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Re: Snit Caught Lying Once Again.

Date 2026-05-08 17:53 -0400
Subject Re: Snit Caught Lying Once Again.
Newsgroups alt.computer.workshop, comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.sys.mac.advocacy
References (1 earlier) <10tjhge$2hmhi$5@dont-email.me> <69fd6584$1$18$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com> <10tk0p2$2m7cd$1@dont-email.me> <69fd8cea$0$25$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com> <XnsB446A7AD7FA9FHT1@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>
From CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge>
Message-ID <69fe5b54$0$18$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com> (permalink)

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 2026-05-08 4:29 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
> Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com>
> news:69fd8cea$0$25$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com Fri, 08 May 2026 07:12:42
> GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
> 
>> On May 7, 2026 at 11:44:49 PM MST, "Alan" wrote
>> <10tk0p2$2m7cd$1@dont-email.me>:
>>
>>> On 2026-05-07 21:24, Brock McNuggets wrote:
>>>> On May 7, 2026 at 7:24:13 PM MST, "Alan" wrote
>>>> <10tjhge$2hmhi$5@dont-email.me>:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2026-05-05 16:08, Brock McNuggets wrote:
>>>>>> On May 5, 2026 at 3:54:12 PM MST, "Moshe Fishman" wrote
>>>>>> <MPG.44643f23a85e95dc98972c@usnews.blocknews.net>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://usenet.sandman.net/pages/snit_pdflies
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://chatgpt.com/share/69fa77ff-c524-83ea-9a07-3ead39376409
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> - The “Snit PDF forgery” page is not reliable evidence –
>>>>>> it’s an adversarial write-up from a long-running feud, built
>>>>>> mostly on selective posts and interpretation of PDFs.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is utterly reliable.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was the one who uncovered your forgery.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Main problems:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Biased source: one side arguing a case, not neutral analysis
>>>>>> * No independent verification: no chain of custody, no third-party
>>>>>> validation * Weak technical claims: PDF metadata, fonts, timestamps
>>>>>> are not proof of forgery
>>>>>> * Logical flaws: circular reasoning and shifting burden of proof
>>>>>> * Cherry-picking: ignores alternative explanations and
>>>>>> counterarguments
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wayback links only prove a file existed at a certain time – not
>>>>>> who created or altered it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bottom line:
>>>>>> There’s no solid proof of forgery here. At best it raises
>>>>>> questions; it doesn’t establish conclusions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Mackay posted a PDF.
>>>>>
>>>>> You took that PDF, altered it, then posted it on your website
>>>>> claiming it was still Steve's original.
>>>>>
>>>>> You were trying to create a "gotcha" moment by taking the IP address
>>>>> is original showed, and overlaying with the same information
>>>>> deliberately in a different font. So that you could "prove" that he
>>>>> was lying.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only you didn't know that the original IP address could be retrieved
>>>>> from beneath your alteration...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...and the number was no different.
>>>>>
>>>>> The solid proof is that the only one who would benefit by making
>>>>> people believe Steve had changed the IP...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...would be you.
>>>>
>>>> You claim:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Mackay posted a PDF,
>>>
>>> Because he did.
>>
>> OK. Perhaps true but no evidence shown. If I recall correctly, and based
>> on Sandman's trolling page I skimmed, it was an email of some sort. I do
>> see where Sandman hilariously uses the WayBackMachine as his evidence
>> when elsewhere he has insisted the WayBackMachine saying he had faulty
>> CSS is not valid. It clearly showed he used:
>>
>>      <div style="padding: 3px; align: center;">
>>
>> So why is the WayBackMachine not valid for that but somehow a magic
>> source of truth merely for quoting what someone had on their site
>> (something which is not in question as far as I know).
>>
>> Mackay apparently had a number of different PDFs on his site... or at
>> least Sandman claims that!
>>
>>>> 2) Someone "forged" a PDF by having the same IP being on top of it.
>>>
>>> That was you.
>>
>> Not true and does not even make sense.
>>>
>>>> 3) They sued OmniGraffle (which is not for that).
>>>
>>> I never claimed anything about OmniGraffle.
>>
>> Ah, that was Sandman who made that up:
>> https://usenet.sandman.net/pages/PDFforgery
>>
>> If you are going to use his lies you might as well try to know what they
>> are.
>> :)
>>
>>>> That makes no sense.
