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Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol

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  Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2023-12-09 15:06 +0000
    Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2023-12-09 16:15 +0100
      Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2023-12-09 15:38 +0000
        Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2023-12-09 13:08 -0500
          Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2023-12-09 19:02 +0000
      Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2023-12-09 13:02 -0500
    Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2023-12-09 15:19 +0000
      Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2023-12-09 13:06 -0500
      Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2023-12-10 11:50 +1300
        Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Andrew <andrew@spam.net> - 2023-12-10 04:44 +0000
          Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2023-12-10 17:49 +1300
            Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2023-12-10 11:00 +0100
          Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2023-12-10 08:20 -0500
            Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol "Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2023-12-11 12:31 +0100
        Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2023-12-12 09:35 +1300
          Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> - 2023-12-14 16:54 +1300
            Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> - 2023-12-14 06:33 -0800
              Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2023-12-14 14:55 +0000
                Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> - 2023-12-14 10:11 -0500
                  Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> - 2023-12-14 17:52 -0400
    Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol Wally J <walterjones@invalid.nospam> - 2023-12-09 15:26 -0400

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#125652 — Re: Beeper Mini: Latest Android app to emulate iMessage protocol

Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
> On Dec 8, 2023 at 7:12:02?PM EST, "Alan Browne" <bitbucket@blackhole.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > https://finance.yahoo.com/news/app-gives-android-users-ability-092001890.html
> > 
> > Beeper Mini reverse engineers iMessage's protocol's to register non
> > Apple phones on the Apple iCloud data base.
> > 
> > Reverse engineering a protocol is not illegal in the US and Canada.
> > 
> > I'm less sure that using such to "register" a non Apple device's phone
> > number on the Apple servers would not violate Apple's terms of service.
> > To be seen.
> 
> As expected, Apple has already killed this. Did anyone REALLY think Apple
> would permit this? 

  Do have any reference/proof for this? (I didn't see any such thing in
the article, nor in the original Business Insider article.)
  
  The (Android) app is still on the Google Play website [1] [2]. I
downloaded and installed it, so the app itself is not (yet) 'killed'.

  So *what* exactly *did* Apple 'kill'?

[1] 'Beeper Mini: Chat With iPhones'
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.beeper.ima>

[2] For some reason I couldn't find it in the Play Store app, but that
sometimes happens with somewhat ambiguous 'names'.

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#125682

On 09.12.23 16:06, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> The (Android) app is still on the Google Play website [1] [2]. I
> downloaded and installed it, so the app itself is not (yet) 'killed'.

Do you feel better now?

-- 
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

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#125755

Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
> On 09.12.23 16:06, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > The (Android) app is still on the Google Play website [1] [2]. I
> > downloaded and installed it, so the app itself is not (yet) 'killed'.
> 
> Do you feel better now?

  Not really! I've a totally useless (for me) app on my phone, polluting
my Apps screen (well, the last page of it)! :-)

  I think I'll keep it till the dust has settled down. (As I mentioned,
I couldn't care less about this app or iMessage in general. It's a
non-issue in the real world.)

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#126094

On 2023-12-09 10:38, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
>> On 09.12.23 16:06, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> The (Android) app is still on the Google Play website [1] [2]. I
>>> downloaded and installed it, so the app itself is not (yet) 'killed'.
>>
>> Do you feel better now?
> 
>    Not really! I've a totally useless (for me) app on my phone, polluting
> my Apps screen (well, the last page of it)! :-)
> 
>    I think I'll keep it till the dust has settled down. (As I mentioned,
> I couldn't care less about this app or iMessage in general. It's a
> non-issue in the real world.)

It may be a non-issue in -your- world, but in the real world there are 
Android users who would want this sort of ability.

-- 
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

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#126137

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2023-12-09 10:38, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
> >> On 09.12.23 16:06, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> >>> The (Android) app is still on the Google Play website [1] [2]. I
> >>> downloaded and installed it, so the app itself is not (yet) 'killed'.
> >>
> >> Do you feel better now?
> > 
> >    Not really! I've a totally useless (for me) app on my phone, polluting
> > my Apps screen (well, the last page of it)! :-)
> > 
> >    I think I'll keep it till the dust has settled down. (As I mentioned,
> > I couldn't care less about this app or iMessage in general. It's a
> > non-issue in the real world.)
> 
> It may be a non-issue in -your- world, but in the real world there are 
> Android users who would want this sort of ability.

  As I've indicated before- and others have also mentioned - in this
case "the real world" is somewhat sarcastic wording for "anywhere
*except* the US (and possibly NA)".

  For 'the real world', this whole issue is as silly as having vendor
specific *and* exclusive, e-mail, web, NetNews, telephony, surface mail,
you name it.

