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IDE's

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  IDE's Bill M <wpmccormick@just_about_everywhere.com> - 2012-01-07 14:51 -0600
    Re: IDE's "Ersek, Laszlo" <lacos@caesar.elte.hu> - 2012-01-07 22:06 +0100
      Re: IDE's Bill M <wpmccormick@just_about_everywhere.com> - 2012-01-08 10:12 -0600
        Re: IDE's "Ersek, Laszlo" <lacos@caesar.elte.hu> - 2012-01-08 18:12 +0100
          Re: IDE's Bill M <wpmccormick@just_about_everywhere.com> - 2012-01-08 21:19 -0600
          Re: IDE's Bill M <wpmccormick@just_about_everywhere.com> - 2012-01-08 21:45 -0600
            Re: IDE's "Ersek, Laszlo" <lacos@caesar.elte.hu> - 2012-01-09 11:55 +0100
              Re: IDE's Bill M <wpmccormick@just_about_everywhere.com> - 2012-01-09 13:29 -0600
                Re: IDE's Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-01-09 19:47 +0000
              Re: IDE's David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2012-01-09 20:30 +0100
        Re: IDE's Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2012-01-08 18:49 +0000
          Re: IDE's Bill M <wpmccormick@just_about_everywhere.com> - 2012-01-08 21:53 -0600
        Re: IDE's Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-01-09 15:15 +0000
          Re: IDE's ufo22940268@gmail.com - 2012-02-18 06:22 -0800

#363 — IDE's

I'm developing some applications to run on Debian Squeeze, where there 
is a module that can only be loaded on the target hardware platform. The 
target hardware is not really adequate as a full development platform, 
as it doesn't a lot of flash disk space. So far, I have been getting by 
without the use of any fancy IDE and using well placed printf's.

But as the number of applications grow and the system takes more shape, 
I can see how a good IDE would be nice, but I need one that I can run a 
more robust development platform, connecting to the target hardware 
platform to debug applications.

Is there such an IDE that can do this without having a lot of overhead 
on the target hardware platform?

Thanks!

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#364

On Sat, 7 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:

> Is there such an IDE that can do this without having a lot of overhead 
> on the target hardware platform?

"man gdbserver". Any IDE or standalone debugger frontend that can work 
with gdb will do (eg. emacs or ddd).

Laszlo

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#367

Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/7/2012 3:06 PM:
> On Sat, 7 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>
>> Is there such an IDE that can do this without having a lot of overhead
>> on the target hardware platform?
>
> "man gdbserver". Any IDE or standalone debugger frontend that can work
> with gdb will do (eg. emacs or ddd).
>
> Laszlo
Would you recommend Eclipse for this?

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#369

On Sun, 8 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:

> Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/7/2012 3:06 PM:
>> On Sat, 7 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>> 
>>> Is there such an IDE that can do this without having a lot of overhead
>>> on the target hardware platform?
>> 
>> "man gdbserver". Any IDE or standalone debugger frontend that can work
>> with gdb will do (eg. emacs or ddd).
>> 
>> Laszlo

> Would you recommend Eclipse for this?

Risking to bring the wrath of various groups down on my head, I wouldn't 
recommend Eclipse for anything. Hm, well, the source tarball might be a 
good fit for compression benchmarks.

Laszlo

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#374

Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/8/2012 11:12 AM:
> On Sun, 8 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>
>> Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/7/2012 3:06 PM:
>>> On Sat, 7 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there such an IDE that can do this without having a lot of overhead
>>>> on the target hardware platform?
>>>
>>> "man gdbserver". Any IDE or standalone debugger frontend that can work
>>> with gdb will do (eg. emacs or ddd).
>>>
>>> Laszlo
>
>> Would you recommend Eclipse for this?
>
> Risking to bring the wrath of various groups down on my head, I wouldn't
> recommend Eclipse for anything. Hm, well, the source tarball might be a
> good fit for compression benchmarks.
>
> Laszlo
Is there some IDE you would recommend?

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#375

Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/8/2012 11:12 AM:
> On Sun, 8 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>
>> Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/7/2012 3:06 PM:
>>> On Sat, 7 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there such an IDE that can do this without having a lot of overhead
>>>> on the target hardware platform?
>>>
>>> "man gdbserver". Any IDE or standalone debugger frontend that can work
>>> with gdb will do (eg. emacs or ddd).
>>>
>>> Laszlo
>
>> Would you recommend Eclipse for this?
>
> Risking to bring the wrath of various groups down on my head, I wouldn't
> recommend Eclipse for anything. Hm, well, the source tarball might be a
> good fit for compression benchmarks.
>
> Laszlo
So you wouldn't recommend Eclipse because it's a little on the bulky 
side? Or does it have other, less than redeeming, qualities?

