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Mozilla's new vision

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  Mozilla's new vision Ben Collver <bencollver@tilde.pink> - 2023-12-30 17:34 +0000
    Re: Mozilla's new vision Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.moc> - 2023-12-30 21:16 +0300
      Re: Mozilla's new vision Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2023-12-30 19:24 +0000
        Re: Mozilla's new vision not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2023-12-31 07:05 +1000
          Re: Mozilla's new vision Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2023-12-31 09:40 +0000
      Re: Mozilla's new vision Ben Collver <bencollver@tilde.pink> - 2023-12-30 22:12 +0000
        Re: Mozilla's new vision kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2023-12-31 00:50 +0000
    Re: Mozilla's new vision Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> - 2023-12-30 17:48 -0300
      Re: Mozilla's new vision not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2023-12-31 07:38 +1000
        Re: Mozilla's new vision Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2023-12-31 09:34 +0000
          Re: Mozilla's new vision not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2024-01-01 07:01 +1000
      Re: Mozilla's new vision yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2023-12-31 03:12 +0042
      Re: Mozilla's new vision yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2023-12-31 03:13 +0042
        Re: Mozilla's new vision Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> - 2023-12-31 00:37 -0300
          Re: Mozilla's new vision immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-01-02 00:56 +0100
            Re: Mozilla's new vision Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> - 2024-01-02 01:07 -0300
              Re: Mozilla's new vision immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-01-02 18:30 +0100
                Re: Mozilla's new vision Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> - 2024-01-03 03:05 -0300
                  Re: Mozilla's new vision yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-01-03 09:10 +0042
                    Re: Mozilla's new vision Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> - 2024-01-03 16:22 -0300
                      Re: Mozilla's new vision yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-01-03 21:56 +0042
                      Re: Mozilla's new vision immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-01-06 04:17 +0100
                        Re: Mozilla's new vision Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> - 2024-01-06 01:32 -0300
              Re: Mozilla's new vision Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2024-01-03 01:56 -0400
                Re: Mozilla's new vision Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> - 2024-01-03 16:15 -0300
      Re: Mozilla's new vision Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> - 2023-12-31 10:43 +0100
        Re: Mozilla's new vision Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2023-12-31 10:55 +0000
          Re: Mozilla's new vision Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-01-01 10:13 +0100
            Re: Mozilla's new vision Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2024-01-01 17:11 -0400
              Re: Mozilla's new vision Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-01-02 08:34 +0100
            Re: Mozilla's new vision Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2024-01-03 12:00 +0000
              Re: Mozilla's new vision Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-01-03 14:43 +0100
                Re: Mozilla's new vision Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2024-01-03 17:48 +0000
                  Re: Mozilla's new vision Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-01-03 20:45 +0100
      Re: Mozilla's new vision Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> - 2023-12-31 12:10 +0000
        Re: Mozilla's new vision Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2023-12-31 13:36 +0000
          Re: Mozilla's new vision Blue-Maned_Hawk <bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> - 2023-12-31 19:28 +0000
        Re: Mozilla's new vision kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2023-12-31 15:10 +0000
      Re: Mozilla's new vision cr0c0d1le <cr0c0d1le.ewlkg@8shield.net> - 2024-01-01 13:41 -0500
        Re: Mozilla's new vision Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> - 2024-01-02 01:07 -0300
        Re: Mozilla's new vision Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-01-02 08:36 +0100
          Re: Mozilla's new vision candycanearter07 <no@thanks.net> - 2024-01-02 17:35 -0600
            Re: Mozilla's new vision immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-01-06 03:47 +0100
      Re: Mozilla's new vision immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-01-02 00:48 +0100
        Re: Mozilla's new vision Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> - 2024-01-02 08:37 +0100
          Re: Mozilla's new vision Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-01-02 09:01 +0000
            Re: Mozilla's new vision immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-01-02 18:28 +0100
            Re: Mozilla's new vision not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2024-01-03 06:48 +1000
            Re: Mozilla's new vision Andreas Kempe <kempe@lysator.liu.se> - 2024-01-03 01:19 +0000
              Re: Mozilla's new vision Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> - 2024-01-03 03:25 -0300
              Re: Mozilla's new vision immibis <news@immibis.com> - 2024-01-06 04:33 +0100
                Re: Mozilla's new vision Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> - 2024-01-06 01:34 -0300

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#23811

Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:

> yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> writes:
>>
>> Welcome to the anonymous Emacsers!  Take a seat, grab a cookie...
>
> :-) 

Btw.: We meet at/in(?) emacs.ch and the door is always open.