  Yes, it's a pity that there isn't one formal (de jure) IM standard
(yet). But the de facto one is surely better than clinging to a vendor
exclusive implementation which cannot communicate with the vast majority
of the rest of the world.

  It's fine to stay in your iMessage bubble, as long as you realize that
it *is* a bubble.

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#126089

On 2023-12-09 10:15, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> On 09.12.23 16:06, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>> The (Android) app is still on the Google Play website [1] [2]. I
>> downloaded and installed it, so the app itself is not (yet) 'killed'.
> 
> Do you feel better now?

It bothers you that Mr. Slootweg is 100x smarter than you are, huh?

-- 
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

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#125695

Frank Slootweg wrote:

> Tyrone wrote:
>
>> As expected, Apple has already killed this. Did anyone REALLY think Apple
>> would permit this?
> 
>    Do have any reference/proof for this? (I didn't see any such thing in
> the article, nor in the original Business Insider article.)

<https://www.androidpolice.com/beeper-mini-outage-b/>

<https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/08/apple-cuts-off-beeper-minis-access-after-launch-of-service-that-brought-imessage-to-android/>

>    So *what* exactly *did* Apple 'kill'?

At a rough guess, Apple have initially blocked Beeper's IPs from their 
firewall?

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#126091

On 2023-12-09 10:19, Andy Burns wrote:
> Frank Slootweg wrote:
> 
>> Tyrone wrote:
>>
>>> As expected, Apple has already killed this. Did anyone REALLY think 
>>> Apple
>>> would permit this?
>>
>>    Do have any reference/proof for this? (I didn't see any such thing in
>> the article, nor in the original Business Insider article.)
> 
> <https://www.androidpolice.com/beeper-mini-outage-b/>
> 
> <https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/08/apple-cuts-off-beeper-minis-access-after-launch-of-service-that-brought-imessage-to-android/>
> 
>>    So *what* exactly *did* Apple 'kill'?
> 
> At a rough guess, Apple have initially blocked Beeper's IPs from their 
> firewall?

No need.

I believe Apple can "interrogate" any device that registers with it (or 
attempts to) and quickly determine if it is an Apple device.

So while the young chap (16 years old) who developed the core of Beeper 
Mini was clever in figuring out how to get non-Apple devices to 
"register" on Apple's servers, Apple took their time, figured out what 
he was doing and added an extra layer of verification.

I'm surprised Apple didn't have such before.  It's not a security 
concern so much as a "who gets access to the candy" concern by virtue of 
spending money on Apple devices.

-- 
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

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#126247

On 2023-12-09 15:19:52 +0000, Andy Burns said:

> Frank Slootweg wrote:
> 
>> Tyrone wrote:
>> 
>>> As expected, Apple has already killed this. Did anyone REALLY think Apple
>>> would permit this?
>> 
>> Do have any reference/proof for this? (I didn't see any such thing in
>> the article, nor in the original Business Insider article.)
> 
> <https://www.androidpolice.com/beeper-mini-outage-b/>
> 
> <https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/08/apple-cuts-off-beeper-minis-access-after-launch-of-service-that-brought-imessage-to-android/> 
> 
> 
>> So *what* exactly *did* Apple 'kill'?
> 
> At a rough guess, Apple have initially blocked Beeper's IPs from their 
> firewall?

The Beeper Mini developer is already working on a fix:

    Beeper Mini developers say fix is 'coming soon'
    for iMessage Android app
    
<https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/12/09/beeper-mini-developers-say-fix-is-coming-soon-for-imessage-android-app> 



But as that articles says ...

    "If Beeper Mini is fixed to work once more, it may face a
     similar issue in the not-so-distant future. With Apple
     keen to keep iMessage to only its own ecosystem of
     devices, this may result in a security arms race between
     the trillion-dollar iPhone maker and developers wanting
     iMessage to work with Android."

so it may not work for long before being blocked again. Continually 
being blocked would mean it's not really a viable solution to anything 
at all, whether that's Android user's "blue bubble phobia" or "lack of 
features".

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#126349

Your Name wrote on Sun, 10 Dec 2023 11:50:20 +1300 :

> so it may not work for long before being blocked again.

The last thing Apple wants is iOS to communicate effectively with Android.

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#126350

On 2023-12-10 04:44:53 +0000, Andrew said:
> Your Name wrote on Sun, 10 Dec 2023 11:50:20 +1300 :
>> 
>> so it may not work for long before being blocked again.
> 
> The last thing Apple wants is iOS to communicate effectively with Android.

Apple doesn't really give a damn about Android.

The last thing *any* company wants is for some scum to be making money 
off of them by stealing, not to mention breaking the terms and 
conditions of any services that person has signed up for. If the fool 
continues to fix Beeper Mini, Apple will no doubt bring out the lawyers 
to sue them out of existence.

