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Are we just running in place?

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  Are we just running in place? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-10-30 15:53 +0300
    Re: Are we just running in place? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-30 13:43 +0000
      Re: Are we just running in place? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-30 10:28 -0400
        Re: Are we just running in place? Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-10-30 15:34 +0000
          Re: Are we just running in place?     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-10-30 09:05 -0700
            Re: Are we just running in place? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-30 13:25 -0400
              Re: Are we just running in place? Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-10-30 17:28 +0000
              Re: Are we just running in place? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-30 18:32 +0000
                Re: Are we just running in place? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-01 20:01 +0000
                  Re: Are we just running in place? Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-11-04 10:11 +0100
                    Re: Are we just running in place? scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2015-11-04 22:29 +0000
                      Re: Are we just running in place? Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 16:44 -0600
                      Re: Are we just running in place? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-11-04 23:04 -0500
                        Re: Are we just running in place? Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 22:34 -0600
                        Re: Are we just running in place? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-11-05 10:30 +0300
                        Re: Are we just running in place? Stephen Chadfield <stephen@chadfield.com> - 2015-11-05 13:39 +0000
            Re: Are we just running in place? Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-10-30 17:30 +0000
              Re: Are we just running in place? Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-10-31 08:05 +0000
          Re: Are we just running in place? Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-11-04 10:01 +0100
        Re: Are we just running in place? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-30 17:34 +0000
          Re: Are we just running in place? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-30 13:49 -0400
            Re: Are we just running in place? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-30 18:23 +0000
              Re: Are we just running in place? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-30 18:59 +0000
              Re: Are we just running in place? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-11-01 01:33 -0300
              Re: Are we just running in place? Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-11-04 10:19 +0100
                Re: Are we just running in place? Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-11-04 21:21 +0000
          Re: Are we just running in place? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-10-30 18:33 +0000
            Re: Are we just running in place? Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 12:59 -0500
              Re: Are we just running in place? scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2015-11-03 17:29 +0000
                Re: Are we just running in place? fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-11-03 10:14 -0800
          Re: Are we just running in place? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-10-30 18:39 +0000
            Re: Are we just running in place? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-30 19:22 +0000
              Re: Are we just running in place? "Dirk T. Verbeek" <dverbeek@xs4all.nl> - 2015-10-30 20:27 +0100
                Re: Are we just running in place? bde@besplex.bde.org (Bruce Evans) - 2015-10-30 20:08 +0000
                  Re: Are we just running in place? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-10-30 21:21 +0000
                    Re: Are we just running in place? bde@besplex.bde.org (Bruce Evans) - 2015-10-31 04:15 +0000
                  Re: Are we just running in place? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-02 14:19 +0000
                    Re: Are we just running in place? bde@besplex.bde.org (Bruce Evans) - 2015-11-02 16:15 +0000
                      Re: Are we just running in place? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-11-02 12:29 -0500
                      Re: Are we just running in place? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-02 19:13 +0000
                        Re: Are we just running in place? bde@besplex.bde.org (Bruce Evans) - 2015-11-02 21:25 +0000
                          Re: Are we just running in place? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-03 14:03 +0000
              Re: Are we just running in place? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-10-30 21:11 +0000
          Re: Are we just running in place? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-11-01 01:23 -0300
