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Another UI anti-pattern

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  Another UI anti-pattern Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-09-06 23:39 +1000
    Re: Another UI anti-pattern Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> - 2015-09-06 14:35 +0000
      Re: Another UI anti-pattern RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2015-09-07 08:31 +0300
        Re: Another UI anti-pattern Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-09-09 12:50 +0200
        Re: Another UI anti-pattern Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-10 14:46 -0700
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-10 15:38 -0700
            Re: Another UI anti-pattern Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-10 16:13 -0700
              Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-10 16:32 -0700
                Re: Another UI anti-pattern     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-09-10 21:18 -0700
                  Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-11 03:12 -0700
                Re: Another UI anti-pattern Oregonian Haruspex <bob_davis_retired@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-11 14:13 -0700
                  Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-13 09:10 -0700
                    Re: Another UI anti-pattern Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-09-13 16:16 +0000
                      Re: Another UI anti-pattern     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-09-13 10:29 -0700
                    Re: Another UI anti-pattern     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-09-13 10:30 -0700
                      Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-13 11:04 -0700
                        Re: Another UI anti-pattern     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-09-13 11:56 -0700
                          Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-14 05:39 -0700
                            Re: Another UI anti-pattern     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-09-14 08:42 -0700
                              Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-14 13:08 -0700
                              Re: Another UI anti-pattern Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-09-15 08:17 +0000
      Re: Another UI anti-pattern Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-09-07 09:09 +0000
        Re: Another UI anti-pattern     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-09-07 04:30 -0700
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-09-07 16:55 +0000
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-09-08 11:40 +1000
            Re: Another UI anti-pattern Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2015-09-09 04:24 -0700
              Re: Another UI anti-pattern Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-09-10 13:42 +1000
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-09-08 01:24 +0200
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2015-09-08 16:56 +0000
      Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-07 10:35 -0700
        Re: Another UI anti-pattern Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-09-07 19:00 +0000
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-09-07 14:40 -0700
            Re: Another UI anti-pattern Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2015-09-07 19:51 -0500
              Re: Another UI anti-pattern Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2015-09-09 04:24 -0700
        Re: Another UI anti-pattern Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-08 02:18 -0300
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-09-08 08:31 +0000
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-08 02:08 -0700
            Re: Another UI anti-pattern     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-09-08 03:32 -0700
              Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-08 05:14 -0700
            Re: Another UI anti-pattern Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-08 15:45 -0300
              Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-08 12:50 -0700
                Re: Another UI anti-pattern Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-08 19:46 -0300
                  Re: Another UI anti-pattern fmassei@gmail.com - 2015-09-08 15:56 -0700
            Re: Another UI anti-pattern Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-09-09 12:39 +0200
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-09-08 03:08 -0700
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2015-09-08 12:40 +0000
            Re: Another UI anti-pattern Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-08 15:36 -0300
    Re: Another UI anti-pattern Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-09-07 23:30 +1000
      Re: Another UI anti-pattern Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2015-09-07 11:04 -0700
        Re: Another UI anti-pattern Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-09-08 11:37 +1000
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2015-09-10 09:44 +0100
      Re: Another UI anti-pattern Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-08 02:06 -0300
        Re: Another UI anti-pattern Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2015-09-08 08:30 +0000
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2015-09-08 15:19 -0300
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-09-09 12:32 +0200
      Re: Another UI anti-pattern Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> - 2015-09-09 11:46 +0200
    Re: Another UI anti-pattern Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2015-09-09 21:26 +0300
      Re: Another UI anti-pattern Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-09-10 12:59 +1000
        Re: Another UI anti-pattern Andy Burns <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> - 2015-09-10 08:14 +0100
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-09-10 19:06 +1000
          Re: Another UI anti-pattern     wje@acm.org (Bill Evans) - 2015-09-10 03:10 -0700

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#8718

On 2015-09-14, Bill Evans <wje@acm.org> wrote:
> fmassei@gmail.com wrote:
>> Well, I usually don't like to generalize, but people who have problems with
>> basic arithmetic, who decided that learning something of everyday use isn't
>> worth the effort, usually have, due to this attitude, bigger problems in
>> life than arithmetic itself.. And it's not a matter of the time we live in,
>> we always had a bunch of those.
>
> Actually, it's not particular people with problems with
> arithmetic.  I've noticed over a few decades an increasing
> trend to let devices do our basic arithmetic for us.  Pretty
> much all of us, including me.
>
> I'm not worried so much about those who are particuarly
> arithmetically challenged.  I'm worred about the pervasive
> trend.
>
> But maybe it's just that I'm in the United States.  I wonder
> whether other countries are in the same situation.

It's much the same in the UK. Mental arithmetic is a dying skill in the
general population. I see it as part of the same trend towards not having
technical hobbies (ham radio is dying ...), not doing DIY (a number of
DIY store chains are struggling).