>>>>
>>>> But even if they did, how would a the same text on top of the text
>>>> help them? A layer on top of the text which said the same? Is that
>>>> what you mean?
>>>
>>> Because the argument they were trying to make was that the IP address
>>> was forged in the original, and you wanted to "discover" that.
>>
>> If the same IP was over itself how does that show it is a forged IP?
>>
>>> Your aim was to discredit the original.
>>
>> Speak for yourself, not others. I have no such aim.
>>
>> My aim here is to note how insane your accusation is and show you are
>> trolling me over something you claim happened in 2004, and have fun
>> showing you do not even know your own accusation! You know, like your
>> ignorance of the OmniGraffle part of it. But your logic error, discussed
>> below, was more fun.
>>
>>>>
>>>> And you were the mastermind who uncovered if but only after Sandman
>>>> did? Or what?
>>>>
>>>> Seriously, I have vague memories of this nonsense from 2004 but moved
>>>> on LONG ago. Not sure why you are still stuck there.
>>>
>>> I thought you didn't remember it at all.
>>>
>>> Interesting
>>
>> You're clearly playing games here. This was an ongoing trolling bit of
>> nonsense from folks in COLA for some time. I do not recall all who --
>> knew it was Sandman and Carroll but did not even recall you were a part
>> of it. Don't care. But I do have vague meaningless memories of it.
>>
>> So why are you hung up on an unsupported accusation from 2004 that did
>> not even involve you? Heck, did not involve me, either, other than being
>> the target of trolling.
>>
>> But note you have not shown a single quote or MID or shred of evidence
>> against me. And you will not.
> 
> I'm tired of that bullshit excuse of yours. So, I'm going to show everyone
> a nice quote from you with MID and then the proof that you were lying. I'd
> very much like to see how you try to weasel out of this one:
> 
> From: Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.workshop
> Subject: Re: Ha! Ads be gone!
> Date: 18 Aug 2020 17:06:20 GMT
> Organization: Sourthern Nevada Institute of Technology
> Message-ID: <hq2g4c...@mid.individual.net>
> References: <op.0oxuv7shwdg98l@glass>
> <XnsAC17C66BDB815HT1@4uMkH0FFER6s72gSy7J8N4B67.Mht3WTC373bt67J31gn>
> <hpjh75F...@mid.individual.net>
> <XnsAC1D794DE5AD5HT1@889n4Sx8GWE.MNnkz50hZNVS.fh0SYyRp>
> 
> On Aug 18, 2020 at 8:49:01 AM MST, "Gremlin" <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>>> David has asked you to check it against phone book urls he shared
>>> with you.
>   
> This is a direct lie from you. He did no such thing.
> 
> *** end copy
> 
> a direct lie from me, right? That he did no such thing, right? That's what
> you wrote, right, bud?
> 
> So, how do you explain this:
> Message-ID: <9KMYG.136546$hs5.63426@fx05.ams1>
> From: David_B <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org>
> Message-ID: <9KMYG.136546$hs5.63426@fx05.ams1>
> X-Complaints-To: abuse@blocknews.net
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:19:33 UTC
> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:19:32 +0100
> 
>> I am well aware that those who seek to attack do so out of their own
>> weaknesses and insecurities. Even with those I disagree with, say
>> Gremlin and Carroll, I try to note good things about them... and am
>> sincere when I do so. And even when I am not nice in responding to
>> trolling I am honest, and I try to not sink to their level.
> 
> Perhaps you can match the number you have with the businesses you can
> read about here?
> 
> https://www.yellowpages.com/johnson-city-tn/computer-stores
> 
> Message-ID: <hphkj5Fkie0U3@mid.individual.net>
> From: Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.workshop
> Subject: Re: WOW! Snit was really hitting the gluebag this weekend !!
> Date: 12 Aug 2020 07:38:13 GMT
> Message-ID: <hphkj5Fkie0U3@mid.individual.net>
> References: <MPG.399afb30dee85d4b989691@nntp.aioe.org>
> <XaMYG.135634$Ai5.61414@fx30.ams1> <hphicvFkie0U1@mid.individual.net>
> <9KMYG.136546$hs5.63426@fx05.ams1>
> 
>> Perhaps you can match the number you have with the businesses you can
>> read about here?
>>
>> https://www.yellowpages.com/johnson-city-tn/computer-stores
> 
> Not there.