        Re: Are we just running in place? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-10-30 20:05 +0000
      Re: Are we just running in place? Johnny B Good <johnny-b-good@invalid.ntlworld.com> - 2015-10-30 19:53 +0000
        Re: Are we just running in place? Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-11-01 12:09 -0500
      Re: Are we just running in place? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-01 09:42 +0000
        Re: Are we just running in place? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-01 13:33 +0000
          Re: Are we just running in place? "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2015-11-02 12:45 +1100
            Re: Are we just running in place? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-02 11:06 +0100
      Re: Are we just running in place? Waldek Hebisch <hebisch@math.uni.wroc.pl> - 2015-11-03 22:06 +0000
        Re: Are we just running in place? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-03 23:43 +0100
          Re: Are we just running in place? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2015-11-04 13:52 +0000
        Re: Are we just running in place? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-03 23:46 +0000
          Re: Are we just running in place? Waldek Hebisch <hebisch@math.uni.wroc.pl> - 2015-11-04 04:35 +0000
            Re: Are we just running in place? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-04 10:24 +0100
              Re: Are we just running in place? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2015-11-04 09:55 +0000
                Re: Are we just running in place? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-04 12:42 +0100
            Re: Are we just running in place? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-04 14:57 +0000
              Re: Are we just running in place? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-11-04 11:29 -0500
              Re: Are we just running in place? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-04 16:43 +0000
              Re: Are we just running in place? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-04 17:55 +0100
                Re: Are we just running in place? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-04 18:04 +0000
                  Re: Are we just running in place? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2015-11-04 18:48 +0000
                    Re: Are we just running in place? "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2015-11-04 13:05 -0600
                    Re: Are we just running in place? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-04 19:36 +0000
                  Re: Are we just running in place? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-04 21:15 +0100
                    Re: Are we just running in place? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-04 21:35 +0000
              Re: Are we just running in place? Kees Nuyt <k.nuyt@nospam.demon.nl> - 2015-11-04 21:07 +0100
          Re: Are we just running in place? Richard Kettlewell <rjk@greenend.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 10:36 +0000
        Re: Are we just running in place? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-03 23:52 +0000
          Re: Are we just running in place? Andrew Swallow <am.swallow@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-04 02:56 +0000
            Re: Are we just running in place? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-04 11:05 +0000
          Re: Are we just running in place? Waldek Hebisch <hebisch@math.uni.wroc.pl> - 2015-11-04 03:12 +0000
            Re: Are we just running in place? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2015-11-04 10:02 +0100
              Re: Are we just running in place? Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2015-11-08 11:48 +0100
          Re: Are we just running in place? Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-11-04 10:36 +0100
          Re: Are we just running in place? "John Jackson" <jj@nospam.com> - 2015-11-05 09:01 +1100
            Re: Are we just running in place? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-11-05 00:09 +0000
        Re: Are we just running in place? Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-04 11:03 -0500
          Re: Are we just running in place? Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> - 2015-11-04 21:25 +0000
          Re: Are we just running in place? Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> - 2015-11-05 08:01 +0000
    Re: Are we just running in place? "78lp" <78lp@nospam.com> - 2015-10-31 15:09 +1100
    Re: Are we just running in place? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-31 11:11 +0000
      Re: Are we just running in place? RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-10-31 14:57 +0300
      Re: Are we just running in place? Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> - 2015-10-31 10:19 -0400
        Re: Are we just running in place? "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> - 2015-10-31 16:28 +0000
      Re: Are we just running in place?     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-10-31 04:14 -0700

