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Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate

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  Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-06 21:19 -0400
    Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-07 09:18 +0300
      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-07 09:51 +0100
      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-07 06:00 -0700
        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-07 17:17 +0300
          Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 00:30 +1000
      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 00:14 +1000
        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-07 17:20 +0300
      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 11:48 -0400
        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 14:31 -0500
          Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-08 05:57 +1000
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 00:15 +0300
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 16:35 -0500
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 01:27 +0000
                  Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 12:09 +1000
                    Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 03:41 +0000
                  Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2014-05-08 03:43 +0000
                  Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 17:34 -0500
                    Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 01:11 +0000
                      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-10 00:46 -0700
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-08 10:35 +1000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 01:32 +0000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 09:19 +0300
                  Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-08 16:40 +1000
                    Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 23:50 -0700
                      Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 10:03 +0300
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-07 21:33 -0400
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Johannes Schneider <johannes.schneider@galileo-press.de> - 2014-05-08 09:26 +0200
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-09 00:54 +0000
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Joseph Martinot-Lagarde <joseph.martinot-lagarde@m4x.org> - 2014-05-08 10:07 +0200
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 18:14 +1000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 13:22 +0000
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-08 18:34 +1000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 12:43 +0300
                  Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-08 21:14 +1000
                    Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 15:01 +0300
                      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-09 05:14 +1000
                      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-08 14:50 -0700
                        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-09 00:02 +0000
                          Re: The �  debate Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-05-09 13:10 +1200
                            Re: The �  debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-09 13:13 +1000
                            Re: The �  debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 01:34 +0000
                              Re: The �  debate Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 21:34 -0500
                              Re: The �  debate Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-05-10 17:58 +1200
                                Re: The � debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 17:10 +1000
                                  Re: The � debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 07:48 +0000
                                    Re: The � debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 18:01 +1000
                                      Re: The � debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-10 11:21 +0300
                                    Re: The � debate Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 02:05 -0700
                                      Re: The � debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 12:30 -0700
                                  Re: The � debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-10 11:18 +0300
                                    Re: The � debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 09:31 +0000
                  Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 13:18 +0000
                    Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 23:46 +1000
                      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 14:22 +0000
                        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 00:51 +1000
                          Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 16:04 +0000
                            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 02:10 +1000
                            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-08 21:02 -0400
                              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-09 01:32 +0000
                                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-08 22:21 -0400
                                  Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 12:31 +1000
                                    Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 22:40 -0700
                                      Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 15:51 +1000
                                        Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 07:09 -0700
                                          Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 00:29 +1000
                                            Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 09:07 -0700
                                  Re: The “does Python have variables?â€瑩 debate Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-09 19:51 -0400
                                  Re: The “does Python have variables?â€瑩 debate Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-10 01:03 +0100
                              Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-10 09:42 -0400
                                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-10 14:31 -0400
                                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 01:17 -0500
                                  Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 00:01 -0700
                                  Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 07:09 +0000
                                    Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl> - 2014-05-11 18:09 +0200
                                      Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 19:27 +0300
                                        Re: Fortran Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-11 13:51 -0400
                                          Re: Fortran Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 04:08 +1000
                                            Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 23:51 +0000
                                              Re: Fortran Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-12 01:27 +0100
                                                Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-12 02:28 +0000
                                                  Re: Fortran Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-12 10:05 +0100
                                                  Re: Fortran Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-12 20:52 -0400
                                          Re: Fortran Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-11 11:05 -0700
                                          Re: Fortran Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 04:33 +1000
                                            Re: Fortran Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-11 14:43 -0400
                                              Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 23:15 +0000
                                                Re: Fortran MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-05-12 00:51 +0100
                                                  Re: Fortran Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-11 20:14 -0400
                                                    Re: Fortran alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-05-12 14:14 +0000
                                                  Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-12 01:11 +0000
                                                    Re: Fortran Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2014-05-11 23:27 -0400
                                                    Re: Fortran Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-05-12 14:07 +0000
                                              Re: Fortran Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-11 21:12 -0400
                                    Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 02:42 +1000
                                    Re: Fortran Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl> - 2014-05-11 20:04 +0200
                                    Re: Fortran Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 04:12 +1000
                                  Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-05-11 19:05 +0200
                                    Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 13:54 -0500
                                      Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 04:59 +1000
                                        Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 14:14 -0500
                                          Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-29 14:06 +0000
                                            Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-05-29 17:53 +0000
                                      Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-05-11 23:10 -0400
                                        Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 23:10 -0500
                                          Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 23:26 -0500
                                            Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 14:53 +1000
                                      Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-05-12 10:44 +0200
                                        Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 00:33 -0500
                                          Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-13 05:48 +0000
                                            Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 00:55 -0500
                                            Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 15:56 +1000
                                              Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-13 09:34 +0000
                                                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 20:00 +1000
                                                  Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 03:44 -0700
                                                    Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 20:50 +1000
                                            Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2014-05-13 02:31 -0400
                                              Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-13 07:22 +0000
                                                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-13 07:16 -0400
                                                  Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 21:21 +1000
                                                  Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-13 14:42 +0100
                                                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2014-05-13 07:42 -0400
                                          Re: Fortran Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-05-13 19:33 +0200
                                            Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-13 22:57 +0300
                                              Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-14 00:10 +0000
                                                Re: Fortran Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 21:43 -0600
                                                Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-14 07:35 +0300
                                                  Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-14 06:58 +0000
                                                    Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-14 11:46 +0300
                                                Re: Fortran Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 23:05 +0000
                                                struct.unpack: why 's' fmt char convert to bytestring GuoChao <cx63@outlook.com> - 2014-05-15 20:34 +0800
                                                Re: struct.unpack: why 's' fmt char convert to bytestring Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-05-15 09:49 -0400
                                                Re: struct.unpack: why 's' fmt char convert to bytestring MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-05-15 15:47 +0100
                                              Re: Fortran Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-05-14 15:13 +0200
                                              Re: Fortran albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-29 14:26 +0000
                                                Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-29 17:50 +0300
                                                  Re: Fortran Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 00:58 +1000
                                                    Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-29 18:09 +0300
                                                  Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-29 17:57 +0000
                                                    Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-29 21:55 +0300
                            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-09 09:13 +0100
                    Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 08:06 -0600
                    Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 00:13 +1000
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-08 15:21 -0400
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 23:06 +0300
                  Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-08 15:36 -0700
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-08 17:05 -0700
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-09 01:47 +0100
        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 00:57 +0000
        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-08 08:41 -0400
          Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 22:54 +1000
          Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-08 06:18 -0700
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 17:03 +0300
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-08 16:09 -0700
          Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate "Neil D. Cerutti" <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-05-08 10:47 -0400