> 
> Message-ID: <XJQYG.264806$dTb.89649@fx41.ams1>
> From: David_B <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org>
> X-Complaints-To: abuse@blocknews.net
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:52:23 UTC
> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:52:23 +0100
> 
> On 12/08/2020 08:38, Snit wrote:
>> On Aug 12, 2020 at 12:19:32 AM MST, "David_B" <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org>
>> wrote:
>>> Perhaps you can match the number you have with the businesses you can
>>> read about here?
>>>
>>> https://www.yellowpages.com/johnson-city-tn/computer-stores
>>
>> Not there.
> 
> OK. Thanks for looking.
> 
> Please try here:- https://www.yellowpages.com/kingsport-tn/computer-stores
> 
> Message-ID: <hpio33Fkie0U14@mid.individual.net>
> From: Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.workshop
> Subject: Re: WOW! Snit was really hitting the gluebag this weekend !!
> Date: 12 Aug 2020 17:44:03 GMT
> Message-ID: <hpio33Fkie0U14@mid.individual.net>
> References: <MPG.399afb30dee85d4b989691@nntp.aioe.org>
> <hphkj5Fkie0U3@mid.individual.net> <XJQYG.264806$dTb.89649@fx41.ams1>
> <F7RYG.69875$8b2.3773@fx07.ams1>
> 
> On Aug 12, 2020 at 5:19:49 AM MST, "David_B" <DavidB@nomail.afraid.org>
> wrote:
> 
>>> OK. Thanks for looking.
>>>
>>> Please try here:-
>>> https://www.yellowpages.com/kingsport-tn/computer-stores
>>
>> 121 results!  Sorry there are so many to check.
> 
> Not a big deal -- just five pages. Did a search for the last four
> digits... no matches.
> 
> *** end share
> 
> Would you like to see a copy of the most generic as possible 'apology' to
> nobody specifically concerning this that you wrote? I don't care if you do
> or not, I'm sharing it too. <G>
> 
> From: Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-
> 10,alt.computer.workshop,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> ,talk.politics.guns
> Subject: Re: Ha! Ads be gone!
> Date: 27 Aug 2020 16:00:24 GMT
> Organization: Sourthern Nevada Institute of Technology
> Message-ID: <hqq3ko...@mid.individual.net>
> References: <op.0oxuv7shwdg98l@glass>
> <XnsAC1D794DE5AD5HT1@889n4Sx8GWE.MNnkz50hZNVS.fh0SYyRp>
> <hq2g4c...@mid.individual.net>
> <XnsAC1EBCDBAAD5EHT1@0ydV5Cg6OLqWT90unHZ34QVT6yqk8KnKb.nd>
> 
> I did incorrectly say he had not asked me to "research" or whatever
> -- not considering such a quick look to really count. But from your
> perspective, I suppose, where doing a quick search on a list is not
> completely trivial, it counts. Sorry for my error on that.
> 
> ***
> 
> Need any more MIDs or quotes to show what a liar you are, bud? I've got
> tons of them. <G>
> 
> Fuck it, I'm in a sharing mood. So, I'm going to share a chat you had with
> Apd over my comments concerning the floodbot and coding in general. For
> those who don't know why I have such a problem with you.
> 
> First, we'll start with this post:
> 
> Message-ID: <rco0an$2fj$1@apd.eternal-september.org>
> From: "Apd" <not@all.invalid>
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.workshop,alt.2600
> Subject: Re: Ping: SNIT - Can you help with this? (was - Discord spam
> bot?) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 17:02:20 +0100
> Organization: ad hoc
> Lines: 32
> Message-ID: <rco0an$2fj$1@apd.eternal-september.org>
> References: <5eb897f6.20813375@istillthinkyousuckatthis.com>
> <nm8uG.60584$_u3.46641@fx15.ams1> <M9duG.283624$Xk.106760@fx46.iad>
> <dcajbf5uupc11m012gd8g3lhjum26br01e@4ax.com>
> <5eb9aaba.91153156@istillthinkyousuckatthis.com>
> <2bcjbftgpbc87utl85q7tcgfqifu0bar42@4ax.com>
> <5eb9b5cc.93987078@istillthinkyousuckatthis.com>
> <5ebabb49.95392359@istillthinkyousuckatthis.com>
> <cRjuG.142916$xV.52220@fx29.ams1>
> <XnsABBB3E7B14CB8HT1@cv40pa2k83n4lW661EB2igwB7T5C5100SR32r.01xgMdbspTJ45ZPB
> APui> <9sAuG.72323$vu3.19412@fx21.ams1> <hi0bbfFgvvhU1@mid.individual.net>
> <OQEuG.43321$wn3.4338@fx36.ams1>
> <XnsABBD1D814D05DHT1@DxtA1R8p9C89N.q7CRqg>
> <XnsABDE37AE038ABHT1@HHBBpXUm053.y616suD5Ccbu.g32pu7d>
> <Wk4GG.31189$o16.15958@fx14.ams1> <XnsABDF2D4255359HT1@R9wCnNq03.wp>
> <hkv1hmFgvrpU9@mid.individual.net>
> <XnsABE3303B9947DHT1@XXqx6Asi5bL2viHcUglZ2heL72.Ik98aioxvx58w20xQ.Jl7>
> Injection-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2020 16:02:31 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info:
> apd.eternal-september.org;
> posting-host="390b4206c8be54d3993aca276015eb24"; 	logging-data="2547";
> mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";
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> X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
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> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org alt.computer.workshop:49105
> alt.2600:84899
> 
> "Diesel" wrote:
>> Again, to clarify for FTR and Apd, it's not a little white lie that
>> everybody tells. This was a fully concocted bullshit story that he
>> actually spent more than a few seconds to write up. I'm not going to
>> let that slide as a little white lie we all tell from time to time.