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#9228 — Are we just running in place?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/15/junk_your_it_now_before_it_drags_you_under/ 


//--clip
In practice, the growing sophistication of software has meant that 
while computers certainly feel faster than they did thirty or forty 
years ago, the difference - as far as our perceptions are concerned - 
isn’t nearly as great. Files might load a thousand times faster, but we 
still experience a perceptible interval between selecting “Open...” and 
being able to work on a file.
Thirty years ago, Ted Nelson, one of the great visionaries of 
computing, said that our devices had to deliver a ‘bingo effect’ - as 
soon as you reached out for a document, it should be there, ready to 
edit. Today we open a document in Microsoft Word - even on a multi-Ghz 
machine with a solid state disk and plenty of RAM - in a process that 
always takes a few seconds. And it always has. Sure, it takes a few 
less seconds than it may have back in 1986, using Microsoft Word on the 
first Macintosh Plus, but where’s that thousand-fold improvement from 
Moore’s Law?
A decade ago virtual reality pioneer Jaron Lanier noted the complexity 
of software seems to outpace improvements in hardware, giving us the 
sense that we’re running in place. Our computers, he argued, have 
become more complex and less reliable. We can see the truth of this 
everywhere: Networked systems provide massive capacities but introduce 
great vulnerabilities. Simple programs bloat with endless features. 
Things get worse, not better.
Anyone who’s built a career in IT understands this technical debt. 
Legacy systems persist for decades. Every major operating system - 
desktop and mobile - has bugs so persistent they seem more like 
permanent features than temporary mistakes. Yet we constantly build 
news things on top of these increasingly rickety scaffolds. We do more, 
so we crash more - our response to that has been to make crashes as 
nearly painless as possible. The hard lockups and BSODs of a few years 
ago have morphed a momentary disappearance, as if nothing of real 
consequence has happened.
Worse still, we seem to regard every aspect of IT with a ridiculous and 
undeserved sense of permanence. We don’t want to throw away our old 
computers while they still work. We don’t want to abandon our old 
programs. Some of that is pure sentimentality - after all, why keep 
using something that’s slow and increasingly less useful? More of it 
reflects the investment of time and attention spent learning a 
sophisticated piece of software.
The processes that software encapsulates will inevitably be examined, 
improved, refined, and repackaged as other processes.
Yet a commitment to obsolescence is the unspoken agreement for all 
things IT. Yes, you may treasure that NetWare server with sixteen years 
continuous uptime, but does it really have utility when everyone, 
everywhere can access cloud-based data storage API? Embracing the new 
requires us to loosen our grip on the old.
Some may well be thinking: that way lies madness. If we changed our 
systems all the time, nothing would work. Consider: nearly every 
organisation of any scale has legacy (but functioning) systems so old 
they can no longer be upgraded or even maintained properly. Uptime has 
become a god, and capacity has been sacrificed on its altar.
Another view is that the industry that creates disruption is ironically 
terrified to disrupt itself. The biggest vendors cleverly act more as 
psychiatrists than problem-solvers, soothing fears, reassuring IT 
managers with gentle whispers of ‘Everything will be alright,’ as both 
walk a garden path into irrelevance.
Embracing change means abandoning the false sense of stability IT has 
offered management as part of its bargain to increase productivity. 
Productivity is not a function of stability. It’s about the wholesale 
revision of business processes to meet or generate market needs. 
Productivity demands that we junk everything comfortable, everything 
safe, everything stable, set our faces to the wind, and explore the 
unknown. The IT department that fails to heed this lesson fails the 
business it serves. A recent quip from Saul Kaplan puts it best: 
“Marginal cost of staying the same is rising. Think of it as inflation 
eating away at your relevancy rather than capital.”
Hostage to forces that want to contain its disruptive nature, IT has 
become infrastructure where it should always be a strategic asset, 
wielded like a blade, cutting a swath through markets and competitors. 
How many IT departments can say they are the most important element of 
the business? Not many. That’s the sure sign that IT is itself ready to 
be utterly disrupted. ®
//--clip

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#9230

"RS Wood" <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote in message 
news:d9h7ivF1apvU1@mid.individual.net...
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/15/junk_your_it_now_before_it_drags_you_under/


Very well said.

Give me a machine with GHz speed, and astronmical sized hard disk, a retina 
display,
but otherwise completely lacking in system software, so that I can control 
from the
ground up, just as I did with my first experience of a PDP-11/20 back in 
1971.

I always revelled in close contact with the machine, and as time has 
progressed, I feel more
and more divorced from the computers that I love.

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#9231

"gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> writes:

> "RS Wood" <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote in message 
> news:d9h7ivF1apvU1@mid.individual.net...
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/15/junk_your_it_now_before_it_drags_you_under/
>
>
> Very well said.
>
> Give me a machine with GHz speed, and astronmical sized hard disk, a retina 
> display,
> but otherwise completely lacking in system software, so that I can control 
> from the
> ground up, just as I did with my first experience of a PDP-11/20 back in 
> 1971.
>
> I always revelled in close contact with the machine, and as time has 
> progressed, I feel more
> and more divorced from the computers that I love.

Simple cure.  Run Linux.
Don't use any of the highfalutin desktops, just a basic WM.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#9232

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:28:49 -0400, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
> "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> writes:
>
>> "RS Wood" <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote in message 
>> news:d9h7ivF1apvU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/15/junk_your_it_now_before_it_
>>> drags_you_under/
>>
>>
>> Very well said.
>>
>> Give me a machine with GHz speed, and astronmical sized hard disk, a retina 
>> display,
>> but otherwise completely lacking in system software, so that I can control 
>> from the
>> ground up, just as I did with my first experience of a PDP-11/20 back in 
>> 1971.
>>
>> I always revelled in close contact with the machine, and as time has 
>> progressed, I feel more
>> and more divorced from the computers that I love.
>
> Simple cure.  Run Linux.

or *BSD...

> Don't use any of the highfalutin desktops, just a basic WM.

XFCE is sorta a bit of both, works for me!