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#71147

In article <536c3049$0$29965$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:

> Although Fortran is still in use, and widely so, it is mostly used for 
> accessing existing Fortran libraries rather than writing new 
> applications. There may be niches where that does not hold, where people 
> are actively writing new applications in Fortran, but they are niches. 
> Today, Fortran is rarely used for general purpose computing, updated 
> standards or no updated standards.

Oddly enough, my current use of Fortran is via Python.  The scipy and 
statsmodels libraries use Fortran routines under the covers.

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#71148

On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <536c3049$0$29965$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>,
>  Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>> Although Fortran is still in use, and widely so, it is mostly used for
>> accessing existing Fortran libraries rather than writing new
>> applications. There may be niches where that does not hold, where people
>> are actively writing new applications in Fortran, but they are niches.
>> Today, Fortran is rarely used for general purpose computing, updated
>> standards or no updated standards.
>
> Oddly enough, my current use of Fortran is via Python.  The scipy and
> statsmodels libraries use Fortran routines under the covers.

I'd like to argue that you're not using Fortran, then. You're making
use of it in the same way that I might make use of Ruby, PHP, and Perl
when I browse the web - the other end is running those languages, ergo
I am depending on them for my information, but I'm not actually
seeing, much less writing, any code in those languages.

ChrisA

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#71153 — Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate

On Friday, May 9, 2014 8:01:56 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 12:21 PM, Roy Smith  wrote:
> 
> 
> >  Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> >> Although Fortran is still in use, and widely so, it is mostly used for
> >> accessing existing Fortran libraries rather than writing new
> >> applications. There may be niches where that does not hold, where people
> >> are actively writing new applications in Fortran, but they are niches.
> >> Today, Fortran is rarely used for general purpose computing, updated
> >> standards or no updated standards.
> 
> >
> > Oddly enough, my current use of Fortran is via Python.  The scipy and
> > statsmodels libraries use Fortran routines under the covers.
> 
> 
> I'd like to argue that you're not using Fortran, then. You're making
> use of it in the same way that I might make use of Ruby, PHP, and Perl
> when I browse the web 

Yes one can argue so
But one can also argue that this is a 1990s viewpoint
http://oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/articles/paradigmshift_0504.html

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#71155 — Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate

On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 3:40 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd like to argue that you're not using Fortran, then. You're making
>> use of it in the same way that I might make use of Ruby, PHP, and Perl
>> when I browse the web
>
> Yes one can argue so
> But one can also argue that this is a 1990s viewpoint
> http://oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/articles/paradigmshift_0504.html

Okay, so at what point do you stop using Fortran? Suppose the original
Fortran code was all compiled to binary years and years ago, and
nobody touches it. Nobody even knows that it was ever written in
Fortran; the existing binaries need no changes, or if they do, they
get edited directly in the binary. You're writing a Python program
that interacts with this. Sure, your success depends on someone, some
time in the past, having written Fortran (or FORTRAN) code, but you're
not yourself using that language at all.

