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terminal only for two weeks

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  terminal only for two weeks Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com.invalid> - 2024-11-25 13:34 +0000
    Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-25 22:18 +0100
    Re: terminal only for two weeks Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-25 21:52 +0000
      Re: terminal only for two weeks Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2024-11-26 03:18 -0400
        Re: terminal only for two weeks Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-26 21:28 +0000
      Re: terminal only for two weeks yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-11-26 09:22 +0042
        Re: terminal only for two weeks Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-26 21:24 +0000
      Re: terminal only for two weeks candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-11-30 01:20 +0000
        Re: terminal only for two weeks yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-11-30 04:22 +0042
          Re: terminal only for two weeks candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-12-01 20:40 +0000
        Re: terminal only for two weeks Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-30 03:52 +0000
          Re: terminal only for two weeks candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-12-01 20:40 +0000
            Re: terminal only for two weeks Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-01 23:24 +0000
              Re: terminal only for two weeks candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-12-02 02:00 +0000
                Re: terminal only for two weeks Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-02 05:41 +0000
    Re: terminal only for two weeks John McCue <jmccue@qball.jmcunx.com> - 2024-11-26 03:13 +0000
      Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-26 10:22 +0100
        Re: terminal only for two weeks yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-11-26 12:15 +0042
          Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-26 16:36 +0100
            Re: terminal only for two weeks not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2024-11-27 07:52 +1000
              Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-27 10:51 +0100
                Re: terminal only for two weeks not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2024-11-28 06:44 +1000
                  Re: terminal only for two weeks yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-11-28 05:54 +0042
                  Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-28 10:52 +0100
                    Re: terminal only for two weeks not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2024-11-29 06:17 +1000
                      Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-28 22:05 +0100
                      Re: terminal only for two weeks yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-11-29 02:19 +0042
                        Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-29 10:38 +0100
                          Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-29 22:39 +0100
            Re: terminal only for two weeks Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2024-11-26 17:57 -0400
              Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-27 10:54 +0100
                Re: terminal only for two weeks Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2024-11-28 01:41 -0400
                  Re: terminal only for two weeks Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-11-28 06:42 +0000
                  Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-11-28 10:56 +0100
                  URIs within URIs: google.com/url?q= et al. Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2024-12-20 18:42 +0000
                    Re: URIs within URIs: google.com/url?q= et al. Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2024-12-20 19:03 +0000
                    Re: URIs within URIs: google.com/url?q= et al. Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2024-12-22 01:39 -0400
              Re: terminal only for two weeks Oregonian Haruspex <no_email@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-04 06:11 +0000
                Re: terminal only for two weeks Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-04 06:42 +0000
                  Re: terminal only for two weeks candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2024-12-04 14:30 +0000
                    Re: terminal only for two weeks Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-05 01:46 +0000
                      Re: terminal only for two weeks not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2024-12-08 07:52 +1000
                        Re: terminal only for two weeks root <NoEMail@home.org> - 2024-12-08 14:11 +0000
                          Re: terminal only for two weeks Bozo User <anthk@disroot.org> - 2025-01-12 23:01 +0000
                            Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2025-01-13 10:46 +0100
                              Re: terminal only for two weeks not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-01-14 06:52 +1000
                                Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2025-01-14 18:54 +0100
                            web Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-01-16 07:55 +0000
                              Re: web not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-01-17 07:10 +1000
                                Re: web yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2025-01-17 04:58 +0042
                                  Re: web anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> - 2025-03-22 21:52 +0000
                                Re: web Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-01-18 14:05 +0000
                                  Re: web not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2025-01-19 09:09 +1000
                                    Re: web candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-01-29 20:10 +0000
                                      Re: web Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-02-04 21:42 +0000
                                  Re: web Ben Collver <bencollver@tilde.pink> - 2025-01-19 14:47 +0000
                                    Re: web yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2025-01-19 16:14 +0042
                                      Re: web snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) - 2025-01-19 16:05 +0000
                                      Re: web Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-01-19 19:15 +0000
                                      Re: web Ben Collver <bencollver@tilde.pink> - 2025-01-20 15:37 +0000
                                        Re: web Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-01-24 18:45 +0000
                                      Re: web news@zzo38computer.org.invalid - 2025-01-20 11:23 -0800
                              Re: web Dave Yeo <dave.r.yeo@gmail.com> - 2025-01-16 18:04 -0800
                          Re: terminal only for two weeks Bozo User <anthk@disroot.org> - 2025-01-12 23:01 +0000
                    Re: terminal only for two weeks yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2024-12-05 06:34 +0042
                      Re: terminal only for two weeks yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> - 2025-01-16 11:42 +0042
        Re: terminal only for two weeks anthk <anthk@openbsd.home> - 2025-03-22 21:52 +0000
    Re: terminal only for two weeks Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> - 2024-11-28 12:45 +0200
    Re: terminal only for two weeks Bozo User <anthk@disroot.org> - 2025-01-12 23:01 +0000
      Re: terminal only for two weeks Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-01-12 22:03 -0300
        Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2025-01-13 10:48 +0100
          Re: terminal only for two weeks Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-01-13 16:24 -0300
            Re: terminal only for two weeks D <nospam@example.net> - 2025-01-14 18:50 +0100
            Re: terminal only for two weeks Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-01-15 22:10 -0300
              Re: terminal only for two weeks Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2025-01-16 04:15 +0000
              Re: terminal only for two weeks Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> - 2025-01-16 15:58 +1000
              Re: terminal only for two weeks Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-01-21 05:31 +0000
              Re: terminal only for two weeks Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> - 2025-01-23 19:33 +0000
                Re: terminal only for two weeks Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-02-12 13:12 -0300
                  Re: terminal only for two weeks Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2025-02-16 20:55 +0000
                    Re: terminal only for two weeks Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-02-16 22:54 -0300
                      Re: terminal only for two weeks Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-02-16 22:56 -0300
                      Re: terminal only for two weeks Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-02-17 03:41 +0000
                        Re: terminal only for two weeks Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-02-19 13:02 -0300
                      Re: terminal only for two weeks kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) - 2025-02-17 22:18 +0000
                        Re: terminal only for two weeks Salvador Mirzo <smirzo@example.com> - 2025-02-19 13:03 -0300