-- 
Stan Barr     plan.b@bluesomatic.org

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#9233

Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:28:49 -0400, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
> > Simple cure.  Run Linux.
> 
> or *BSD...

You posted that so I didn't have to.

> > Don't use any of the highfalutin desktops, just a basic WM.
> 
> XFCE is sorta a bit of both, works for me!

I use an old fvwm2, simple enough that I could hack it
decades ago to perform a few unspeakable atrocities that
suit me just fine.  Brought it from Linux to FreeBSD and it
compiled and runs without a hitch.

In that environment, applications like seamonkey complain to
standard output that stuff ain't there, and after those
complaints they run like a top.

-- 
Bill Evans / Box 1224 / Mariposa, CA 95338 / (209)742-4720
Mail-To: wje@acm.org   -- PGP encrypted mail preferred. --
pgpkey.mariposabill.com for public key.    Key #: 8D8B521B
PGPprint: 0A9C 3545 8FFF 7501 6265 1519 40FF 76F9 8D8B 521B

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#9234

wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) writes:

> Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:28:49 -0400, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
>> > Simple cure.  Run Linux.
>> 
>> or *BSD...
> You posted that so I didn't have to.

Always impressed by BSD fans.
Sort of like OS2 fans, they refuse to follow the crowd.

>> > Don't use any of the highfalutin desktops, just a basic WM.
>> 
>> XFCE is sorta a bit of both, works for me!
>
> I use an old fvwm2, simple enough that I could hack it
> decades ago to perform a few unspeakable atrocities that
> suit me just fine.  Brought it from Linux to FreeBSD and it
> compiled and runs without a hitch.
>
> In that environment, applications like seamonkey complain to
> standard output that stuff ain't there, and after those
> complaints they run like a top.

I started with Fvwm2 on SunOS.
There is zero difference in function or appearance between
my 199x SunOS setup and my current Fedora set up.
I even refuse and of the GDM contrivances.
I want a nice easy to understand start up process.

One thing I miss from SunOS/Solaris is contool.
"contool" gets a copy of everything directed to the console
and can be programmed to ignore or take any action you desire
based on the log message.

The Linux console is so full of crap, that might be a major
undertaking.  But I don't think GUI started apps should
be spilling stuff to STDERR/STDOUT/SYSLOG without something
watching.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#9235

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:25:43 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

> wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) writes:
> 
>> Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:28:49 -0400, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Simple cure.  Run Linux.
>>> 
>>> or *BSD...
>> You posted that so I didn't have to.
> 
> Always impressed by BSD fans.
> Sort of like OS2 fans, they refuse to follow the crowd.

In my case, because I've been using BSD since 1977.




-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#9240

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) writes:
>
>> Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:28:49 -0400, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
>>> > Simple cure.  Run Linux.
>>> 
>>> or *BSD...
>> You posted that so I didn't have to.
>
>Always impressed by BSD fans.
>Sort of like OS2 fans, they refuse to follow the crowd.
>
>>> > Don't use any of the highfalutin desktops, just a basic WM.
>>> 
>>> XFCE is sorta a bit of both, works for me!
>>
>> I use an old fvwm2, simple enough that I could hack it
>> decades ago to perform a few unspeakable atrocities that
>> suit me just fine.  Brought it from Linux to FreeBSD and it
>> compiled and runs without a hitch.
>>
>> In that environment, applications like seamonkey complain to
>> standard output that stuff ain't there, and after those
>> complaints they run like a top.
>
>I started with Fvwm2 on SunOS.
>There is zero difference in function or appearance between
>my 199x SunOS setup and my current Fedora set up.
>I even refuse and of the GDM contrivances.
>I want a nice easy to understand start up process.

Yep.  I started with uwm & twm on svr3.2 in 1990, and still use
twm (scientific linux, a redhat clone) today.   Although I
do have an Ubuntu laptop running the Ubuntu UI, I much
prefer twm (or tvtwm if multiple workspaces are required).

XDM is my preferred display manager, although I've been
known to use startx.


>
>The Linux console is so full of crap, that might be a major
>undertaking.  But I don't think GUI started apps should
>be spilling stuff to STDERR/STDOUT/SYSLOG without something
>watching.

I have this in my .xsession:

exec 2> ${XERROR_FILE}

which directs stderr for children of xdm to the specified disk
file.

