of it. Perhaps my answer here was erased and I don't remember what it was. Right. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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Re: Ousting a king Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-09-27 15:03 +0000
Re: Ousting a king "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-09-28 14:24 +0200
Re: Ousting a king Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> - 2025-10-04 20:35 +0000
Re: Ousting a king "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-05 22:14 +0200
Re: Ousting a king Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-05 10:34 +0100
Re: Ousting a king "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-05 22:02 +0200
Re: Ousting a king Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2025-10-08 18:24 +0100
Re: Ousting a king "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-10-10 13:40 +0200
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