>> I'm not calling Snit a liar for stupid silly shit, I'm calling him
>> out as a liar for the story he wrote:
>>
>> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=159159190100
> 
> Agree with what you say.
> 
>> While i'm not surprised that neither of you think it's a big deal,
>> because he hasn't focused his lies on either of you,
> 
> I'm not saying that here. Obviously it's important for you and it's
> your business to challenge what's said about you. I havent't been
> saying it's no big deal because it's not me and I have backed your
> comment about code, as you know.
> 
>> I do consider it
>> a bit more than a 'your hair looks great honey!" kind of a lie.
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
>> And I don't appreciate, what appeared to me, to downplay what he
>> did here, by either of you.
> 
> Certainly not downplaying what he said to you. Sorry for giving that
> impression.
> 
> Message-ID: <rbvkfm$vrq$2@apd.eternal-september.org>
> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=159549554500
> From: "Apd" <not@all.invalid>
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.workshop
> Subject: Re: FORGERY
> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 11:11:58 +0100
> 
> "Snit" wrote:
>> On 6/11/20 5:19 PM, Apd wrote:
>>> "Steve Carroll - fretwizzer" wrote:
>>>> [...] you can see he's doing the same thing with Diesel
>>>> right now.
>>>
>>> Yup.
>>
>> Diesel is playing a very immature game. He insists he meant some code
>> other than the code to Carroll's Usenet flood bot. OK. Maybe I missed
>> the context -- but if so then what code did he mean. He never says. That
>> shoots down his own argument.
> 
> He was speaking about code in general, not any particular piece of
> software. He said as much.
> 
>> [...] So if I ever directly said Diesel *WAS* helping Carroll I
>> rescind that.
> 
> You should perhaps reply to a post of his with that.
> 
>> [...] We all make mistakes. I simply cannot see why it matters so
>> much to Diesel.
> 
> None of us like to be accused of doing what we are not.
> 
> *** end evidence submission 1 :)
> 
> Message-ID: <rc7i2q$an4$1@apd.eternal-september.org>
> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=159549611800
> 
> From: "Apd" <not@all.invalid>
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.workshop
> Subject: Re: FORGERY
> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 11:20:02 +0100
> Message-ID: <rc7i2q$an4$1@apd.eternal-september.org>
> 
> "Snit" wrote:
>> Diesel wrote:
>>> Snit wrote:
>>>> On 6/12/20 3:11 AM, Apd wrote:
>>>>> He was speaking about code in general, not any particular piece
>>>>> of software. He said as much.
>>>>
>>>> I have agreed he may have changed topics away from Carroll's
>>>> Usenet flood bot. He does tend to wander a lot as he posts.
>>>
>>> You *didn't* understand what Apd wrote, or, you did, and are trying
>>> to twist it into something else entirely. Which is it?
>>
>> It is my understanding he said you changed topics away from Carroll's
>> flood bot code to code in general. If he disagrees he can tell me.
> 
> No I didn't say he changed topics. The talk about code in general was
> directly related to the topic of the bot code itself.