-- 
Today is Pungenday, the 39th day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3181
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#8601

On 2015-09-06, Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:
> On 2015-09-06, Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote:
>> Example here
>>
>> http://developer.android.com/reference/android/content/Intent.html
>>
>> If you want to search something, you click on the magnifying glass,
>> and the field expands to the left, pushing the Developer Console
>> button to the left as well.
>>
>> As a consequence, most of the time when one's actually looking at the
>> search field, it's expanded, and occupying the space that the
>> Developer Console button occupies for the rest of the time.
>>
>> Is it any surprise, then, that I keep clicking on the damned Developer
>> Console button when I want to search for something? Just to make it
>> extra irritating, that button opens a new web page.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>
> That sort of thing is all over the web.  What is so wrong with having a
> 'search box' that is always visible and always in the same place?  If
> 'there is not enough room' then perhaps there's too much going on.

First we shoot all the "web designers".


-- 
Today is Setting Orange, the 31st day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3181
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#8604

Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> First we shoot all the "web designers".

The lawyers will come after you if you do.

-- 
Bill Evans / Box 1224 / Mariposa, CA 95338 / (209)742-4720
Mail-To: wje@acm.org   -- PGP encrypted mail preferred. --
pgpkey.mariposabill.com for public key.    Key #: 8D8B521B
PGPprint: 0A9C 3545 8FFF 7501 6265 1519 40FF 76F9 8D8B 521B

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#8605

On 2015-09-07, Bill Evans <wje@acm.org> wrote:
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>> First we shoot all the "web designers".
>
> The lawyers will come after you if you do.

We're going to shoot them next.


-- 
Today is Setting Orange, the 31st day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3181
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#8612

On 7/09/2015 9:30 PM, Bill Evans wrote:
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>> First we shoot all the "web designers".
>
> The lawyers will come after you if you do.
>
We'll just hack the crime database. No one will ever know it was us who 
did it.

Sylvia.

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#8638

>>> First we shoot all the "web designers".
>>
>> The lawyers will come after you if you do.
>>
> We'll just hack the crime database. No one will ever know it was us who
> did it.

But they will find this newsgroup thread!
-- 
"At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants 
said: 'O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts 
crush you (under foot) without knowing it.'" --Surah 27. The Ant, The 
Ants, line 18
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see 
this signature correctly.
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )              Chop ANT from its address if e-mailing privately.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

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#8644

On 9/09/2015 9:24 PM, Ant wrote:
>>>> First we shoot all the "web designers".
>>>
>>> The lawyers will come after you if you do.
>>>
>> We'll just hack the crime database. No one will ever know it was us who
>> did it.
>
> But they will find this newsgroup thread!

I dare say, but they'll have fun trying to use it as evidence. I wear a 
tin-foil hat when posting, and use a system that has no permanent 
storage, and boots from a DVD. (The headers are, of course, fake).

Sylvia.

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#8615

On 2015-09-07, Bill Evans <wje@acm.org> wrote:
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>> First we shoot all the "web designers".
>
> The lawyers will come after you if you do.

Use the "web designers" as bait to lure the lawyers into a trap?

Sounds a fine idea to me.

-- 
It's definitely not paranoia when we can all pull out log files full of
people out to get us.

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#8625

In article <news.Mon.20150907.043007.PDT.409@mariposabill.com>,
Bill Evans <wje@acm.org> wrote:
>Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>> First we shoot all the "web designers".
>
>The lawyers will come after you if you do.

That's why Shakespeare recommended killing them first. :)

  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/           Top-posting!
 \_^_/                              >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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#8606

On Sunday, September 6, 2015 at 4:35:42 PM UTC+2, Whiskers wrote:
> That sort of thing is all over the web.  What is so wrong with having a
> 'search box' that is always visible and always in the same place?  If
> 'there is not enough room' then perhaps there's too much going on.
> 

Or, speaking about the vast majority of the web, there would be enough room
if it wasn't already taken by thousand of things that are completely useless
for the user.

M2C,
Ciao!

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#8608

On 2015-09-07, fmassei@gmail.com <fmassei@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, September 6, 2015 at 4:35:42 PM UTC+2, Whiskers wrote:
>> That sort of thing is all over the web.  What is so wrong with having a
>> 'search box' that is always visible and always in the same place?  If
>> 'there is not enough room' then perhaps there's too much going on.
>> 
>
> Or, speaking about the vast majority of the web, there would be enough room
> if it wasn't already taken by thousand of things that are completely useless
> for the user.

We now have a situation where every web site has a different UI. Pisses
me off.