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#26195

On Tue, 27 Nov 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, yeti wrote:
>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>> I have been thinking about moving the reading part of web browsing
>>>> into the terminal as well, but haven't found a browser I'm happy
>>>> with.
>>>
>>> I use Elinks, Emacs/EWW and W3m, but none of them can replace the scary
>>> fullfat browsers.  They seem to just fit Smolweb stuff (FTP, Gemini,
>>> Gopher and similar).
>>
>> True.
>
> I like seeing useful images, so prefer Dillo and Links (the latter
> does support display via the framebuffer so you can run it
> graphically without X).

For some reason, I never managed to get the framebuffer to work. Have no 
idea why. =( I would like to get it to work though. Dillo was a good tip! 
I did play with it for a bit, but then forgot about it. Maybe the reason 
was a lack of tabs or buffers. I think links or maybe it was elinks, had a 
way for me to replicate tabs or vi buffers in the browser. It was super 
convenient!

Basically my ideal would be to move all my "reading" to a text based 
browser, so that I would only have to keep work related stuff in the 
massive GUI browser. All the other 60+ tabs, would live in the text 
browser where I would reference them when needed.

>>>> Maybe it would be possible to write a kind of "pre-processor" that
>>>> formats web sites with a text based browser in mind?
>>>
>>> Despite me finding this solution really scary, something like that
>>> indeed exists:
>>>
>>>    <https://www.brow.sh/>
>>
>> Ah yes... I've seen this before! I did drop it due to its dependency on
>> FF, but the concept is similar. My idea was to aggressively filter a web
>> page before passing it on to elinks or similar.
>>
>> Perhaps rewriting it a bit in order to avoid the looooooong list of menu
>> options or links that always come up at the top of the page, before the
>> content of the page shows after a couple of page downs (this happens for
>> instance if I go to wikipedia).
>
> Lucky if it's just a couple of page-downs, I can easily be
> hammering the button on some insane pages where 10% is the actual
> content and 90% is menu links. Often it's quicker to press End
> and work up from the bottom, but many websites have a few pages of
> junk at the bottom too now, so you have to hunt for the little
> sliver of content in the middle.

I know... as a perfectionist this does not go down well with me. ;)

>> Instead parsing it, and adding those links at the bottom, removing
>> javascript, and perhaps passing on only the text.
>
> A similar approach is taken by frogfind.com, except rather than
> parsing the links and putting them at the end, it detetes them,
> which makes it impossible to navigate many websites. It does the
> other things you mention, but the link rewriting would probably be
> the hardest part to get right with a universal parser.

Did not know about frogfind! This could be a great start to improve the 
readability! In my home brew rss2email script, I automatically create 
archive.is links, so that when I want to read articles behind paywalls, 
archive.is is already built in.

I imagine that I could whip up something similar, running page through 
http://frogfind.com/read.php?a=xyz... !

> Site-specific front-ends are a simpler goal. This is a list of ones
> that work in Dillo, and therefore without Javascript:
> https://alex.envs.net/dillectory/
>
> Of course then you have the problem of them breaking as soon as the
> target site/API changes or blocks them.

This is the truth!

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#26199

D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, yeti wrote:
>>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>> I have been thinking about moving the reading part of web browsing
>>>>> into the terminal as well, but haven't found a browser I'm happy
>>>>> with.
>>>>
>>>> I use Elinks, Emacs/EWW and W3m, but none of them can replace the scary
>>>> fullfat browsers.  They seem to just fit Smolweb stuff (FTP, Gemini,
>>>> Gopher and similar).
>>>
>>> True.
>>
>> I like seeing useful images, so prefer Dillo and Links (the latter
>> does support display via the framebuffer so you can run it
>> graphically without X).
> 
> For some reason, I never managed to get the framebuffer to work. Have no 
> idea why. =( I would like to get it to work though.