Also in the .xsession:

xterm -fn 6x10 -geometry 80x7-0+0 -e tail -f ${XERROR_FILE}&

which gives me a small window with stderr messages from the
GUI tools.

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#9302

On Fri, 2015-10-30, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>>wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) writes:
>>
>>> Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:28:49 -0400, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> > Simple cure.  Run Linux.

...
>>>> > Don't use any of the highfalutin desktops, just a basic WM.
>>>> 
>>>> XFCE is sorta a bit of both, works for me!

I'm running that on one machine, and it feels very far from "just a
basic WM".  Feels more like Windows than Unix to me, in fact.

>>> I use an old fvwm2, simple enough that I could hack it
>>> decades ago to perform a few unspeakable atrocities that
>>> suit me just fine.  Brought it from Linux to FreeBSD and it
>>> compiled and runs without a hitch.
>>>
>>> In that environment, applications like seamonkey complain to
>>> standard output that stuff ain't there, and after those
>>> complaints they run like a top.
>>
>>I started with Fvwm2 on SunOS.
>>There is zero difference in function or appearance between
>>my 199x SunOS setup and my current Fedora set up.
>>I even refuse and of the GDM contrivances.
>>I want a nice easy to understand start up process.
>
> Yep.  I started with uwm & twm on svr3.2 in 1990, and still use
> twm (scientific linux, a redhat clone) today.   Although I
> do have an Ubuntu laptop running the Ubuntu UI, I much
> prefer twm (or tvtwm if multiple workspaces are required).
>
> XDM is my preferred display manager, although I've been
> known to use startx.

startx and ctwm here, which is what I used on SunOS since 1992 (except
I replaced twm with ctwm for the same reasons you use tvtwm).

>>The Linux console is so full of crap, that might be a major
>>undertaking.  But I don't think GUI started apps should
>>be spilling stuff to STDERR/STDOUT/SYSLOG without something
>>watching.

They shouldn't be spilling stuff, period.  Not when they're just
whining about not finding some useless integration with some desktop
environment which I chose never to install!

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .     .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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#9362

On 2015-11-01, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Fri, 2015-10-30, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>The Linux console is so full of crap, that might be a major
>>>undertaking.  But I don't think GUI started apps should
>>>be spilling stuff to STDERR/STDOUT/SYSLOG without something
>>>watching.
>
> They shouldn't be spilling stuff, period.  Not when they're just
> whining about not finding some useless integration with some desktop
> environment which I chose never to install!

One particularly bad example was when I was using a cordless-with-USB
adaptor keyboard.  The console was emitting messages every minute or so
to the effect that it had discovered the keyboard, interrupting the
output I was interested in.  The workaround was to use a wired keyboard
and hey presto, no interruptions.

-- 
The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing
that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly
go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or
repair.                                                       -- HHGTTG

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#9397

In article <hnuogc-frm1.ln1@news.chingola.ch>,
Paul Sture  <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
>One particularly bad example was when I was using a cordless-with-USB
>adaptor keyboard.  The console was emitting messages every minute or so
>to the effect that it had discovered the keyboard, interrupting the
>output I was interested in.  The workaround was to use a wired keyboard
>and hey presto, no interruptions.

Sounds like a crappy implementation of the receiver: one that says "hey, a
keyboard's been connected" when you start typing and then says "now it's
gone away" after a bit, only to have to reconnect again.  Input devices
don't normally behave like that, so what drugs were being consumed (and in
what quantities) for someone at whatever company made your wireless keyboard
to think that sort of behavior would be a good idea?

  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/           Top-posting!
 \_^_/                              >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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#9398

On 11/4/2015 16:29, Scott Alfter wrote:
> In article <hnuogc-frm1.ln1@news.chingola.ch>,
> Paul Sture  <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
>> One particularly bad example was when I was using a cordless-with-USB
>> adaptor keyboard.  The console was emitting messages every minute or so
>> to the effect that it had discovered the keyboard, interrupting the
>> output I was interested in.  The workaround was to use a wired keyboard
>> and hey presto, no interruptions.
>
> Sounds like a crappy implementation of the receiver: one that says "hey, a
> keyboard's been connected" when you start typing and then says "now it's
> gone away" after a bit, only to have to reconnect again.  Input devices
> don't normally behave like that, so what drugs were being consumed (and in
> what quantities) for someone at whatever company made your wireless keyboard
> to think that sort of behavior would be a good idea?