Grab mastodon.el if the WebUI is too much blingbling.

-- 
I do not bite, I just want to play.

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#23829

On 1/3/24 20:22, Julieta Shem wrote:
> 
> I like it because of the Lisp language. 
 >

I'd bet a large number of Lisp functions are inherently irrelevant in or 
not compatible with a browser's text editor context. For example, saving 
a file.

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#23831

immibis <news@immibis.com> writes:

> On 1/3/24 20:22, Julieta Shem wrote:
>> I like it because of the Lisp language. 
>
> I'd bet a large number of Lisp functions are inherently irrelevant in
> or not compatible with a browser's text editor context. For example,
> saving a file.

What I had mostly in mind was text navigation, syntax coloring et
cetera.  I run the GNU EMACS, but with a font designed by someone else.

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#23792

Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:

> For instance, learning is very expensive.  Each new program requires you
> to even learn how to type.  If you give lay users the ability to find
> their favorite editor wherever they go, they will begin to care about
> that too --- not just programmers.

The slogan, "Life-long learning" was supposed to be about learning
*new* stuff after you left school, as you grew older, not about
learning the same stuff over and over again.

I'm almost 82 and a long-time devotee of life-long learning.  But for
the last decade or two, as the net gradually became a tool of commerce
and finance, I have to espend effort to avoid having to learn the same
stuff over and over again.  Just an example: I'm still using the same
version of Emacs I compiled in 1999 for my first Linux box.  With
every upgrade of my Linux system, I get a new Emacs with which I
struggle for a few hours before reverting to the old version.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#23808

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:

> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
>
>> For instance, learning is very expensive.  Each new program requires you
>> to even learn how to type.  If you give lay users the ability to find
>> their favorite editor wherever they go, they will begin to care about
>> that too --- not just programmers.
>
> The slogan, "Life-long learning" was supposed to be about learning
> *new* stuff after you left school, as you grew older, not about
> learning the same stuff over and over again.
>
> I'm almost 82 and a long-time devotee of life-long learning.  But for
> the last decade or two, as the net gradually became a tool of commerce
> and finance, I have to espend effort to avoid having to learn the same
> stuff over and over again.  Just an example: I'm still using the same
> version of Emacs I compiled in 1999 for my first Linux box.  With
> every upgrade of my Linux system, I get a new Emacs with which I
> struggle for a few hours before reverting to the old version.

``A man after my own heart.''  I'm roughly half your age, but I noticed
that very quickly too --- unless we protect ourselves, we'll spend our
entire lives relearning the same things.  I did choose the GNU EMACS are
my life-long editor, but I also had to freeze it in my own package.
This is also why I chose Windows as a desktop, even though I use it as a
POSIX syste.  (I have a ZIP package of the tools I need and all it takes
for me to recover from a crash is to download it and unpackage it.  Life
is more difficult on UNIX systems because libraries evolve very quickly
without sufficient backward compatibility, an insane objective given the
sheer number of different libraries out there.)

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#23751

Am 30.12.2023 um 17:48:43 Uhr schrieb Julieta Shem:

> Without a Free Software browser, the web will be completely dominated
> by corporate actors.  Intelligent people will leave and look for
> alternatives. 

Pale Moon exists.

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#23752

Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> Am 30.12.2023 um 17:48:43 Uhr schrieb Julieta Shem:
> 
> > Without a Free Software browser, the web will be completely dominated
> > by corporate actors.  Intelligent people will leave and look for
> > alternatives. 
> 
> Pale Moon exists.

And so does Firefox in 2023.  But suppose Mozilla decides to give up
maintaining it.  What happens when Firefox or Pale Moon are 5+ years behind
the state of the web?

Old browsers can hang on for a long time if you don't care about security
updates, but it gets increasingly difficult when sites refuse to work with
them.

It is possible to use Dillo or NetSurf as your daily driver, but good luck
doing your banking with it.