I guess the framebuffer is working for the console, otherwise it
will probably be a low-res BIOS character display like in DOS. So
either a permissions problem or do you know that you need to start
Links with the "-g" option?

> Dillo was a good tip! 
> I did play with it for a bit, but then forgot about it. Maybe the reason 
> was a lack of tabs or buffers. I think links or maybe it was elinks, had a 
> way for me to replicate tabs or vi buffers in the browser. It was super 
> convenient!

Links doesn't do tabs, eLinks might but I haven't used it much.
Dillo has tabs, but isn't great for managing huge numbers of them
(although I avoid trying to do that anywhere).

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#26201

not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:

> Links doesn't do tabs, eLinks might

Elinks does.


... but now for something completely different:

Have you seen Twin?

    <https://github.com/cosmos72/twin>

-- 
1. Hitchhiker 5: (101) "You just come along with me and have a good
time.  The Galaxy's a fun place. You'll need to have this fish in your
ear."

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#26205

On Wed, 28 Nov 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Nov 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, yeti wrote:
>>>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>> I have been thinking about moving the reading part of web browsing
>>>>>> into the terminal as well, but haven't found a browser I'm happy
>>>>>> with.
>>>>>
>>>>> I use Elinks, Emacs/EWW and W3m, but none of them can replace the scary
>>>>> fullfat browsers.  They seem to just fit Smolweb stuff (FTP, Gemini,
>>>>> Gopher and similar).
>>>>
>>>> True.
>>>
>>> I like seeing useful images, so prefer Dillo and Links (the latter
>>> does support display via the framebuffer so you can run it
>>> graphically without X).
>>
>> For some reason, I never managed to get the framebuffer to work. Have no
>> idea why. =( I would like to get it to work though.
>
> I guess the framebuffer is working for the console, otherwise it
> will probably be a low-res BIOS character display like in DOS. So
> either a permissions problem or do you know that you need to start
> Links with the "-g" option?

Ahh... ok, that might explain it. If it is console only, then it might not 
work in my terminal emulator, and -g just opens a window in X.

I would have liked for it to shows images in the terminal, but maybe I 
need to find another terminal emulator for that to work? I think I use the 
default one that comes with xfce.

>> Dillo was a good tip!
>> I did play with it for a bit, but then forgot about it. Maybe the reason
>> was a lack of tabs or buffers. I think links or maybe it was elinks, had a
>> way for me to replicate tabs or vi buffers in the browser. It was super
>> convenient!
>
> Links doesn't do tabs, eLinks might but I haven't used it much.
> Dillo has tabs, but isn't great for managing huge numbers of them
> (although I avoid trying to do that anywhere).

Hmm, I should revisit that. I did manage to hack together something 
similar to buffers, but don't remember at the moment what I did exactly.

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#26210

D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Nov 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 27 Nov 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, yeti wrote:
>>>>>> I use Elinks, Emacs/EWW and W3m, but none of them can replace the scary
>>>>>> fullfat browsers.  They seem to just fit Smolweb stuff (FTP, Gemini,
>>>>>> Gopher and similar).
>>>>>
>>>>> True.
>>>>
>>>> I like seeing useful images, so prefer Dillo and Links (the latter
>>>> does support display via the framebuffer so you can run it
>>>> graphically without X).
>>>
>>> For some reason, I never managed to get the framebuffer to work. Have no
>>> idea why. =( I would like to get it to work though.
>>
>> I guess the framebuffer is working for the console, otherwise it
>> will probably be a low-res BIOS character display like in DOS. So
>> either a permissions problem or do you know that you need to start
>> Links with the "-g" option?
> 
> Ahh... ok, that might explain it. If it is console only, then it might not 
> work in my terminal emulator, and -g just opens a window in X.

Certainly, in X it'll always be in a separate window.

> I would have liked for it to shows images in the terminal, but maybe I 
> need to find another terminal emulator for that to work? I think I use the 
> default one that comes with xfce.