-- 
Today is Setting Orange, the 31st day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3181
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#8609

Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2015-09-07, fmassei@gmail.com <fmassei@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 6, 2015 at 4:35:42 PM UTC+2, Whiskers wrote:
> >> That sort of thing is all over the web.  What is so wrong with having a
> >> 'search box' that is always visible and always in the same place?  If
> >> 'there is not enough room' then perhaps there's too much going on.
> >> 
> >
> > Or, speaking about the vast majority of the web, there would be enough room
> > if it wasn't already taken by thousand of things that are completely useless
> > for the user.
> 
> We now have a situation where every web site has a different UI. Pisses
> me off.

And as long as we're talking UI, I discovered a rule that's
so blindingly obvious that it's all the more infuriating
when it's violated.

Sometimes when you click on a gizmo then one thing happens,
but if you double click on the same gizmo something else
happens.  For extra credit, it's a good idea of those two
actions are related, but that isn't relevant.

What you want to avoid as a UI designer, though, is this.
Let's suppose there's a gizmo that it would make sense to
rapidly click over and over, having the same single-click
effect each time.  You really do not want to assign a
special double-click meaning to that gizmo.

Yes, I'm looking at you, midori.  Midori is a lightweight
web browser which is meant for the Xfce desktop environment,
but would be quite usable even on its own, if only it didn't
violate this rule.

Suppose you're reading a web page and wish to scroll up not
a full pageful, but just about five lines.  All you have to
do is click that up-arrow at the top of the scroll bar a few
times.  But no.  A double click there instead gives you a
new browsing tab.

A shame that such silliness reduces a browser to
uselessness.

-- 
Bill Evans / Box 1224 / Mariposa, CA 95338 / (209)742-4720
Mail-To: wje@acm.org   -- PGP encrypted mail preferred. --
pgpkey.mariposabill.com for public key.    Key #: 8D8B521B
PGPprint: 0A9C 3545 8FFF 7501 6265 1519 40FF 76F9 8D8B 521B

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#8610

On 9/7/2015 16:40, Bill Evans wrote:

> A shame that such silliness reduces a browser to
> uselessness.


Heartbreak--I just learned that NCSA Mosaic won't run in Windows 10.


-- 
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)

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#8639

>> A shame that such silliness reduces a browser to
>> uselessness.
>
> Heartbreak--I just learned that NCSA Mosaic won't run in Windows 10.

Use a VM. :P
-- 
"At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants 
said: 'O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts 
crush you (under foot) without knowing it.'" --Surah 27. The Ant, The 
Ants, line 18
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see 
this signature correctly.
    /\___/\         Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
   / /\ /\ \                Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
  | |o   o| |
     \ _ /        If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
      ( )              Chop ANT from its address if e-mailing privately.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

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#8614

fmassei@gmail.com writes:

> On Sunday, September 6, 2015 at 4:35:42 PM UTC+2, Whiskers wrote:
>
>> That sort of thing is all over the web.  What is so wrong with having a
>> 'search box' that is always visible and always in the same place?  If
>> 'there is not enough room' then perhaps there's too much going on.
>> 
> 
> Or, speaking about the vast majority of the web, there would be enough room
> if it wasn't already taken by thousand of things that are completely useless
> for the user.

Why is it that people who want to actually *sell* you something create
a pathogenic exfoliation of fulminating special effects and
interlocking twisty little passages, impenetrable, circularly
connected, burdened with megabytes of irrelevant code and animations
while people who have a few, perhaps useful or enlightening things to say
and expect little reader response present some simple text and maybe a
few pics?

If you're thinking of buying a new ACME rocket sled, go to the ACME
web site and try to find info on an ACME product in current use or in use
a couple of years ago.  If that search is easy to, then consider the
new ACME sled. If it's a can of worms, forget ACME.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#8617

On 2015-09-08, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> fmassei@gmail.com writes:
>
>> On Sunday, September 6, 2015 at 4:35:42 PM UTC+2, Whiskers wrote:
>>
>>> That sort of thing is all over the web.  What is so wrong with having a
>>> 'search box' that is always visible and always in the same place?  If
>>> 'there is not enough room' then perhaps there's too much going on.
>>> 
>> 
>> Or, speaking about the vast majority of the web, there would be enough room
>> if it wasn't already taken by thousand of things that are completely useless
>> for the user.
>
> Why is it that people who want to actually *sell* you something create
> a pathogenic exfoliation of fulminating special effects and
> interlocking twisty little passages, impenetrable, circularly
> connected, burdened with megabytes of irrelevant code and animations

*applause*

-- 
Today is Sweetmorn, the 32nd day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3181
                  I don't have an attitude problem.
    If you have a problem with my attitude, that's your problem.