Theo

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#23758

Am 31.12.2023 um 10:55:59 Uhr schrieb Theo:

> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> > Am 30.12.2023 um 17:48:43 Uhr schrieb Julieta Shem:
> >   
> > > Without a Free Software browser, the web will be completely
> > > dominated by corporate actors.  Intelligent people will leave and
> > > look for alternatives.   
> > 
> > Pale Moon exists.  
> 
> And so does Firefox in 2023.  But suppose Mozilla decides to give up
> maintaining it.  What happens when Firefox or Pale Moon are 5+ years
> behind the state of the web?

I think for Firefox enough volunteers exist to create a fork, like Pale
Moon did, to continue development.

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#23767

Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> writes:

> I think for Firefox enough volunteers exist to create a fork, like Pale
> Moon did, to continue development.

How does that relate to the future of Seamonkey? (My preferred browser.)

Seamonkey, despite best efforts of developers/maintainers seems to
have some trouble keeping up with the latest complexities of
javascript -- the only aspect that ever causes me trouble.  Can
Seamonkey become a viable fork of FF?

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#23778

Am 01.01.2024 um 17:11:51 Uhr schrieb Mike Spencer:

> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> writes:
> 
> > I think for Firefox enough volunteers exist to create a fork, like
> > Pale Moon did, to continue development.  
> 
> How does that relate to the future of Seamonkey? (My preferred
> browser.)

Mozilla doesn't like SM anymore - for years.

FF development is entirely different for years and IIRC they also
refused to move to UXP (the platform Pale Moon is based on).

> Seamonkey, despite best efforts of developers/maintainers seems to
> have some trouble keeping up with the latest complexities of
> javascript -- the only aspect that ever causes me trouble.

Same applies to PM, but I like it anyway because it is user-oriented
and customizable.

> Can Seamonkey become a viable fork of FF?

I don't think, too different.
If it is possible to use only its engine, then yes, but that is rather
unlikely.

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#23796

Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> Am 31.12.2023 um 10:55:59 Uhr schrieb Theo:
> 
> > Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> > > Am 30.12.2023 um 17:48:43 Uhr schrieb Julieta Shem:
> > >   
> > > > Without a Free Software browser, the web will be completely
> > > > dominated by corporate actors.  Intelligent people will leave and
> > > > look for alternatives.   
> > > 
> > > Pale Moon exists.  
> > 
> > And so does Firefox in 2023.  But suppose Mozilla decides to give up
> > maintaining it.  What happens when Firefox or Pale Moon are 5+ years
> > behind the state of the web?
> 
> I think for Firefox enough volunteers exist to create a fork, like Pale
> Moon did, to continue development.

There are about 5 developers of Pale Moon, with one doing 90% of the commits:
https://repo.palemoon.org/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon/commits/branch/master
- a handful of updates every month, mostly tweaks to keep it working with
various websites (by lying about the User-Agent).

There were hundreds of reported vulnerabilities in Chromium in 2023 alone:
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=chromium
and similar for Firefox:
https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=firefox

There's no chance of those volunteers being able to maintain a secure
browser with that level of effort.

Theo

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#23797

Am 03.01.2024 um 12:00:29 Uhr schrieb Theo:

> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> > Am 31.12.2023 um 10:55:59 Uhr schrieb Theo:
> >   
> > > Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:  
> > > > Am 30.12.2023 um 17:48:43 Uhr schrieb Julieta Shem:
> > > >     
> > > > > Without a Free Software browser, the web will be completely
> > > > > dominated by corporate actors.  Intelligent people will leave
> > > > > and look for alternatives.     
> > > > 
> > > > Pale Moon exists.    
> > > 
> > > And so does Firefox in 2023.  But suppose Mozilla decides to give
> > > up maintaining it.  What happens when Firefox or Pale Moon are 5+
> > > years behind the state of the web?  
> > 
> > I think for Firefox enough volunteers exist to create a fork, like
> > Pale Moon did, to continue development.  
> 
> There are about 5 developers of Pale Moon, with one doing 90% of the
> commits:
> https://repo.palemoon.org/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon/commits/branch/master
> - a handful of updates every month, mostly tweaks to keep it working
> with various websites (by lying about the User-Agent).

Because many crappy websites use the UA to exclude other browsers.

> There were hundreds of reported vulnerabilities in Chromium in 2023
> alone: https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=chromium
> and similar for Firefox:
> https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=firefox

PM is a fork of it and FF changed a lot.
In the release notes you can find the stuff about fixed
security-relevant bugs also fixed in FF.

> There's no chance of those volunteers being able to maintain a secure
> browser with that level of effort.