W3m displays images in XTerm and other terminal emulators, so that
might be what you want for a browser. I'm not sure if there's a
list of terminal emulators that support image display from it.
This page mentions that some require changes to the configuration:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/W3m

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#26211

On Thu, 29 Nov 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Nov 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 27 Nov 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, yeti wrote:
>>>>>>> I use Elinks, Emacs/EWW and W3m, but none of them can replace the scary
>>>>>>> fullfat browsers.  They seem to just fit Smolweb stuff (FTP, Gemini,
>>>>>>> Gopher and similar).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> True.
>>>>>
>>>>> I like seeing useful images, so prefer Dillo and Links (the latter
>>>>> does support display via the framebuffer so you can run it
>>>>> graphically without X).
>>>>
>>>> For some reason, I never managed to get the framebuffer to work. Have no
>>>> idea why. =( I would like to get it to work though.
>>>
>>> I guess the framebuffer is working for the console, otherwise it
>>> will probably be a low-res BIOS character display like in DOS. So
>>> either a permissions problem or do you know that you need to start
>>> Links with the "-g" option?
>>
>> Ahh... ok, that might explain it. If it is console only, then it might not
>> work in my terminal emulator, and -g just opens a window in X.
>
> Certainly, in X it'll always be in a separate window.
>
>> I would have liked for it to shows images in the terminal, but maybe I
>> need to find another terminal emulator for that to work? I think I use the
>> default one that comes with xfce.
>
> W3m displays images in XTerm and other terminal emulators, so that
> might be what you want for a browser. I'm not sure if there's a
> list of terminal emulators that support image display from it.
> This page mentions that some require changes to the configuration:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/W3m

I did go back to play with elinks today, and it does seem like the text 
based browser that gets absolutely closest to what I need with the ability 
to auto save sessions.

I think that together wish frogfind.com I have found my temporary 
solution for the terminal! It is also trivial to migrate my open "reading 
tabs" from firefox to elinks by just doing a save all open tabs, and then 
massaging the exported bookmarks file a bit and then just open all of the 
sites from the command line. =)

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#26212

not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:

> W3m displays images in XTerm and other terminal emulators, so that
> might be what you want for a browser. I'm not sure if there's a
> list of terminal emulators that support image display from it.
> This page mentions that some require changes to the configuration:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/W3m

I think W3M seems to put another window layer atop the terminal to
display images.  It works, but my main use case for W3M is as man page
viewer W3MMAN (aliased to man), so I don't care much for it's image
capabilities.

Elinks has a `./configure` option to enable Sixels, which I did, and I
see the generated binary being linked to `libsixel`, found the run-time
option to enable Sixel graphics, but I never see any images displayed.

    <https://github.com/rkd77/elinks>

If someone succeeds with this, please ping me.

-- 
Die Partei |                Martin Sonneborn               | Die Partei
Die Partei |        Gespräch am Küchentisch, Teil II       | Die Partei
Die Partei | <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2C21SJd5SVE> | Die Partei

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#26213

On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, yeti wrote:

> not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:
>
>> W3m displays images in XTerm and other terminal emulators, so that
>> might be what you want for a browser. I'm not sure if there's a
>> list of terminal emulators that support image display from it.
>> This page mentions that some require changes to the configuration:
>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/W3m
>
> I think W3M seems to put another window layer atop the terminal to
> display images.  It works, but my main use case for W3M is as man page
> viewer W3MMAN (aliased to man), so I don't care much for it's image
> capabilities.
>
> Elinks has a `./configure` option to enable Sixels, which I did, and I
> see the generated binary being linked to `libsixel`, found the run-time
> option to enable Sixel graphics, but I never see any images displayed.
>
>    <https://github.com/rkd77/elinks>
>
> If someone succeeds with this, please ping me.
>

Thank you for mentioning it. I will have a look!

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#26215

On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, D wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, 29 Nov 2024, yeti wrote:
>
>> not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:
>> 
>>> W3m displays images in XTerm and other terminal emulators, so that
>>> might be what you want for a browser. I'm not sure if there's a
>>> list of terminal emulators that support image display from it.
>>> This page mentions that some require changes to the configuration:
>>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/W3m
>> 
>> I think W3M seems to put another window layer atop the terminal to
>> display images.  It works, but my main use case for W3M is as man page
>> viewer W3MMAN (aliased to man), so I don't care much for it's image
>> capabilities.
>> 
>> Elinks has a `./configure` option to enable Sixels, which I did, and I
>> see the generated binary being linked to `libsixel`, found the run-time
>> option to enable Sixel graphics, but I never see any images displayed.
>>
>>    <https://github.com/rkd77/elinks>
>> 
>> If someone succeeds with this, please ping me.
>> 
>
> Thank you for mentioning it. I will have a look!
>

I tried elinks with frogfind.com and I discovered that the best way to 
kind of replicate buffers are to start elinks with all the sites I have on 
my reading list (elinks $(cat links.txt)). In the links.txt I have 
prefixed all my sites with frogfind.com.

I then discovered that they all entered the global history file, and in 
that file I can search among the sites.

So all sites are opened in invisible tabs, and I can search for them in 
either the globalhistory, or I can make sure they are all saved as 
bookmarks, and drop the tabs altogether.

Frogfind makes it fairly palatable!

