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Newbie Help

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  Newbie Help mixolydian <mixolydian@postersRUS> - 2012-01-03 17:13 -0600
    Re: Newbie Help Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-01-04 11:35 +1100
      Re: Newbie Help Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-01-05 07:26 +1100
    Re: Newbie Help Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-01-04 00:55 +0000
    Re: Newbie Help HoneyMonster <someone@someplace.invalid> - 2012-01-04 16:43 +0000
    Re: Newbie Help mixolydian <mixolydian@postersRUS> - 2012-01-11 16:03 -0600

#18465 — Newbie Help

I want to get into Python progamming for both local database applications and 
dynamic web pages. Maybe some Q&D scripts.
There is a ton of excellent language books.

I have downloaded and installed 2.7.2 and got it working by pasting samples 
into IDLE, and uploading to my web server and doing trial CGI samples. 
So far, so good.

I would like some advice on:
  1. IDEs
  2. GUI tools, tkinter and others
  3. An integrated web server package for Win Vista for testing web apps before 
deploying. Uploading to my ISP to run is a PIA. I've installed VertrigoServ to 
try, but am chasing my tail around the Apache configuration.
      Is there something easier?
Just pointers to get me started would be fine.

More info.I will be migrating data base apps from MSAccess 2000. I know, I 
know, but it was free on my original Win 95 PC.
I've been programming for 50 years and have had to learn (and unlearn) a lot, 
and I'm eager to learn new stuff.

Thanks.

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#18470

mixolydian <mixolydian@postersRUS> writes:

> I want to get into Python progamming for both local database
> applications and dynamic web pages. Maybe some Q&D scripts.

Welcome to the Python community. You have found a good general-purpose
programming language, and I hope you find the right help for what you're
trying to do.

> I would like some advice on:
>   1. IDEs

I advise against language-specific IDEs. You should learn at least one
general-purpose programming environment, making sure to choose one that
is:

* Free software, so that its maintenance and longevity is not at the
  mercy of any particular organisation.

* Powerful and flexible, so that it's easy for experts to make it
  support specific programming languages and tasks.

* Mature, so that it has a great deal of such support for many languages
  and tasks already written by such experts.

* Actively maintained by a vibrant and open developer community, so that
  you can be confident it will continue to adapt to changing needs.

* Cross-platform, so that you're not denied the use of any popular
  workstation OS.

For my purposes, either { GNU Screen + Bash + Emacs } or { GNU Screen +
Bash + Vim } are good choices satisfying all the above criteria. There
may be other good combinations.

>   2. GUI tools, tkinter and others

Tkinter has become much more flexible and “modern” in recent years. See
<URL:http://tkdocs.com/> for a good tutorial on using Tk for GUI design;
it focuses on Tk and presents examples in many languages, including
Python.

>   3. An integrated web server package for Win Vista

Can't help you there, I don't find Windows to meet my criteria for a
good development nor deployment environment.

> More info.I will be migrating data base apps from MSAccess 2000. I
> know, I know, but it was free on my original Win 95 PC.

You will want to learn SQL and relational databases. As a distinct task,
you *might* want to learn to operate a database server.

Python comes with SQLite included, so you can learn a functional SQL
database system without entangling it with the complications of running
a server.

Once you reach the point where a dedicated database server is needed, I
would recommend going to the best: PostgreSQL. But again, you can delay
that until after you are familiar with SQLite.

> I've been programming for 50 years and have had to learn (and unlearn)
> a lot, and I'm eager to learn new stuff.

Good hunting to you.

-- 
 \             “We can't depend for the long run on distinguishing one |
  `\         bitstream from another in order to figure out which rules |
_o__)               apply.” —Eben Moglen, _Anarchism Triumphant_, 1999 |
Ben Finney

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#18512

Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> writes:

> * Cross-platform, so that you're not denied the use of any popular
>   workstation OS.
>
> For my purposes, either { GNU Screen + Bash + Emacs } or { GNU Screen +
> Bash + Vim } are good choices satisfying all the above criteria. There
> may be other good combinations.