Or can I put on my resume that I use, on a regular basis, FreeBSD,
OpenBSD, Mac OS, and Solaris, and I make extensive use of Hadoop,
map/reduce across petabytes of data, massively parallel processing,
and special relativity? I'm sure an employer would *love* to hear from
someone with all of that experience!

ChrisA

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#71172 — Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate

On Friday, May 9, 2014 11:21:37 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 3:40 PM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> 
> >> I'd like to argue that you're not using Fortran, then. You're making
> >> use of it in the same way that I might make use of Ruby, PHP, and Perl
> >> when I browse the web
> >
> > Yes one can argue so
> > But one can also argue that this is a 1990s viewpoint
> > http://oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/articles/paradigmshift_0504.html
> 
> 
> Okay, so at what point do you stop using Fortran?

Yes thats the point -- its a real valued spectrum, not a yes/no. eg.

You write an app with Tkinter. Are you not using Tcl/Tk? 

You said earlier to Mark that the relation between python and C variables is irrelevant.  Lets take that as true.  Will it continue to be irrelevant when
you need to write an extension in C?

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#71175 — Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate

On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 12:09 AM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes thats the point -- its a real valued spectrum, not a yes/no. eg.
>
> You write an app with Tkinter. Are you not using Tcl/Tk?

I'm not familiar enough with Tkinter to be sure, but I think you'd be
using Tk but not Tcl. There are a few leaks, though, so it may be
necessary to grok Tcl to use Tkinter (or at least, there may be times
when grokking Tcl will make it easier to debug Tkinter issues).

> You said earlier to Mark that the relation between python and C variables is irrelevant.  Lets take that as true.  Will it continue to be irrelevant when
> you need to write an extension in C?

The similarities and differences between the variable models are no
more relevant. What becomes relevant are the PyObject* pointer (the C
interface to a Python object (not variable)) and the various functions
for manipulating namespaces, mainly dictionaries. If anything, you
need to be more aware that Python and C variables are completely
different beasts. CPython's C API [1] is fairly manual; you INCREF and
DECREF objects, there's no concept of "automatic variables", etc etc
etc. For comparison, the V8 JavaScript engine tries to make it easy to
work with automatic variables - you create scope levels, and then a
whole lot of magic happens and things are really easy. At least,
they're easy so long as your code model perfectly follows what the
designers had in mind; if your code works in any other way, it becomes
a lot harder, as you end up either fighting against the scope system,
or just declaring a global scope object and using that everywhere. In
both cases, the relationship to C's variable model is coincidental at
best. The fact that you can go "x = 1;" in all three languages and
expect it to do the same thing is quite useless if you're trying to
write C++ code [2] that does "x = 1;" in Python and JavaScript.

ChrisA

[1] I'm not sure whether this is CPython's API or if it's part of the
Python language spec, as I've never written C extensions for any other
Python.
[2] The V8 API is actually a C++ API, not that the difference matters
to this discussion

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#71178 — Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate

On Friday, May 9, 2014 7:59:14 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> The similarities and differences between the variable models are no
> more relevant. What becomes relevant are the PyObject* pointer (the C
> interface to a Python object (not variable)) and the various functions
> for manipulating namespaces, mainly dictionaries. If anything, you
> need to be more aware that Python and C variables are completely
> different beasts. CPython's C API [1] is fairly manual; you INCREF and
> DECREF objects, there's no concept of "automatic variables", etc etc
> etc. 

On the contrary, you need to respect the C system to get past the C compiler.
And you need to uphold the expected python invariants to get code that works.

So the variables inside the C functions are (as always in C) automatic
But they dont become easily and naturally such in python

Hence all the INCREF/ownership etc headaches

IOW one needs to have both worlds under one's belt

Of course one can use swig or boost or ctype and replace one headache with other(s)

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#71201 — Re: The “does Python have variables?â€瑩 debate

On Thu, 08 May 2014 22:21:25 -0400, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> declaimed the
following:

>In article <536c3049$0$29965$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>,
> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>> Although Fortran is still in use, and widely so, it is mostly used for 
>> accessing existing Fortran libraries rather than writing new 
>> applications. There may be niches where that does not hold, where people 
>> are actively writing new applications in Fortran, but they are niches. 
>> Today, Fortran is rarely used for general purpose computing, updated 
>> standards or no updated standards.
>
>Oddly enough, my current use of Fortran is via Python.  The scipy and 
>statsmodels libraries use Fortran routines under the covers.

