Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #273563

Re: "Goodbye to Apple"

From	Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
Newsgroups	comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject	Re: "Goodbye to Apple"
Date	2014-12-30 08:02 -0700
Message-ID	<D0C80C81.45862%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> (permalink)
References	(4 earlier) <20141228091703.761@usenet.drumscum.be> <D0C59A19.4572A%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> <20141228194617.97@usenet.drumscum.be> <D0C5C09C.45742%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> <20141230132859.403@usenet.drumscum.be>

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On 12/30/14, 5:37 AM, in article 20141230132859.403@usenet.drumscum.be,
"TomB" <tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> wrote:

... 
>>>>> No 'blame the user' deflections at all. The real point is that
>>>>> one has to jump through many hoops to use Apple software outside
>>>>> the way Apple intended it, possibly causing a number of
>>>>> detrimental side effects.
>>>> 
>>>> Can you give some examples? I use an iMac... what hoops do you
>>>> think I have to jump through to use it as I wish?
>>> 
>>> Obviously I cannot know what *you* wish, but if I have to speak for
>>> myself:
>>> 
>>> * the ability to keep multiple and completely independent music
>>> libraries
>> 
>> I can do that on OS X. I choose not to... play lists and the like
>> work well for me, but I *can* do this.
>> 
>> iTunes is not the only music player on OS X.
> 
> I was talking about the included tools and the interaction with
> iDevices, obviously. When connecting e.g. an iPhone with a foreign
> music library to an iMac, it absolutely insist on wiping one of the
> libraries completely (cannot remember which - it's been a while since
> I used iStuff...). That's completely and utter insane if you ask me.

I would love to hear more about this.

>>> * the ability to move the entire system to other hardware, e.g. when
>>>   the computer dies (I did this more than once with GNU/Linux
>>>   installations)
>> 
>> I have done this multiple times with OS X.
> 
> I'm not saying you cannot do this to other Apple hardware. I meant any
> hardware one might have around, as a quick disaster recovery option.

So you meant you cannot run OS X on non-Apple hardware. Um, OK.

>> I *did* run into a problem moving from an old G4 to an Intel
>> processor... turns out there was a bug with the migration tool when
>> used with older hardware. Not a big deal - I moved it manually and
>> all worked fine. When I ran into the issue, though, Apple offered to
>> send someone to my house to do it for me (for free) if I wanted.
>> 
>> I guess when I do this the OS, which is the same, is not technically
>> moved... but all applications, settings, users, extensions, etc. are
>> moved.  What else would you need moved?
> 
> The entire HDD (or HDD image), with everything in it, including custom
> stuff (on OSX this might be stuff installed with fink, or any other
> means the 'system' isn't aware of).

I believe all of that is backed up and migrated with the Migration
Assistant. 
...



-- 
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* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs?     <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Mint KDE working with folders:    <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files:          <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help:                    <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation:      <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mavericks / Pages 5.1:            <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison:   <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>