I slightly mis-spoke. Obviously GNU Screen and Bash are only truly
available on Unix-like operating systems. But that's pretty much all of
the popular workstation OSes except one.

GNU Emacs and Vim are truly available on every popular workstation OS.
Learn one of them well, and you will be able to take on the diversity of
programming tasks much easier.

-- 
 \       “A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of |
  `\                                           widths.” —Steven Wright |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#18471

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:13:17 -0600, mixolydian wrote:

> I would like some advice on:
>   1. IDEs

Avoid them. Everything you need can be used with two applications:

- a programmer's text editor;
- a decent terminal (console) application.

A decent text editor will allow you to have multiple files open in tabs 
and rich editing tools, including completion. A decent terminal will 
allow you to have multiple sessions open, also in tabs. I have at least 
one session open to an interactive interpreter, for experimenting at the 
Python command line, and at least one other open to run my python code, 
run unit tests and doc tests, and manage source code control.

E.g. 

python -m doctest my_app.py  # run the doc tests
python -m unittest my_app_tests.py  # run a separate test suite
python my_app.py --options # and finally run the app itself

For flexibility and power, no IDE can beat the command line.

Some editors are integrated with the source control app of your choice (I 
prefer Mercurial), but I am happy to use the Mercurial command line 
tools. It's easier to find the answers to "how do I ..." when you aren't 
limited to a single editor's idiosyncrasies.

Best of all, I don't have to learn a bunch of unique IDE commands which 
don't work anywhere else. I just use my normal tools.


>   2. GUI tools, tkinter and others

tkinter is pretty much the lowest common denominator. It's good, 
especially now that it has native widgets, but if you want something 
better, you might like to try wxPython.


>   3. An integrated web server package for Win Vista 

Try cherrypy, which includes its own web server as well as a web 
framework.

http://cherrypy.org/



-- 
Steven

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#18505

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 17:13:17 -0600, mixolydian wrote:

> I want to get into Python progamming for both local database
> applications and dynamic web pages. Maybe some Q&D scripts.

I am new to Python too, and recently completed my first "real" cross-
platform GUI application with local/remote database access.

I concur with the other replies. I see no need for an IDE and 
wholeheartedly recommend PostgreSQL (which integrates with Python very 
well indeed using Psycopg 2).

I have found wxPython best for GUI. There is even a source code generator 
available for the graphical bits of the application - wxGlade. I was able 
to get up to speed very easily and quickly indeed (though of course there 
is a great deal more to learn). These tools are all FOSS.

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#18848

mixolydian <mixolydian@postersRUS> wrote:
>I want to get into Python progamming for both local database applications and 
>dynamic web pages. Maybe some Q&D scripts.
>There is a ton of excellent language books.
>
>I have downloaded and installed 2.7.2 and got it working by pasting samples 
>into IDLE, and uploading to my web server and doing trial CGI samples. 
>So far, so good.
>
>I would like some advice on:
>  1. IDEs
>  2. GUI tools, tkinter and others
>  3. An integrated web server package for Win Vista for testing web apps 
>before 
>deploying. Uploading to my ISP to run is a PIA. I've installed VertrigoServ to 
>try, but am chasing my tail around the Apache configuration.
>      Is there something easier?
>Just pointers to get me started would be fine.
>
>More info.I will be migrating data base apps from MSAccess 2000. I know, I 
>know, but it was free on my original Win 95 PC.
>I've been programming for 50 years and have had to learn (and unlearn) a lot, 
>and I'm eager to learn new stuff.
>

Thanks to all those who replied.

I am using Notepad++ and WampServer. My hosting service is 
Apache/phpMyAdmin/MySQL and I decided it was best to use the same on my Windoze 
development system.

Right now I'm revising my site HTML (much of it is 15 yrs old!). Later it will 
be upgraded to use server-side scripts. Perhaps then I'll look at Django, 
Cherrpy; etc.

>Thanks.

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