> 
> For the record, I've know Diesel a long time and while we've had our
> run-ins and disagreements, I believe him when he says he has no access
> to the flood-bot code. Even if you'd not made the accusation and thus
> he'd not have reason to make a denial I'd still believe he has no
> access because of what he's been writing about the thing. If I were a
> gambling man I'd place a very large bet on him having no involvement.
> 
> ** end of evidence submission 2
> 
> Message-ID: <rcbqfm$pj4$1@apd.eternal-september.org>
> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=159549668500
> 
> From: "Apd" <not@all.invalid>
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.workshop
> Subject: Re: FORGERY
> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 02:08:02 +0100
> Message-ID: <rcbqfm$pj4$1@apd.eternal-september.org>
> 
> "Snit" wrote:
>> Apd wrote:
>>> "Snit" wrote:
>>>> Diesel wrote:
>>>>> Snit wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/12/20 3:11 AM, Apd wrote:
>>>>>>> He was speaking about code in general, not any particular piece
>>>>>>> of software. He said as much.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have agreed he may have changed topics away from Carroll's
>>>>>> Usenet flood bot. He does tend to wander a lot as he posts.
>>>>>
>>>>> You *didn't* understand what Apd wrote, or, you did, and are trying
>>>>> to twist it into something else entirely. Which is it?
>>>>
>>>> It is my understanding he said you changed topics away from Carroll's
>>>> flood bot code to code in general. If he disagrees he can tell me.
>>>
>>> No I didn't say he changed topics. The talk about code in general was
>>> directly related to the topic of the bot code itself.
>>
>> How?
> 
> You were talking about the output the flood-bot generates. You said
> one had to see the code. Diesel said you don't need to see the source
> code to "determine what the program most likely is, if the programs
> output can be sampled". He then gave a 'not-seeing-the-source-code'
> example of how a program disassembly, despite looking nothing like its
> source, will reveal what the program is doing.
> 
> I would probably have used a different example to do with examining
> the output. However, what he wrote was all in context and there was no
> topic change or implication of having the flood-bot source.
> 
> See Diesel's post:
> <XnsAB6E44E6AFE1AHT1@ZdS859K14.7p1JRyU90Zyd>
> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158278349300
> 
> ** end of evidence submission 3
> 
> Message-ID: <rccv08$qch$1@apd.eternal-september.org>
> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=159549688000
> 
> From: "Apd" <not@all.invalid>
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.workshop
> Subject: Re: FORGERY
> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 12:31:14 +0100
> Organization: ad hoc
> Message-ID: <rccv08$qch$1@apd.eternal-september.org>
> 
> "Snit" wrote:
>> On 6/16/20 6:08 PM, Apd wrote:
>>> "Snit" wrote:
>>>> Apd wrote:
>>>>> No I didn't say he changed topics. The talk about code in general was
>>>>> directly related to the topic of the bot code itself.
>>>>
>>>> How?
>>>
>>> You were talking about the output the flood-bot generates. You said
>>> one had to see the code. Diesel said you don't need to see the source
>>> code to "determine what the program most likely is, if the programs
>>> output can be sampled". He then gave a 'not-seeing-the-source-code'
>>> example of how a program disassembly, despite looking nothing like
>>> its source, will reveal what the program is doing.
>>
>> And example that was not relevant to the topic (assuming he did not have
>> the executable program). That is what I think happened, too... he just
>> moved from saying what he could tell about Carroll's flood bot code to
>> speaking about general methods even ones that were not relevant.
> 
> It was relevant in that it was an example of being able to discover
> things about code (the bot code or any other code) without having the
> original source.
> 
>>> I would probably have used a different example to do with examining
>>> the output. However, what he wrote was all in context and there was no
>>> topic change or implication of having the flood-bot source.
>>
>> But if he was not sticking to the topic of the bot as I was, as I was,
>> then he changed the topic to not be just about the bot and its code.
> 
> It was relevant to the topic which was not changed.
> 
>>> See Diesel's post:
>>> <XnsAB6E44E6AFE1AHT1@ZdS859K14.7p1JRyU90Zyd>
>>> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158278349300
>>
>> He split things up a bit there. Here it is with more complete context:
> 
> You've posted that several times already. The complete context is in
> the link I gave which is his reply to you and includes this text
> (yours) and more.