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#377

On Sun, 8 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:

> So you wouldn't recommend Eclipse because it's a little on the bulky 
> side? Or does it have other, less than redeeming, qualities?

Just last night I've heard Eclipse is perfect for Java, and flaky for C. 
When I used it before, it occurred with proprietary plugins (proprietary 
language, proprietary visual designer), and it was about the worst UI 
experience of my life. Everything was wrong about it; the uninterruptible 
builds, the missing dependency tracking (or discovery) for incremental 
builds, the horrible allocation of screen real estate, losing recent 
changes when saving buffers to files (!!!) during background parsing, and 
so on.

I also used it briefly for pure Java builds & source browsing, and it was 
unbearably slow.

You might want check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_integrated_development_environments

Laszlo

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#379

Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/9/2012 4:55 AM:
> On Sun, 8 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>
>> So you wouldn't recommend Eclipse because it's a little on the bulky
>> side? Or does it have other, less than redeeming, qualities?
>
> Just last night I've heard Eclipse is perfect for Java, and flaky for C.
> When I used it before, it occurred with proprietary plugins (proprietary
> language, proprietary visual designer), and it was about the worst UI
> experience of my life. Everything was wrong about it; the
> uninterruptible builds, the missing dependency tracking (or discovery)
> for incremental builds, the horrible allocation of screen real estate,
> losing recent changes when saving buffers to files (!!!) during
> background parsing, and so on.
>
> I also used it briefly for pure Java builds & source browsing, and it
> was unbearably slow.
>
> You might want check this out:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_integrated_development_environments
>
>
> Laszlo

I'm curious as to why ddd is not on this list.

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#381

On 2012-01-09, Bill M <wpmccormick@just_about_everywhere.com> wrote:
> Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/9/2012 4:55 AM:
>> On Sun, 8 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>>
>> You might want check this out:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_integrated_development_environments
>>
>>
>> Laszlo
>
> I'm curious as to why ddd is not on this list.

Probably because a debugger front end falls short of an integrated development
environment.

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#380

On 09/01/12 11:55, Ersek, Laszlo wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>
>> So you wouldn't recommend Eclipse because it's a little on the bulky
>> side? Or does it have other, less than redeeming, qualities?
>
> Just last night I've heard Eclipse is perfect for Java, and flaky for C.
> When I used it before, it occurred with proprietary plugins (proprietary
> language, proprietary visual designer), and it was about the worst UI
> experience of my life. Everything was wrong about it; the
> uninterruptible builds, the missing dependency tracking (or discovery)
> for incremental builds, the horrible allocation of screen real estate,
> losing recent changes when saving buffers to files (!!!) during
> background parsing, and so on.
>
> I also used it briefly for pure Java builds & source browsing, and it
> was unbearably slow.
>
> You might want check this out:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_integrated_development_environments
>
>
> Laszlo

Be wary of judging Eclipse by the quality (or lack thereof) of 
proprietary plugins - or even of open source plugins.

If you haven't tried Eclipse recently, then it may be time to go back to 
it.  I used to find it very big, slow and bulky, with little clear idea 
of what was going on.  These days it is much more efficient (partly 
because PC's are faster, partly because JVM's are faster, but also in 
fact because Eclipse is faster).  I have used a number of versions, and 
have seen significant improvements and extra features with each major 
version - from about 3.4 onwards it has been quite usable.  I use it 
mostly for C, with some C++, some Python, and some LaTeX.

Builds are interruptible, dependency tracking is okay (with support for 
parallel make in recent versions), parsing is much faster and more 
reliable than with older versions, and the screen real estate is 
reasonably configurable.  It is not perfect, of course - personally I 
usually prefer my own makefiles to Eclipse project manager (I get better 
dependency tracking, and faster incremental builds that way).  But as 
IDEs go, it is good.

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#372

On 2012-01-08, Bill M <wpmccormick@just_about_everywhere.com> wrote:
> Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/7/2012 3:06 PM:
>> On Sat, 7 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>>
>>> Is there such an IDE that can do this without having a lot of overhead
>>> on the target hardware platform?
>>
>> "man gdbserver". Any IDE or standalone debugger frontend that can work
>> with gdb will do (eg. emacs or ddd).
>>
>> Laszlo
> Would you recommend Eclipse for this?