Can you confirm that those bugs also exist in PM?

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#23807

Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> Am 03.01.2024 um 12:00:29 Uhr schrieb Theo:
> > There are about 5 developers of Pale Moon, with one doing 90% of the
> > commits:
> > https://repo.palemoon.org/MoonchildProductions/Pale-Moon/commits/branch/master
> > - a handful of updates every month, mostly tweaks to keep it working
> > with various websites (by lying about the User-Agent).
> 
> Because many crappy websites use the UA to exclude other browsers.

ie not actually 'development', merely tweaking the per-site settings.

> > There were hundreds of reported vulnerabilities in Chromium in 2023
> > alone: https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=chromium
> > and similar for Firefox:
> > https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=firefox
> 
> PM is a fork of it and FF changed a lot.
> In the release notes you can find the stuff about fixed
> security-relevant bugs also fixed in FF.

That's something.  The release cadence seems more frequent than I expected.

> > There's no chance of those volunteers being able to maintain a secure
> > browser with that level of effort.
> 
> Can you confirm that those bugs also exist in PM?

I'm not wading through the hundreds of them to confirm individually, but
since PM is a fork of FF it's likely that many of them do.

Theo

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#23810

Am 03.01.2024 um 17:48:31 Uhr schrieb Theo:

> I'm not wading through the hundreds of them to confirm individually,
> but since PM is a fork of FF it's likely that many of them do.

They forked years ago and FF changes a lot with Quantum and newer
releases, I don't know how much of the old FF code that PM is/was based
on still exists in current FF.

Many of the CVEs found in Firefox aren't applicable to PM according to
the release notes.

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#23753

Julieta Shem wrote:

> Without a Free Software browser, the web will be completely dominated by
> corporate actors.  Intelligent people will leave and look for
> alternatives.  We could go back to gopher-like services.  In fact, see
> the gemini protocol.

Frankly, i don't see why we should bother with specialised hypertext 
protocols when FTP already exists.



-- 
Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to Hawk│/blu.mɛin.dʰak/
│he/him/his/himself/Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site
I am only behind if you measure by who is currently winning!

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#23754

Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:

> Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to Hawk│blu.mɛin.dʰak
> │he/him/his/himself/Mr.

Is that what you intended?

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#23756

Andy Burns wrote:

> Blue-Maned_Hawk wrote:
> 
>> Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to Hawk│blu.mɛin.dʰak
>> │he/him/his/himself/Mr.
> 
> Is that what you intended?

No, my newsreader by a bug mojibakes nonascii.  Since it's not my fault 
that it happened, it's not my responsibility to fix it.



-- 
Blue-Maned_Hawk│shortens to Hawk│/blu.mɛin.dʰak/
│he/him/his/himself/Mr.
blue-maned_hawk.srht.site

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#23755

Blue-Maned_Hawk  <bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>Julieta Shem wrote:
>
>> Without a Free Software browser, the web will be completely dominated by
>> corporate actors.  Intelligent people will leave and look for
>> alternatives.  We could go back to gopher-like services.  In fact, see
>> the gemini protocol.
>
>Frankly, i don't see why we should bother with specialised hypertext 
>protocols when FTP already exists.

Those specialized hypertext protocols sit ON TOP OF ftp.  Or http, or https,
or carrier pigeon or what have you.

They do not replace ftp, but supplant it.
--scott
-- 
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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#23761

Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:

> Ben Collver <bencollver@tilde.pink> writes:
>
> The web is not control-resistant because it's difficult to build a
> browser.  So difficult that you can only compete if you're a big group.
> So there is no diversity in the offer.  Without diversity, its survival
> is greatly threatened.
To be honest, I don't think web browsers will still be a thing a
decade from now. It will all be 'apps' consuming some kind of
standardised API.

Just my two cents.

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#23776

cr0c0d1le <cr0c0d1le.ewlkg@8shield.net> writes:

> Julieta Shem <jshem@yaxenu.org> writes:
>
>> Ben Collver <bencollver@tilde.pink> writes:
>>
>> The web is not control-resistant because it's difficult to build a
>> browser.  So difficult that you can only compete if you're a big group.
>> So there is no diversity in the offer.  Without diversity, its survival
>> is greatly threatened.
> To be honest, I don't think web browsers will still be a thing a
> decade from now. It will all be 'apps' consuming some kind of
> standardised API.

Good point.

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