> 
>>    <hbjcp6F4eckU1@mid.individual.net>
>>      -----
>>      I will grant that it seems like an obvious "next step" to
>>      have the bot break apart sentences and respond to
>>      keywords, but that is more my thing that Carroll's (I do
>>      it with my chat bot). So if I were to make such a bot,
>>      yes, I would want it to do that... but does Carroll even
>>      want it to? I think the main purpose is Google seeding...
>>      and it does that well.
>>
>>      Without knowing more of the purpose we cannot say if the
>>      output shows the code to be good or not. One has to see
>>      the code to know that.
>>      -----
>>
>> I am CLEARLY speaking about Carroll's Usenet flood bot and that code
>> alone. No other. I am being specific.
> 
> Yes, and you are saying the code rather than the output has to be seen
> in order to say if the code is up to scratch.
> 
>> Diesel responded with (in part) -- the post you pointed to:
> 
> Before that, and in response to you saying the code has to be seen, he
> wrote:
> 
> "One doesn't have to see original source code to be able to determine
>   what the program most likely is, if the programs output can be
>   sampled".
> 
> Then he provided the example of not seeing the source...
> 
>>    <XnsAB6E44E6AFE1AHT1@ZdS859K14.7p1JRyU90Zyd>
>>      -----
>>      Do you think when you disassemble something that you're
>>      provided the original source code that was
>>      compiled/assembled by the author? You aren't, what you're
>>      given looks nothing like the original source code, but it
>>      still tells you *everything* about the program.
>>      -----
> 
> ....which is an example of determining what the program does without
> having the source code.
> 
>> Assuming Diesel did not have the executable to disassemble, he is NOT
>> speaking of of the topic I was: Carroll's Usenet flood bot. He has
>> changed the topic.
> 
> The topic is the same and what he says is a response to you saying the
> code has to be seen.
> 
> ** end of evidence submission 4
> 
> Message-ID: <rce2o7$1000$1@gioia.aioe.org>
> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=159549710300
> 
> From: "Apd" <not@all.invalid>
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.workshop
> Subject: Re: FORGERY
> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2020 22:40:26 +0100
> Message-ID: <rce2o7$1000$1@gioia.aioe.org>
> 
> "Snit" wrote:
>> Apd wrote:
>>> "Snit" wrote:
>>>> On 6/16/20 6:08 PM, Apd wrote:
>>>>> You were talking about the output the flood-bot generates. You said
>>>>> one had to see the code. Diesel said you don't need to see the
>>>>> source code to "determine what the program most likely is, if the
>>>>> program's output can be sampled". He then gave a 'not-seeing-the-
>>>>> source-code' example of how a program disassembly, despite looking
>>>>> nothing like its source, will reveal what the program is doing.
>>>>
>>>> And example that was not relevant to the topic (assuming he did not
>>>> have the executable program). That is what I think happened, too...
>>>> he just moved from saying what he could tell about Carroll's flood
>>>> bot code to speaking about general methods even ones that were not
>>>> relevant.
>>>
>>> It was relevant in that it was an example of being able to discover
>>> things about code (the bot code or any other code) without having the
>>> original source.
>>
>> Specificity, at least in part, with having the executable to
>> disassemble. Sure. Diesel was quite clear on that. In reference to
>> the bot code I did not think he had the executable, but his comments
>> suggested otherwise.
> 
> They didn't suggest that to me. And there's no reason to think there's
> an executable. It's more likely to be a script.
> 
>> Why else bring up the executable in reference to Carroll's bot?
> 
> As an analysis example.
> 
>> I think he just went off topic and wanted to brag a bit about what he
>> thought I would not know. Now while I might not be able to disassemble
>> code I do understand the basic concept.
>>
>>>>> I would probably have used a different example to do with examining
>>>>> the output. However, what he wrote was all in context and there was
>>>>> no topic change or implication of having the flood-bot source.
>>>>
>>>> But if he was not sticking to the topic of the bot as I was, as I
>>>> was, then he changed the topic to not be just about the bot and its
>>>> code.
>>>
>>> It was relevant to the topic which was not changed.
>>
>> The topic of Carroll's flood bot code. That was what I was speaking
>> of.
> 
> I know.
> 
>> Maybe the whole misunderstanding is he missed that? Not really that
>> important to me but clearly it is to him.
> 
> I don't believe he misunderstood.
> 
>>>>> See Diesel's post:
>>>>> <XnsAB6E44E6AFE1AHT1@ZdS859K14.7p1JRyU90Zyd>
>>>>> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158278349300
>>>>
>>>> He split things up a bit there. Here it is with more complete
>>>> context:
>>>
>>> You've posted that several times already. The complete context is in
>>> the link I gave which is his reply to you and includes this text
>>> (yours) and more.