Eclipse is a front end and has nothing to do with what runs on the
target platform or whether you're reduced to using printf for debugging or have
real breakpoint debugging.

The right answer was given: the GNU project has a debugger called gdb, which
implements remote debugging via a scaled down version called gdbserver, which
has the process-loading and instrumentation pieces of gdb and can communicate
with another gdb over a serial line or network.  This other gdb is where you
load all the executable images and their symbols (so that these things don't
have to be present on the target system, which may be a small embedded device
with no space for those things!) In your words "without having a lot of
overhead on the target hardware platform".

If your target can support gdbserver, you should be able to remotely debug with
gdb, using local copies of the executable material, with symbols, source code,
etc.

Given that, you can use whatever front-end for gdb that you like.
If Eclipse provides one, you should be able to use it.

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#376

Kaz Kylheku wrote, On 1/8/2012 12:49 PM:
> On 2012-01-08, Bill M<wpmccormick@just_about_everywhere.com>  wrote:
>> Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/7/2012 3:06 PM:
>>> On Sat, 7 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there such an IDE that can do this without having a lot of overhead
>>>> on the target hardware platform?
>>>
>>> "man gdbserver". Any IDE or standalone debugger frontend that can work
>>> with gdb will do (eg. emacs or ddd).
>>>
>>> Laszlo
>> Would you recommend Eclipse for this?
>
> Eclipse is a front end and has nothing to do with what runs on the
> target platform or whether you're reduced to using printf for debugging or have
> real breakpoint debugging.
>
> The right answer was given: the GNU project has a debugger called gdb, which
> implements remote debugging via a scaled down version called gdbserver, which
> has the process-loading and instrumentation pieces of gdb and can communicate
> with another gdb over a serial line or network.  This other gdb is where you
> load all the executable images and their symbols (so that these things don't
> have to be present on the target system, which may be a small embedded device
> with no space for those things!) In your words "without having a lot of
> overhead on the target hardware platform".
>
> If your target can support gdbserver, you should be able to remotely debug with
> gdb, using local copies of the executable material, with symbols, source code,
> etc.
>
> Given that, you can use whatever front-end for gdb that you like.
> If Eclipse provides one, you should be able to use it.

Obviously gdb and gdbserver must be part of the solution. But, as the 
subject of this thread suggests, any and all answers that fit into the 
IDE catagory are answers.

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#378

On 2012-01-08, Bill M <wpmccormick@just_about_everywhere.com> wrote:
> Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/7/2012 3:06 PM:
>> On Sat, 7 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
>>
>>> Is there such an IDE that can do this without having a lot of
>>> overhead on the target hardware platform?
>>
>> "man gdbserver". Any IDE or standalone debugger frontend that can
>> work with gdb will do (eg. emacs or ddd).

> Would you recommend Eclipse for this?

It's purely a matter of personal preference.  I work with somebody who
loves eclipse.  I can't stand it, and use emacs.  Though I very rarely
use a debugger, when I do it's via the emacs gdb frontend or just on
the command-line.  Years and years ago I used DDD occasionally and
found it worked OK.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! The SAME WAVE keeps
                                  at               coming in and COLLAPSING
                              gmail.com            like a rayon MUU-MUU ...

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#431

On Monday, January 9, 2012 11:15:25 PM UTC+8, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2012-01-08, Bill M <wpmccormick@just_about_everywhere.com> wrote:
> > Ersek, Laszlo wrote, On 1/7/2012 3:06 PM:
> >> On Sat, 7 Jan 2012, Bill M wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is there such an IDE that can do this without having a lot of
> >>> overhead on the target hardware platform?
> >>
> >> "man gdbserver". Any IDE or standalone debugger frontend that can
> >> work with gdb will do (eg. emacs or ddd).
> 
> > Would you recommend Eclipse for this?
> 
> It's purely a matter of personal preference.  I work with somebody who
> loves eclipse.  I can't stand it, and use emacs.  Though I very rarely
> use a debugger, when I do it's via the emacs gdb frontend or just on
> the command-line.  Years and years ago I used DDD occasionally and
> found it worked OK.
> 
> -- 
> Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! The SAME WAVE keeps
>                                   at               coming in and COLLAPSING
>                               gmail.com            like a rayon MUU-MUU ...

Why do you rarely use a debugger. Did you print a log when it's hard to find what causes the error. Thx.

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