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#26190

D <nospam@example.net> writes:

> On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, yeti wrote:
> 
>>    <https://www.brow.sh/>
> 
> Ah yes... I've seen this before! I did drop it due to its dependency on 
> FF, but the concept is similar. My idea was to aggressively filter a web 
> page before passing it on to elinks or similar.
> 
> Perhaps rewriting it a bit in order to avoid the looooooong list of menu 
> options or links that always come up at the top of the page, before the 
> content of the page shows after a couple of page downs (this happens for 
> instance if I go to wikipedia).
> 
> Instead parsing it, and adding those links at the bottom, removing 
> javascript, and perhaps passing on only the text. Well, those are only 
> ideas. Maybe I'll try, maybe I won't. Time will tell! =)

I've done this for a few individual sites that I visit frequently.

  + A link to that site resides on my browser's "home" page.

  + That home page is a file in ~/html/ on localhost.

  + The link is actually to a target-specific cgi-bin Perl script on
    localhost where Apache is running, restricted to requests from
    localhost.

  + The script takes the URL sent from the home page, rewrites it for
    the routable net, sends it to the target using wget and reads all
    of the returned data into a variable.

  + Using Perl's regular expressions, stuff identified (at time of
    writing the script) as unwanted is elided -- js, style, svg,
    noscript etc.  URLs self-referencing the target are rewritten to
    to be sent through the cgi-bin script.

  + Other tweaks peculiar to the specific target...

  + Result is handed back to the browser preceded by minimal HTTP
    headers. 

So far, works like a charm.  Always the potential that a target host
will change their format significantly.  That has happened a couple of
times, requiring fetching an unadorned copy of the target's page,
tedious reading/parsing and edit to the script.

This obviously doesn't work for those sites that initially send a
dummy all-js page to verify that you have js enabled and send you a
condescending reproof if you don't.  Other server-side dominance games
a potential challenge or a stone wall.

Writing a generalized version, capable of dealing with pages from
random/arbitrary sites is a notion perhaps worth pursuing but clearly
more of a challenge than site-specific scripts. RSN, round TUIT etc.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#26196

On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, Mike Spencer wrote:

>
> D <nospam@example.net> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 26 Nov 2024, yeti wrote:
>>
>>>    <https://www.brow.sh/>
>>
>> Ah yes... I've seen this before! I did drop it due to its dependency on
>> FF, but the concept is similar. My idea was to aggressively filter a web
>> page before passing it on to elinks or similar.
>>
>> Perhaps rewriting it a bit in order to avoid the looooooong list of menu
>> options or links that always come up at the top of the page, before the
>> content of the page shows after a couple of page downs (this happens for
>> instance if I go to wikipedia).
>>
>> Instead parsing it, and adding those links at the bottom, removing
>> javascript, and perhaps passing on only the text. Well, those are only
>> ideas. Maybe I'll try, maybe I won't. Time will tell! =)
>
> I've done this for a few individual sites that I visit frequently.
>
>  + A link to that site resides on my browser's "home" page.
>
>  + That home page is a file in ~/html/ on localhost.
>
>  + The link is actually to a target-specific cgi-bin Perl script on
>    localhost where Apache is running, restricted to requests from
>    localhost.
>
>  + The script takes the URL sent from the home page, rewrites it for
>    the routable net, sends it to the target using wget and reads all
>    of the returned data into a variable.
>
>  + Using Perl's regular expressions, stuff identified (at time of
>    writing the script) as unwanted is elided -- js, style, svg,
>    noscript etc.  URLs self-referencing the target are rewritten to
>    to be sent through the cgi-bin script.
>
>  + Other tweaks peculiar to the specific target...
>
>  + Result is handed back to the browser preceded by minimal HTTP
>    headers.
>
> So far, works like a charm.  Always the potential that a target host
> will change their format significantly.  That has happened a couple of
> times, requiring fetching an unadorned copy of the target's page,
> tedious reading/parsing and edit to the script.
>
> This obviously doesn't work for those sites that initially send a
> dummy all-js page to verify that you have js enabled and send you a
> condescending reproof if you don't.  Other server-side dominance games
> a potential challenge or a stone wall.
>
> Writing a generalized version, capable of dealing with pages from
> random/arbitrary sites is a notion perhaps worth pursuing but clearly
> more of a challenge than site-specific scripts. RSN, round TUIT etc.

Brilliant! You are a poet Mike!

Frogfind.com was a great start! I would love to have some kind of crowd 
sourced html5->html1 - javascript - garbage script.

I also wondered if another approach might just be to take the top 500 
sites and base it on that? Or even looking through my own history, take 
the top 100.

Due to the bad development of the net, it seems like a greater and greater 
part of our browsing takes place on ever fewer numbers of sites.

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#26202

D <nospam@example.net> writes:

> Brilliant! You are a poet Mike!

I'm doubtful that poetry can be done in Perl.  Maybe free verse in
Lisp.

> Frogfind.com was a great start! I would love to have some kind of crowd 
> sourced html5->html1 - javascript - garbage script.

Do note that Frogfind delivers URLs that send your click back to
Frogfind to be proxied.  I assume that's how you get de-enshitified
pages in response to clicking a link returned from a search.