I wonder if the OS "power management" setup set to "stay powered up" 
would fix it,  I find that the green idiocy does lots of harm and no 
appreciable good.


-- 
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)

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#9402

scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) writes:

> In article <hnuogc-frm1.ln1@news.chingola.ch>,
> Paul Sture  <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
>>One particularly bad example was when I was using a cordless-with-USB
>>adaptor keyboard.  The console was emitting messages every minute or so
>>to the effect that it had discovered the keyboard, interrupting the
>>output I was interested in.  The workaround was to use a wired keyboard
>>and hey presto, no interruptions.
>
> Sounds like a crappy implementation of the receiver: one that says "hey, a
> keyboard's been connected" when you start typing and then says "now it's
> gone away" after a bit, only to have to reconnect again.  Input devices
> don't normally behave like that, so what drugs were being consumed (and in
> what quantities) for someone at whatever company made your wireless keyboard
> to think that sort of behavior would be a good idea?

Think batteries.

I had a cordless mouse.
Sounded like a good idea.
But a cordless mouse needs to turn itself off
or you'll change the battery every week.
Now that poor mouse hides in the closet because
I don't want to wait for my mouse to boot up
each time I leave it alone for a few minutes.

-- 
Dan Espen

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#9403

On 11/4/2015 22:04, Dan Espen wrote:
> scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) writes:
>
>> In article <hnuogc-frm1.ln1@news.chingola.ch>,
>> Paul Sture  <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
>>> One particularly bad example was when I was using a cordless-with-USB
>>> adaptor keyboard.  The console was emitting messages every minute or so
>>> to the effect that it had discovered the keyboard, interrupting the
>>> output I was interested in.  The workaround was to use a wired keyboard
>>> and hey presto, no interruptions.
>>
>> Sounds like a crappy implementation of the receiver: one that says "hey, a
>> keyboard's been connected" when you start typing and then says "now it's
>> gone away" after a bit, only to have to reconnect again.  Input devices
>> don't normally behave like that, so what drugs were being consumed (and in
>> what quantities) for someone at whatever company made your wireless keyboard
>> to think that sort of behavior would be a good idea?
>
> Think batteries.
>
> I had a cordless mouse.
> Sounded like a good idea.
> But a cordless mouse needs to turn itself off
> or you'll change the battery every week.
> Now that poor mouse hides in the closet because
> I don't want to wait for my mouse to boot up
> each time I leave it alone for a few minutes.
>

I use wireless mice and except for the one that spends most of it time 
in the laptop's bag and hence turned off, I don't turn them off.

I used the laptop a lot this weekend and the battery failed, but that 
happens so infrequently I forgot to recognize the symptoms and it took 
me several minutes to trouble-shoot it.  And several more to realize I 
could cannibalize one from my flashlight.

The one I use with the desktop turns on a red light some time before 
failure and that only happens twice a year or so--and it takes me a 
while to wonder "why is that red light on?"


-- 
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)

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#9404

On 2015-11-05 07:04:54 +0300, Dan Espen said:
> Think batteries.
> 
> I had a cordless mouse.
> Sounded like a good idea.
> But a cordless mouse needs to turn itself off
> or you'll change the battery every week.
> Now that poor mouse hides in the closet because
> I don't want to wait for my mouse to boot up
> each time I leave it alone for a few minutes.

I had a similar experience with a Bluetooth keyboard and have since 
decided cords are preferable and provide a better experience.  
Cluttered yes, but who cares?  If going cordless requires so much 
hassle, I'll take the cords please.

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#9407

On 2015-11-05, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
> I had a cordless mouse.
> Sounded like a good idea.
> But a cordless mouse needs to turn itself off
> or you'll change the battery every week.
> Now that poor mouse hides in the closet because
> I don't want to wait for my mouse to boot up
> each time I leave it alone for a few minutes.

My Bluetooth mouse has an on-off switch on its base. When I have 
finished using my laptop I turn the mouse off. This seems to work well 
and the batteries last for a long time.