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#126637

On 10.12.23 05:49, Your Name wrote:
> On 2023-12-10 04:44:53 +0000, Andrew said:
>> Your Name wrote on Sun, 10 Dec 2023 11:50:20 +1300 :
>>>
>>> so it may not work for long before being blocked again.
>>
>> The last thing Apple wants is iOS to communicate effectively with Android.
> 
> Apple doesn't really give a damn about Android.
> 
> The last thing *any* company wants is for some scum to be making money 
> off of them by stealing, not to mention breaking the terms and 
> conditions of any services that person has signed up for. If the fool 
> continues to fix Beeper Mini, Apple will no doubt bring out the lawyers 
> to sue them out of existence.

Fair statement.

-- 
"Roma locuta, causa finita." (Augustinus)

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#126669

On 2023-12-09 23:44, Andrew wrote:
> Your Name wrote on Sun, 10 Dec 2023 11:50:20 +1300 :
> 
>> so it may not work for long before being blocked again.
> 
> The last thing Apple wants is iOS to communicate effectively with Android.

iOS already communicates effectively with Android:

-phone (cell network)
-e-mail
-SMS
-MMS
-AirTag detection (malicious intent prevention).

and next year
-RCS


-- 
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

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#127612

On 2023-12-10 14:20, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-12-09 23:44, Andrew wrote:
>> Your Name wrote on Sun, 10 Dec 2023 11:50:20 +1300 :
>>
>>> so it may not work for long before being blocked again.
>>
>> The last thing Apple wants is iOS to communicate effectively with 
>> Android.
> 
> iOS already communicates effectively with Android:
> 
> -phone (cell network)
> -e-mail
> -SMS
> -MMS

Not in Europe, probably not in most of the world. I only known about NA 
using MMS.

> -AirTag detection (malicious intent prevention).
> 
> and next year
> -RCS
> 
> 

-- 
Cheers,
        Carlos E.R.

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#128283

On 2023-12-09 22:50:20 +0000, Your Name said:
> On 2023-12-09 15:19:52 +0000, Andy Burns said:
>> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>> Tyrone wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> As expected, Apple has already killed this. Did anyone REALLY think Apple
>>>> would permit this?
>>> 
>>> Do have any reference/proof for this? (I didn't see any such thing in
>>> the article, nor in the original Business Insider article.)
>> 
>> <https://www.androidpolice.com/beeper-mini-outage-b/>
>> 
>> <https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/08/apple-cuts-off-beeper-minis-access-after-launch-of-service-that-brought-imessage-to-android/> 
>> 
>> 
>>> So *what* exactly *did* Apple 'kill'?
>> 
>> At a rough guess, Apple have initially blocked Beeper's IPs from their 
>> firewall?
> 
> The Beeper Mini developer is already working on a fix:
> 
>     Beeper Mini developers say fix is 'coming soon'
>     for iMessage Android app
>     
> <https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/12/09/beeper-mini-developers-say-fix-is-coming-soon-for-imessage-android-app> 
> 
> 
> 
> But as that articles says ...
> 
>     "If Beeper Mini is fixed to work once more, it may face a
>      similar issue in the not-so-distant future. With Apple
>      keen to keep iMessage to only its own ecosystem of
>      devices, this may result in a security arms race between
>      the trillion-dollar iPhone maker and developers wanting
>      iMessage to work with Android."
> 
> so it may not work for long before being blocked again. Continually 
> being blocked would mean it's not really a viable solution to anything 
> at all, whether that's Android user's "blue bubble phobia" or "lack of 
> features".

Beeper Mini is working again ...

     Beeper Mini for Android lives again,
     but for how long is anybody's guess
     
<https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/12/11/beeper-mini-for-android-lives-again-but-for-how-long-is-anybodys-guess> 



... bets on how long it will take Apple to block it again?