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#8618

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 7:19:43 AM UTC+2, Mike Spencer wrote:
> fmassei@gmail.com writes:
> > Or, speaking about the vast majority of the web, there would be enough room
> > if it wasn't already taken by thousand of things that are completely
> > useless for the user.
> 
> Why is it that people who want to actually *sell* you something create
> a pathogenic exfoliation of fulminating special effects and
> interlocking twisty little passages, impenetrable, circularly
> connected, burdened with megabytes of irrelevant code and animations
> while people who have a few, perhaps useful or enlightening things to say
> and expect little reader response present some simple text and maybe a
> few pics?
> 
> If you're thinking of buying a new ACME rocket sled, go to the ACME
> web site and try to find info on an ACME product in current use or in use
> a couple of years ago.  If that search is easy to, then consider the
> new ACME sled. If it's a can of worms, forget ACME.
> 

People don't direct their browsers to acme.com, they type "ACME" in the
browser bar, it calls google, which will return the most relevant results
(where "relevant" refers for their pockets, of course, this is how they make
money). Chances are that acme.com doesn't even show up in the first page,
which is filled with ads and links of re-sellers and their bloated websites
optimized for getting those first places instead of giving the user a decent
experience.

You may build a nice website, with just what the users want, but nobody will
ever find out. In fact, the web is full of these kind of websites, but think
about the last time that you actually visited one.

Ciao!

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#8620

fmassei@gmail.com wrote:
> People don't direct their browsers to acme.com, they type "ACME" in the
> browser bar, it calls google, which will return the most relevant results
> (where "relevant" refers for their pockets, of course, this is how they make
> money). Chances are that acme.com doesn't even show up in the first page,
> which is filled with ads and links of re-sellers and their bloated websites
> optimized for getting those first places instead of giving the user a decent
> experience.

My experience with duckduckgo (as opposed to google) is that
the desired offical website appears among the first two or
three entries, and is actually labeled "official" on the
search result page.  I tried ACME with duckduckgo just now.
The first dozen or two entries all went directly to firms
with ACME in their name, with the two exceptions being
wikipedia links: the first to the cartoon reference, and the
second to a disambiguation page.  YMMV.

-- 
Bill Evans / Box 1224 / Mariposa, CA 95338 / (209)742-4720
Mail-To: wje@acm.org   -- PGP encrypted mail preferred. --
pgpkey.mariposabill.com for public key.    Key #: 8D8B521B
PGPprint: 0A9C 3545 8FFF 7501 6265 1519 40FF 76F9 8D8B 521B

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#8621

On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 12:38:32 PM UTC+2, Bill Evans wrote:
> fmassei@gmail.com wrote:
> > People don't direct their browsers to acme.com, they type "ACME" in the
> > browser bar, it calls google, which will return the most relevant results
> > (where "relevant" refers for their pockets, of course, this is how they
> > make money). Chances are that acme.com doesn't even show up in the first
> >  page, which is filled with ads and links of re-sellers and their bloated
> > websites optimized for getting those first places instead of giving the
> > user a decent experience.
> 
> My experience with duckduckgo (as opposed to google) is that
> the desired offical website appears among the first two or
> three entries, and is actually labeled "official" on the
> search result page.  I tried ACME with duckduckgo just now.
> The first dozen or two entries all went directly to firms
> with ACME in their name, with the two exceptions being
> wikipedia links: the first to the cartoon reference, and the
> second to a disambiguation page.  YMMV.
> 

Unfortunately the number of users like you (and me) is statistically
insignificant: this gives the SEO people all the reasons to try to make
Google's and Bing's bots happier than normal users, which in turn brings all
the websites to same level of bloating. Using another search engine could
save you from some of the worst ones, but probably the most relevant website
for your search is made following the same crappy SEO rules.

Ciao!

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#8629

fmassei@gmail.com writes:

> On Tuesday, September 8, 2015 at 7:19:43 AM UTC+2, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> If you're thinking of buying a new ACME rocket sled, go to the ACME
>> web site and try to find info on an ACME product in current use or in use
>> a couple of years ago.  If that search is easy to, then consider the
>> new ACME sled. If it's a can of worms, forget ACME.
>> 
> 
> People don't direct their browsers to acme.com, they type "ACME" in the
> browser bar...

Oh, dang.  I forgot about "people". AFAIR, I've never used the pane in
the browser bar. 

> You may build a nice website, with just what the users want, but
> nobody will ever find out. In fact, the web is full of these kind of
> websites, but think about the last time that you actually visited
> one.

These days, when ordinary, non-PHB and non-hackerish mortals want to
create a web page, they go to one of the on-line interactive services.
Those services tend to impose all the fvyyl-fuvg bells and whistles on
their otherwise typically simple material.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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