Here's a curiosity:

Google also sends all of your clicks on search results back through
Google.  I assume y'all knew that.

If you search for (say):

      leon "the professional"

you get:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%25C3%25A9on:_The_Professional&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwi [snip tracking hentracks/data]

Note that the "real" URL which Google proposes to proxy for you
contains non-ASCII characters:

   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%25C3%25A9on:_The_Professional

Wikipedia does *not* *have* a page connected to that URL!  But if you
click the link and send it back through Google, you reach the right
Wikipedia page that *does* exist:

   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon:_The_Professional

AFAICT, when spidering the net, Google finds the page that *does*
exist, modifies it according to (opaque, unknown) rules of orthography
and delivers that to you.  When you send that link back through
Google, Google silently reverts the imposed orthographic "correction"
so that the link goes to an existing page.

Isn't the weird?

Try it.  Copy the "real" URL from such a Google response, eliding
everything before (and including) "?q=" and after (and including) the
first "&", paste it into your browser.  Wikipedia will politely tell
you that no such page is available and offer search suggestions.
Revert the non-ASCII "e with a diacritical mark" to 'e' (mutatis
mutandem for similar Google "hits") and it will work.

> I also wondered if another approach might just be to take the top 500 
> sites and base it on that? Or even looking through my own history, take 
> the top 100.

Now there's a project suitable for AI: train the NN to treat a response
containing stuff you don't want ever to see as a failure.  Grovel
repetitively through terabytes of HTML and finally come up with a
generalized filter solution.

> Due to the bad development of the net, it seems like a greater and
> greater part of our browsing takes place on ever fewer numbers of
> sites.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#26203

On 28 Nov 2024 01:41:56 -0400, Mike Spencer wrote:

> AFAICT, when spidering the net, Google finds the page that *does*
> exist, modifies it according to (opaque, unknown) rules of orthography
> and delivers that to you.

It adds an entirely unnecessary extra level of URL quoting.

Trying your example through a redirection-removal script I hacked
together:

    ldo@theon:unredirect> ./unredirect 'https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%25C3%25A9on:_The_Professional&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwi'
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%25C3%25A9on:_The_Professional

Wrong.

    ldo@theon:unredirect> ./unredirect --unquote 'https://www.google.com/url?q=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%25C3%25A9on:_The_Professional&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwi'
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9on:_The_Professional

Right.

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#26206

On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Mike Spencer wrote:

>
> D <nospam@example.net> writes:
>
>> Brilliant! You are a poet Mike!
>
> I'm doubtful that poetry can be done in Perl.  Maybe free verse in
> Lisp.

Is it true that Lisp is the secret name of god?

>> Frogfind.com was a great start! I would love to have some kind of crowd
>> sourced html5->html1 - javascript - garbage script.
>
> Do note that Frogfind delivers URLs that send your click back to
> Frogfind to be proxied.  I assume that's how you get de-enshitified
> pages in response to clicking a link returned from a search.

Yes, I noted that.

> Here's a curiosity:
>
> Google also sends all of your clicks on search results back through
> Google.  I assume y'all knew that.

Haven't used google in a long time, I use ddg.gg or startpage.com instead. 
As far as I can see based on a quick glance, they do no rewrites of the 
urls.

> Isn't the weird?

I imagine it is done to record it and to help build your profile somehow, which
can then be sold to advertisers?

>> I also wondered if another approach might just be to take the top 500
>> sites and base it on that? Or even looking through my own history, take
>> the top 100.
>
> Now there's a project suitable for AI: train the NN to treat a response
> containing stuff you don't want ever to see as a failure.  Grovel
> repetitively through terabytes of HTML and finally come up with a
> generalized filter solution.

Maybe. I would be afraid of it becoming conscious and developing a will of its
own! ;)

>> Due to the bad development of the net, it seems like a greater and
>> greater part of our browsing takes place on ever fewer numbers of
>> sites.
>
>

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#26317 — URIs within URIs: google.com/url?q= et al.

>>>>> On 2024-11-28, Mike Spencer wrote:

	[Cross-posting to news:comp.infosystems.www.misc just in case,
	but setting Followup-To: comp.misc still.  Feel free to disregard,
	though; if anything, I'll be monitoring both groups for some
	time for responses.]

 > Here's a curiosity:

 > Google also sends all of your clicks on search results back through
 > Google.  I assume y'all knew that.

 > If you search for (say):

 >   leon "the professional"

 > you get:

 > https://www.google.com/url
 > ?q=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%25C3%25A9on:_The_Professional
 > &sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwi [snip tracking hentracks/data]

 > Note that the "real" URL which Google proposes to proxy for you
 > contains non-ASCII characters:

 >   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%25C3%25A9on:_The_Professional

 > Wikipedia does *not* *have* a page connected to that URL!  But if you
 > click the link and send it back through Google, you reach the right
 > Wikipedia page that *does* exist:

 >   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon:_The_Professional

	And this page clearly states (search for "Redirected from" there)
	that it was reached via an alias.  If you follow the "Article"
	link from there, it'll lead you to .../L%C3%A9on:_The_Professional
	instead, which is the proper URI for that Wikipedia article.