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#131515

On 2023-12-11 20:35:00 +0000, Your Name said:
> On 2023-12-09 22:50:20 +0000, Your Name said:
>> On 2023-12-09 15:19:52 +0000, Andy Burns said:
>>> Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>>> Tyrone wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> As expected, Apple has already killed this. Did anyone REALLY think 
>>>>> Apple would permit this?
>>>> 
>>>> Do have any reference/proof for this? (I didn't see any such thing in
>>>> the article, nor in the original Business Insider article.)
>>> 
>>> <https://www.androidpolice.com/beeper-mini-outage-b/>
>>> 
>>> <https://techcrunch.com/2023/12/08/apple-cuts-off-beeper-minis-access-after-launch-of-service-that-brought-imessage-to-android/> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> So *what* exactly *did* Apple 'kill'?
>>> 
>>> At a rough guess, Apple have initially blocked Beeper's IPs from their 
>>> firewall?
>> 
>> The Beeper Mini developer is already working on a fix:
>> 
>> Beeper Mini developers say fix is 'coming soon'
>> for iMessage Android app
>> 
>> <https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/12/09/beeper-mini-developers-say-fix-is-coming-soon-for-imessage-android-app> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> But as that articles says ...
>> 
>> "If Beeper Mini is fixed to work once more, it may face a
>> similar issue in the not-so-distant future. With Apple
>> keen to keep iMessage to only its own ecosystem of
>> devices, this may result in a security arms race between
>> the trillion-dollar iPhone maker and developers wanting
>> iMessage to work with Android."
>> 
>> so it may not work for long before being blocked again. Continually 
>> being blocked would mean it's not really a viable solution to anything 
>> at all, whether that's Android user's "blue bubble phobia" or "lack of 
>> features".
> 
> Beeper Mini is working again ...
> 
>      Beeper Mini for Android lives again,
>      but for how long is anybody's guess
>      
> <https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/12/11/beeper-mini-for-android-lives-again-but-for-how-long-is-anybodys-guess> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... bets on how long it will take Apple to block it again?

And it's gone again ... at least for a few users (although supposedly 
simply reinstalling the app "fixes" the problem).

    Beeper Mini is down for 5% of users, but there's a fix
    
<https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/12/14/beeper-mini-is-down-for-5-of-users-but-theres-a-fix> 



Who had 2 days in the betting pool??  ;-)

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#132544

Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote 

>> ... bets on how long it will take Apple to block it again?
> 
> And it's gone again ... at least for a few users (although supposedly 
> simply reinstalling the app "fixes" the problem).
> 
>     Beeper Mini is down for 5% of users, but there's a fix
>     
> <https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/12/14/beeper-mini-is-down-for-5-of-users-but-theres-a-fix>

Whack-a-Mole

The child-like Apple posters are likely unaware of this, but this 
whack-a-mole action<->reaction seems to be looking eerily familiar.

It's kind of what happened to the FOSS Google Play Store app when it first 
debuted (and whose developers personally fixed many times, sometimes at my 
request as seen on the XDA Developers web site).

And this whack-a-mole action:reaction is similar to what happened to the 
FOSS YouTube app (whose developers I have had few interactions with).

Based on my limited interaction with these developers, what seems to happen 
is 

a. Developer uses the public-facing APIs to access Apple/Google content
b. Apple/Google figure out how they did it (the FOSS apps are open source)
c. Apple/Google shut down as much as they can legally shut down

But, since the APIs are public (at least to Google Play Store & YouTube 
content they are) there's only so much that Google can do (on Android)
to stop people from having an app that does _exactly_ what they want it to 
do.

Note: On iOS, Apple is in cahoots with Google such that Apple does not 
allow the FOSS YouTube and Google Play Store apps to exist on iOS.

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#132591

Wally J wrote:

> since the APIs are public (at least to Google Play Store & YouTube 
> content they are) there's only so much that Google can do (on
> Android) to stop people from having an app that doesexactly  what
> they want it to do.

In a way, it's surprising the iMessage app doesn't use a client 
certificate, that's stored in the Secure Enclave, or for older devices 
that's retrieved from the iCloud account.

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#132620

On 2023-12-14 09:55, Andy Burns wrote:

> In a way, it's surprising the iMessage app doesn't use a client 
> certificate, that's stored in the Secure Enclave, or for older devices 
> that's retrieved from the iCloud account.

What I've said for a bit.  Actually any known item that the server can 
challenge the device to encrypt with an Apple originated key and send 
back to validate.  This might be a challenge to implement for some older 
Macs, OS versions however.

Older devices w/o a secure enclave could be easy to mimic, however.

Apple have to be able to defeat this attack w/o maiming valid users.

-- 
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

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#132867

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote 

>> In a way, it's surprising the iMessage app doesn't use a client 
>> certificate, that's stored in the Secure Enclave, or for older devices 
>> that's retrieved from the iCloud account.
> 
> What I've said for a bit.  Actually any known item that the server can 
> challenge the device to encrypt with an Apple originated key and send 
> back to validate.  This might be a challenge to implement for some older 
> Macs, OS versions however.

I always easily agree with anyone who makes a sensibly logical assessment. 
I agree with Alan/Andy that it's odd that doesn't secure iMessage better.

> Older devices w/o a secure enclave could be easy to mimic, however.

Given the secure enclave chip is well known to contain fatal flaws, 
I don't know if people would want an unfixable flaw again in their device.

> Apple have to be able to defeat this attack w/o maiming valid users.

Apple lies when they claim to want interoperability - and - the very fact
you call interoperability an "attack" shows exactly how your mind works.
-- 
 To Apple (& to Alan Browne) - interoperability is considered an "attack".
 Message-ID: <LWEeN.18792$xHn7.13574@fx14.iad>

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