-- 
Stephen Chadfield

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#9236

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:05:00 -0700, Bill Evans wrote:

> Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:28:49 -0400, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>> > Simple cure.  Run Linux.
>> 
>> or *BSD...
> 
> You posted that so I didn't have to.
> 
>> > Don't use any of the highfalutin desktops, just a basic WM.
>> 
>> XFCE is sorta a bit of both, works for me!
> 
> I use an old fvwm2, simple enough that I could hack it decades ago to
> perform a few unspeakable atrocities that suit me just fine.  Brought it
> from Linux to FreeBSD and it compiled and runs without a hitch.
> 
> In that environment, applications like seamonkey complain to standard
> output that stuff ain't there, and after those complaints they run like
> a top.

I use FreeBSD and LXDE.

The only application that gave any trouble was audacity, and that's 
merely kernel messages that warn about a couple of unsupported (but non 
essential) system calls. I just hacked the kernel to suppress them!




-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#9256

On 30 Oct 2015 17:30:21 GMT, Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 09:05:00 -0700, Bill Evans wrote:
>
>> Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:28:49 -0400, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Simple cure.  Run Linux.
>>> 
>>> or *BSD...
>> 
>> You posted that so I didn't have to.
>> 
>>> > Don't use any of the highfalutin desktops, just a basic WM.
>>> 
>>> XFCE is sorta a bit of both, works for me!
>> 
>> I use an old fvwm2, simple enough that I could hack it decades ago to
>> perform a few unspeakable atrocities that suit me just fine.  Brought it
>> from Linux to FreeBSD and it compiled and runs without a hitch.
>> 
>> In that environment, applications like seamonkey complain to standard
>> output that stuff ain't there, and after those complaints they run like
>> a top.
>
> I use FreeBSD and LXDE.
>
> The only application that gave any trouble was audacity, and that's 
> merely kernel messages that warn about a couple of unsupported (but non 
> essential) system calls. I just hacked the kernel to suppress them!
>
>
>
>

On one of my machines I went minimist...it runs NotIon, a tiled window
manager thats starts up with a blank screen.

Of course I still have my text-only machine which sees a surprising
amount of use. Especially since I got the sound streaming working
properly, it sits there playing Blues Radio UK most of the day!

-- 
Stan Barr     plan.b@bluesomatic.org

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#9361

On 2015-10-30, Stan Barr <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 10:28:49 -0400, Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> wrote:
>> "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> "RS Wood" <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote in message 
>>> news:d9h7ivF1apvU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/15/junk_your_it_now_before_it_
>>>> drags_you_under/
>>>
>>>
>>> Very well said.
>>>
>>> Give me a machine with GHz speed, and astronmical sized hard disk, a retina 
>>> display,
>>> but otherwise completely lacking in system software, so that I can control 
>>> from the
>>> ground up, just as I did with my first experience of a PDP-11/20 back in 
>>> 1971.
>>>
>>> I always revelled in close contact with the machine, and as time has 
>>> progressed, I feel more
>>> and more divorced from the computers that I love.
>>
>> Simple cure.  Run Linux.
>
> or *BSD...
>
>> Don't use any of the highfalutin desktops, just a basic WM.
>
> XFCE is sorta a bit of both, works for me!

XFCE itself comes in different configurations.  The one I prefer is the
default for Scientific Linux.  I did try setting up openSUSE to mirror
that but somehow got lost in there.

-- 
The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing
that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly
go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or
repair.                                                       -- HHGTTG

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#9237

"Dan Espen" <despen@verizon.net> wrote in message 
news:n0vun0$9kt$2@dont-email.me...
> "gareth" <no.spam@thank.you.invalid> writes:
>> "RS Wood" <rsw@therandymon.com> wrote in message
>> news:d9h7ivF1apvU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/15/junk_your_it_now_before_it_drags_you_under/
>> Very well said.
>> Give me a machine with GHz speed, and astronmical sized hard disk, a 
>> retina
>> display,
>> but otherwise completely lacking in system software, so that I can 
>> control
>> from the
>> ground up, just as I did with my first experience of a PDP-11/20 back in
>> 1971.
>> I always revelled in close contact with the machine, and as time has
>> progressed, I feel more
>> and more divorced from the computers that I love.
>
> Simple cure.  Run Linux.
> Don't use any of the highfalutin desktops, just a basic WM.

Even then, you need several mega bytes of bloat and you do not know what is 
happening
underneath.

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