	Think of it.  Suppose that Google has to return something like
	http://example.com/?o=p&q=http://example.net/ as one of the
	results.  Can you just put it after google.com/url?q= directly
	without ambiguity?  You'd get:

http://google.com/url?q=http://example.com/?o=p&q=http://example.net/&...
                                               ^1                    ^2

	Normally, the URI would start after ?q= and go until the first ^1
	occurence of &, but in this case, it'd be actually the second ^2
	that terminates the intended URI.  Naturally, Google avoids it
	by %-encoding the ?s and &s, like:

http://google.com/url?q=http://example.com/%3fo=p%26q=http://example.net/&...

	By the same merit, they need to escape %s themselves, should
	the original URI contain any, so e. g. http://example.com/%d1%8a
	becomes .../url?q=http://example.com/%25d1%258a&... .

	Of course, Google didn't invent any of this: unless I be mistaken,
	that's how HTML <form method="get" />s have worked from the get-go.
	And you /do/ need something like Hello%3f%20%20Anybody%20home%3f
	to put it after /guestbook?comment=.

	FWIW, I tend to use the following Perl bits for %-encoding and
	decoding, respectively:

s {[^0-9A-Za-z/_.-]}{${ \sprintf ("%%%02x", ord ($&)); }}g;
s {%([0-9a-fA-F]{2})}{${ \chr (hex ($1)); }}g;

 > AFAICT, when spidering the net, Google finds the page that *does*
 > exist, modifies it according to (opaque, unknown) rules of orthography
 > and delivers that to you.  When you send that link back through
 > Google, Google silently reverts the imposed orthographic "correction"
 > so that the link goes to an existing page.

 > Isn't the weird?

	There's this bit near the end of the .../Leon:_The_Professional
	(line split for readability):

<script type="application/ld+json">{
"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org",
"@type":"Article",
"name":"L\u00e9on: The Professional",
"url":"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/L%C3%A9on:_The_Professional",
[...]

	I'm pretty certain that Google /does/ parse JSON-LD like in the
	above, so I can only presume that when it finds a Web document
	that points to a different "url": in this way, it (sometimes?)
	uses the latter in preference to the original URI.

	I've been thinking of adopting JSON-LD for my own Web pages
	(http://am-1.org/~ivan/ , http://users.am-1.org/~ivan/ , etc.),
	but so far have only used (arguably better readable)
	http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2 (that I hope search
	engines will at some point add support for.)  Consider, e. g.:

http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://am-1.org/~ivan/qinp-2024/112.l-system.en.xhtml

	Note that ?url= above needs the exact same %-treatment as does
	Google's /url?q=.  Naturally, the HTML form at http://pin13.net/mf2/
	will do it for you.  (Or, rather: instruct your Web user agent
	to do so.)

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#26319 — Re: URIs within URIs: google.com/url?q= et al.

Ivan Shmakov wrote:

>>>>>> On 2024-11-28, Mike Spencer wrote:
> 
> 	[Cross-posting to news:comp.infosystems.www.misc just in case,
> 	but setting Followup-To: comp.misc still.  Feel free to disregard,
> 	though; if anything, I'll be monitoring both groups for some
> 	time for responses.]
> 
>   > Here's a curiosity:
> 
>   > Google also sends all of your clicks on search results back through
>   > Google.  

Probably because they wouldn't trust a browser to honour the ping 
attribute of an anchor tag, that was designed for tracking?

<https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/HTMLAnchorElement/ping>

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#26321 — Re: URIs within URIs: google.com/url?q= et al.

[ Top-posting because this is brief and adds no new interspersed text...]

Thank you very much, Ivan, for redirecting ;-) my lagging attention to
the %25 hex encoded chars prefixed to the already hex encoded chars
and Google's pages/methods for dealing with them.  Your detailed reply
is much appreciated.

I'll read your comments more carefully and see if I can't tweak my
Perl script, the behavior of which led to my original comments on
this, to Do The Right Thing.

[ Previous exchange left unaltered for the record.]



Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.netREMOVE.invalid> writes:

> >>>>> On 2024-11-28, Mike Spencer wrote:
> 
> 	[Cross-posting to news:comp.infosystems.www.misc just in case,
> 	but setting Followup-To: comp.misc still.  Feel free to disregard,
> 	though; if anything, I'll be monitoring both groups for some
> 	time for responses.]
> 
>  > Here's a curiosity:
> 
>  > Google also sends all of your clicks on search results back through
>  > Google.  I assume y'all knew that.
> 
>  > If you search for (say):
> 
>  >   leon "the professional"
> 
>  > you get:
> 
>  > https://www.google.com/url
>  > ?q=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%25C3%25A9on:_The_Professional
>  > &sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwi [snip tracking hentracks/data]
> 
>  > Note that the "real" URL which Google proposes to proxy for you
>  > contains non-ASCII characters:
> 
>  >   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%25C3%25A9on:_The_Professional
> 
>  > Wikipedia does *not* *have* a page connected to that URL!  But if you
>  > click the link and send it back through Google, you reach the right
>  > Wikipedia page that *does* exist:
> 
>  >   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon:_The_Professional
> 
> 	And this page clearly states (search for "Redirected from" there)
> 	that it was reached via an alias.  If you follow the "Article"
> 	link from there, it'll lead you to .../L%C3%A9on:_The_Professional
> 	instead, which is the proper URI for that Wikipedia article.
> 
> 	Think of it.  Suppose that Google has to return something like
> 	http://example.com/?o=p&q=http://example.net/ as one of the
> 	results.  Can you just put it after google.com/url?q= directly
> 	without ambiguity?  You'd get:
> 
> http://google.com/url?q=http://example.com/?o=p&q=http://example.net/&...
>                                                ^1                    ^2
> 
> 	Normally, the URI would start after ?q= and go until the first ^1
> 	occurence of &, but in this case, it'd be actually the second ^2
> 	that terminates the intended URI.  Naturally, Google avoids it
> 	by %-encoding the ?s and &s, like:
> 
> http://google.com/url?q=http://example.com/%3fo=p%26q=http://example.net/&...
> 
> 	By the same merit, they need to escape %s themselves, should
> 	the original URI contain any, so e. g. http://example.com/%d1%8a
> 	becomes .../url?q=http://example.com/%25d1%258a&... .
> 
> 	Of course, Google didn't invent any of this: unless I be mistaken,
> 	that's how HTML <form method="get" />s have worked from the get-go.
> 	And you /do/ need something like Hello%3f%20%20Anybody%20home%3f
> 	to put it after /guestbook?comment=.
> 
> 	FWIW, I tend to use the following Perl bits for %-encoding and
> 	decoding, respectively:
> 
> s {[^0-9A-Za-z/_.-]}{${ \sprintf ("%%%02x", ord ($&)); }}g;
> s {%([0-9a-fA-F]{2})}{${ \chr (hex ($1)); }}g;
> 
>  > AFAICT, when spidering the net, Google finds the page that *does*
>  > exist, modifies it according to (opaque, unknown) rules of orthography
>  > and delivers that to you.  When you send that link back through
>  > Google, Google silently reverts the imposed orthographic "correction"
>  > so that the link goes to an existing page.
> 
>  > Isn't the weird?
> 
> 	There's this bit near the end of the .../Leon:_The_Professional
> 	(line split for readability):
> 
> <script type="application/ld+json">{
> "@context":"https:\/\/schema.org",
> "@type":"Article",
> "name":"L\u00e9on: The Professional",
> "url":"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/L%C3%A9on:_The_Professional",
> [...]
> 
> 	I'm pretty certain that Google /does/ parse JSON-LD like in the
> 	above, so I can only presume that when it finds a Web document
> 	that points to a different "url": in this way, it (sometimes?)
> 	uses the latter in preference to the original URI.
> 
> 	I've been thinking of adopting JSON-LD for my own Web pages
> 	(http://am-1.org/~ivan/ , http://users.am-1.org/~ivan/ , etc.),
> 	but so far have only used (arguably better readable)
> 	http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2 (that I hope search
> 	engines will at some point add support for.)  Consider, e. g.:
> 
> http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://am-1.org/~ivan/qinp-2024/112.l-system.en.xhtml
> 
> 	Note that ?url= above needs the exact same %-treatment as does
> 	Google's /url?q=.  Naturally, the HTML form at http://pin13.net/mf2/
> 	will do it for you.  (Or, rather: instruct your Web user agent
> 	to do so.)

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#26231

EMacs EWW seems to work with a large number of sites these days. I try to
do everything in eMacs. Of course for some stuff like shopping and banking
a modern aka bloated browser is necessary. But eMacs is also TUI, not
strictly a terminal program.

There is something serene about text as your interface. If I could get
Amazon, eBay, and my bank to work properly in EWW I wouldn’t even launch a
browser, ever.

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#26233

On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 06:11:40 -0000 (UTC), Oregonian Haruspex wrote:

> But eMacs is also TUI, not strictly a terminal program.

It can display graphics. It has long been able to run under X11. I 
currently use a GTK build that works under Wayland.

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#26237

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 06:42 this Wednesday (GMT):
> On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 06:11:40 -0000 (UTC), Oregonian Haruspex wrote:
>
>> But eMacs is also TUI, not strictly a terminal program.
>
> It can display graphics. It has long been able to run under X11. I 
> currently use a GTK build that works under Wayland.


But does it support JS?
-- 
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

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