>>
>> My point if he snipped my comments and that may have led to him not
>> seeing
>> the context.
> 
> I saw no snippage. He commented on all you quoted and more.
> 
>>>> <hbjcp6F4eckU1@mid.individual.net>
>>>> -----
>>>> I will grant that it seems like an obvious "next step" to
>>>> have the bot break apart sentences and respond to
>>>> keywords, but that is more my thing that Carroll's (I do
>>>> it with my chat bot). So if I were to make such a bot,
>>>> yes, I would want it to do that... but does Carroll even
>>>> want it to? I think the main purpose is Google seeding...
>>>> and it does that well.
>>>>
>>>> Without knowing more of the purpose we cannot say if the
>>>> output shows the code to be good or not. One has to see
>>>> the code to know that.
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>> I am CLEARLY speaking about Carroll's Usenet flood bot and that code
>>>> alone. No other. I am being specific.
>>>
>>> Yes, and you are saying the code rather than the output has to be
>>> seen in order to say if the code is up to scratch.
>>
>> Close. One needs more then JUST the output for that specific code. One
>> must know the goals. If one does not know the goals one cannot know if
>> the output reaches those goals or how well or how poorly it does so.
>>
>> But, sure, if you know the goals you can speak to how well it works to
>> match them. And if you have the code or even the executable you can
>> learn more. I think we all agree on that. Maybe not.
> 
> I'll accept knowing the goal(s) is one consideration.
> 
>> But the focus by me was solely on Carroll's flood bot. With that we
>> can infer the goals:
>>
>> * Google seeding
>> * Carroll playing victim
>> * Carroll trolling me
>> * Carroll manipulating others to argue with me
>> * Carroll controlling conversations and pushing discord.
> 
> Substitute "someone" for "Carroll".
> 
>> I listed others elsewhere. And on those I think his bot is rather
>> successful. If those are the goals then it works.
>>
>> If the goals are otherwise then perhaps it does not.
>>
>>>> Diesel responded with (in part) -- the post you pointed to:
>>>
>>> Before that, and in response to you saying the code has to be seen,
>>> he wrote:
>>
>> Wait: what quote where I said the code had to be seen?
> 
> The quoted text in this very post where you said:
> "One has to see the code to know that".
> 
>>> "One doesn't have to see original source code to be able to determine
>>>   what the program most likely is, if the programs output can be
>>>   sampled".
>>>
>>> Then he provided the example of not seeing the source...
>>
>> Where he spoke of disassembling the code... with the context being in
>> response to me speaking of Carroll's flood bot code.
>>
>> One cannot disassemble code one does not have the executable for, as
>> far as I know.
> 
> Correct. It was an example of seeing how something works without having
> the original source code.
> 
>>>> <XnsAB6E44E6AFE1AHT1@ZdS859K14.7p1JRyU90Zyd>
>>>> -----
>>>> Do you think when you disassemble something that you're
>>>> provided the original source code that was
>>>> compiled/assembled by the author? You aren't, what you're
>>>> given looks nothing like the original source code, but it
>>>> still tells you *everything* about the program.
>>>> -----
>>>
>>> ...which is an example of determining what the program does without
>>> having the source code.
>>
>> Specifically in response to Carroll's code. And disassembly.
> 
> Just as an example of analysis.
> 
>>> The topic is the same and what he says is a response to you saying
>>> the code has to be seen.
>>
>> Remember I was speaking of Carroll's bot code. Nothing else.
> 
> Yep, but he addressed your point about needing to see the code. How
> well he addressed it is another matter.
> 
> ** end of evidence submission5
> 
> Message-ID: <rcfmha$rjs$1@apd.eternal-september.org>
> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=159549737900
> 
> From: "Apd" <not@all.invalid>
> Newsgroups: alt.computer.workshop
> Subject: Re: FORGERY
> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 13:26:18 +0100
> Message-ID: <rcfmha$rjs$1@apd.eternal-september.org>
> References: <hkv1hpFgvrpU15@mid.individual.net>
> <rce2o7$1000$1@gioia.aioe.org> <hkvjrpFknq3U1@mid.individual.net> "Snit"
> wrote:
>> On 6/17/20 2:40 PM, Apd wrote:
>>> "Snit" wrote:
> [...]