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"Goodbye to Apple" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-27 08:01 -0600
  Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-27 09:07 -0500
    Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-27 08:24 -0600
      Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2014-12-27 19:10 +0000
        Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-27 13:16 -0600
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2014-12-27 19:29 +0000
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-12-27 16:05 -0500
              Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-27 19:58 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-29 10:40 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-29 14:20 -0600
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-27 19:57 -0600
              Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-29 10:42 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-12-29 12:22 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-29 11:42 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-29 11:33 -0700
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-12-30 11:25 -0500
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-29 10:31 -0600
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-12-29 12:21 -0500
              Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-29 10:22 -0700
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-29 10:21 -0700
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-29 14:23 -0600
              Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-29 22:13 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-30 10:05 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-30 09:20 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-30 10:23 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-30 18:09 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-30 11:40 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-30 21:44 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-30 16:14 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-30 22:30 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-30 16:34 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-30 22:42 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-12-30 19:50 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-30 19:52 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-31 10:04 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-12-31 05:51 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-31 06:46 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-31 10:36 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-31 10:26 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-30 19:38 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Slimer <slvrslmr@lv.c> - 2014-12-30 21:56 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-30 20:45 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-31 11:10 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-30 10:42 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-30 09:43 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Slimer <slvrslmr@lv.c> - 2014-12-30 13:18 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-30 21:37 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-30 12:51 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-30 16:12 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Slimer <slvrslmr@lv.c> - 2014-12-30 16:25 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-30 14:54 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-30 21:35 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-30 15:37 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-12-30 15:42 -0500
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2014-12-29 13:04 -0500
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-29 11:38 -0700
        Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-12-27 16:03 -0500
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-27 20:00 -0600
  "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-27 06:13 -0800
    Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2014-12-27 19:13 +0000
      Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-27 19:10 -0800
        Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Ron House <rhouse@smartchat.net.au> - 2014-12-28 16:01 +1000
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-28 04:43 -0800
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Ron House <rhouse@smartchat.net.au> - 2014-12-29 20:47 +1000
              Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-29 03:54 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Ron House <rhouse@smartchat.net.au> - 2014-12-29 23:14 +1000
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-29 10:25 -0800
              Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-29 11:20 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-29 14:51 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-29 23:56 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-29 15:31 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-30 07:04 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-30 05:55 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-12-30 09:17 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-30 10:09 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-30 10:47 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-30 18:07 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-30 11:43 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-30 12:05 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-30 12:36 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Slimer <slvrslmr@lv.c> - 2014-12-30 15:40 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-30 13:47 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Slimer <slvrslmr@lv.c> - 2014-12-30 13:25 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2014-12-30 13:52 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Slimer <slvrslmr@lv.c> - 2014-12-30 14:00 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-30 10:43 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-30 14:01 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2014-12-30 15:12 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-30 21:33 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-30 12:36 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2014-12-30 15:40 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-30 16:05 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Slimer <slvrslmr@lv.c> - 2014-12-30 17:15 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" "Ezekiel" <zeke@nosuchemail.com> - 2014-12-30 17:21 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-30 14:49 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-30 14:46 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Slimer <slvrslmr@lv.c> - 2014-12-30 16:02 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Slimer <slvrslmr@lv.c> - 2014-12-30 13:15 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-30 10:33 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2014-12-30 14:27 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2014-12-30 11:36 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-30 15:06 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-30 14:48 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-30 14:04 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-30 14:47 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-30 12:54 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-30 22:09 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-30 21:59 +0100
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-28 04:45 -0800
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-29 06:59 -0600
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-29 15:03 -0800
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2014-12-30 11:23 -0500
        Re: "Goodbye to Apple" TomB <tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> - 2014-12-28 08:20 +0000
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Goblin <bytes4free@gmail.com> - 2014-12-28 02:22 -0800
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Tattoo Vampire <sitting@this.computer> - 2014-12-28 10:22 -0500
              Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-12-29 06:10 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Tattoo Vampire <sitting@this.computer> - 2014-12-29 08:20 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2014-12-29 13:45 +0000
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Tattoo Vampire <sitting@this.computer> - 2014-12-30 07:55 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-12-29 10:06 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Slimer <slvrslmr@lv.c> - 2014-12-29 10:16 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-29 10:21 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-29 10:06 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2014-12-29 09:22 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-29 11:49 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-12-29 13:18 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-29 11:39 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-29 13:04 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2014-12-29 13:50 +0000
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Peter Köhlmann <peter-koehlmann@t-online.de> - 2014-12-29 23:39 +0100
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Tattoo Vampire <sitting@this.computer> - 2014-12-30 07:58 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2014-12-30 13:32 +0000
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2014-12-30 09:15 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-29 11:23 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-29 10:35 -0700
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-28 11:28 -0700
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-28 07:05 -0800
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-28 10:43 -0500
              Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-28 10:06 -0600
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-28 10:27 -0500
          Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-28 11:29 -0700
            Re: "Goodbye to Apple" TomB <tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> - 2014-12-28 18:51 +0000
              Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-28 12:54 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-28 11:27 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-28 13:33 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-28 12:52 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-28 14:19 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" charlescroyden3@gmail.com - 2014-12-28 13:23 -0800
              Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-28 15:57 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-28 15:20 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-28 14:35 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-28 14:29 -0700
              Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-28 14:13 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" TomB <tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 12:37 +0000
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-30 08:08 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-30 06:54 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-30 10:05 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" TomB <tommy.bongaerts@gmail.com> - 2014-12-30 21:46 +0000
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> - 2014-12-30 14:20 -0800
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" 	flatfish+++ <phlatphish@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-30 18:42 -0500
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-30 08:02 -0700
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-30 09:42 -0600
                Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-30 08:58 -0700
      Re: "Goodbye to Apple" JEDIDIAH <jedi@nomad.mishnet> - 2014-12-29 11:18 -0600
        Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-29 10:36 -0700
  Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> - 2014-12-27 08:27 -0600
    Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Nobody <nobody@invalid.com> - 2014-12-27 19:14 +0000
      Re: "Goodbye to Apple" chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2014-12-29 11:39 -0600
        Re: "Goodbye to Apple" Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2014-12-29 11:32 -0700

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