> 
>> I *would* like to hear from Diesel and you and others on any RELEVANT
>> analysis of Carroll's bot code. What can we tell from it (I have
>> written some about that).
> 
> I haven't done any, other than to note the text is copied from other
> posts usually with name changes, and probably wont.
> 
>>> I don't believe he misunderstood.
>>
>> Fair enough. I have said my piece. We can disagree.
> 
> I'll leave it at that.
> 
>> But if you agree "someone" has those goals -- fine. If you think the
>> goals are otherwise, that is also fine. I am curious as to what you
>> think the goals are and how well you think the bot meets those goals.
> 
> I see no point to it apart from annoying people who use Google Groups,
> like Carroll does. That's something that makes you a suspect. It doesn't
> really meet that goal since he is able to work around it. Most people
> can't filter in GG.
> 
>>>> Remember I was speaking of Carroll's bot code. Nothing else.
>>>
>>> Yep, but he addressed your point about needing to see the code. How
>>> well he addressed it is another matter.
>>
>> Right: I think he has been clear he does not have the code. I accept
>> there is no evidence he does (if the misunderstanding I speak of above
>> is true, or something akin to it, his comments in relation to it are
>> not evidence of him having the code).
> 
> I've snipped most of your comprehensive reply where you've explained
> why the context appeared different to you and other matters. I won't
> argue about it but there's enough there for Diesel to get his teeth
> into if he wishes.
> 
> ***
> 
> I did tell you that my client saves posts, entire threads, and all of my
> replies, right, bud? Well, now you know. :)
> 
> I am looking forward to your effort to spin a response to this. It should
> be greatly amusing.

Great job. There is no way for Snit Brock McNuggers Michael Glasser 
Prescott Parasite and Computer Guy to defend this behaviour, but you 
know that whether with socks, a barrage of lies or manipulation, he'll try.

-- 
CrudeSausage
M4 MacBook Air

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                Re: Snit Caught Lying Once Again. Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 05:30 +0000
                Re: Snit Caught Lying Once Again. Gremlin <nobody@haph.org> - 2026-05-08 08:02 +0000
                Re: Snit Caught Lying Once Again. Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 08:36 +0000
                Re: Snit Caught Lying Once Again. Gremlin <nobody@haph.org> - 2026-05-08 20:29 +0000
                Re: Snit Caught Lying Once Again. Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 21:04 +0000
                Re: Snit Caught Lying Once Again. chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-05 20:07 -0500
                Re: Snit Caught Lying Once Again. Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-06 02:12 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-05-07 19:20 -0700
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 04:17 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-05-07 23:50 -0700
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 07:28 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-05-08 14:01 -0700
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 21:36 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 07:33 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-05-08 14:01 -0700
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-08 21:36 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-05 20:58 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-05-05 13:59 -0700
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-05 21:06 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-05-05 14:17 -0700
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <Brock.McNuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-05 21:29 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2026-05-05 14:44 -0700
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-05 22:43 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Moshe Fishman <copykat4@insite.net> - 2026-05-05 18:56 -0400
                Re: Imagine this Moshe Fishman <copykat4@insite.net> - 2026-05-05 18:57 -0400
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-05 23:01 +0000
                Re: Imagine this CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-05-05 18:40 -0400
                Re: Imagine this Moshe Fishman <copykat4@insite.net> - 2026-05-05 18:55 -0400
                Re: Imagine this pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2026-05-05 23:07 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-05 23:09 +0000
                Re: Imagine this pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2026-05-06 20:38 +0000
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-06 21:05 +0000
                Re: Imagine this chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-06 16:21 -0500
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-06 22:12 +0000
                Re: Imagine this CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> - 2026-05-06 19:03 -0400
                Re: Imagine this Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> - 2026-05-06 23:05 +0000
                Re: Imagine this pothead <pothead@snakebite.com> - 2026-05-06 20:28 +0000
                Re: Imagine this "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-05-04 20:40 -0400
                Re: Imagine this chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2026-05-03 09:06 -0500
                Re: Imagine this "Joel W. Crump" <joelcrump@gmail.com> - 2026-05-03 14:27 -0400
      macOS terminals (was Re: Imagine this) John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-05-02 15:58 +0200
        Re: macOS terminals (was Re: Imagine this) Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-05-02 14:15 -0400
  Re: Imagine this John Bokma <contact@johnbokma.com> - 2026-05-02 14:33 +0200

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