	To me, that is NOT "use of Fortran"... It is nothing more than the use
of a /library with a documented calling spec (API)/.

	That the library was written in Fortran is irrelevant. Especially if
one is working a VMS system where all the languages had features for
calling functions written on others (in effect, the equivalent of Python's
ctypes module, as a general commonality on the system)
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#71203 — Re: The “does Python have variables?â€瑩 debate

On 10/05/2014 00:51, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Thu, 08 May 2014 22:21:25 -0400, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> declaimed the
> following:
>
>> In article <536c3049$0$29965$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>,
>> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Although Fortran is still in use, and widely so, it is mostly used for
>>> accessing existing Fortran libraries rather than writing new
>>> applications. There may be niches where that does not hold, where people
>>> are actively writing new applications in Fortran, but they are niches.
>>> Today, Fortran is rarely used for general purpose computing, updated
>>> standards or no updated standards.
>>
>> Oddly enough, my current use of Fortran is via Python.  The scipy and
>> statsmodels libraries use Fortran routines under the covers.
>
> 	To me, that is NOT "use of Fortran"... It is nothing more than the use
> of a /library with a documented calling spec (API)/.
>
> 	That the library was written in Fortran is irrelevant. Especially if
> one is working a VMS system where all the languages had features for
> calling functions written on others (in effect, the equivalent of Python's
> ctypes module, as a general commonality on the system)
>

Oh the joy, a tedious, repetative thread is made infinitely better by 
the mention of three wonderful letters, V, M and S.  What bliss :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#71247 — Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate)

In article <mailman.9805.1399597367.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> On 08 May 2014 16:04:51 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> declaimed the following:
> 
> >Personally, I think that trying to be general and talk about "many other 
> >languages" is a failing strategy. Better to be concrete: C, Pascal, 
> >Algol, Fortran, VB (I think) are good examples of the "value in a box at 
> >a fixed location" model. Of those, Algol, Pascal and Fortran are either 
> >obsolete or legacy, and C is by far the most well-known by people here. 
> >(For some reason, few people seem to migrate from VB to Python.) Hence, 
> >"C-like".
> >
> 
> 	Obsolete and Legacy? Fortran still receives regular standards updates
> (currently 2008, with the next revision due in 2015).


Ars Technica article a couple of days ago, about Fortran, and what is 
likely to replace it:

http://tinyurl.com/mr54p96

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#71262 — Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate)

On 5/10/2014 9:42 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.9805.1399597367.18130.python-list@python.org>,
>   Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>> 	Obsolete and Legacy? Fortran still receives regular standards updates
>> (currently 2008, with the next revision due in 2015).
>
> Ars Technica article a couple of days ago, about Fortran, and what is
> likely to replace it:

What might *possibly* replace it.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/mr54p96

The article is deficient in that it ignores the 20-year-old combination 
of python with fortran and the facts that the combination gives fortran 
a repl loop and that this combination has already somewhat replaced bare 
fortran.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#71295 — Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate)

On 5/10/14 8:42 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
> Ars Technica article a couple of days ago, about Fortran, and what is
> likely to replace it:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/mr54p96
>

uhm, yeeah!

'Julia' is going to give everyone a not so small run for competition; 
justifiably so,  not just against FORTRAN.

Julia is Matlab and  R, Python, Lisp, Scheme; all rolled together on 
steroids. Its amazing as a dynamic language, and its fast, like 
lightning fast as well as multiprocessing (parallel processing) at its 
core. Its astounding, really.

Its number concept is unified, BigFloats are by default arbitrary 
precision with full scientific and transcendental functions built-in, 
everything complex just works, and did I mention its fast? The 
bench-marks are within 2x of C across the boards;  makes Matlab look 
like a rock, and is well ahead of python (NumPy SciPy) for technical 
computing.

Julia is still very much beta in my opinion but its maturing fast. Its 
open free (libre) and cross platform and did I mention it flatout 
screams? Not only will it replace FORTRAN completely if things keep 
progressing, but also Matlab, Mathematica, NumPy, & SciPy (and others). 
Keep your eye on her fellows.

marcus

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#71302 — Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate)

On Sunday, May 11, 2014 11:47:55 AM UTC+5:30, Mark H. Harris wrote:
> 'Julia' is going to give everyone a not so small run for competition; 
> justifiably so,  not just against FORTRAN.
> 
> 
> Julia is Matlab and  R, Python, Lisp, Scheme; all rolled together on 
> steroids. Its amazing as a dynamic language, and its fast, like 
> lightning fast as well as multiprocessing (parallel processing) at its 
> core. Its astounding, really.

I think the big thing is that Julia is cooperating rather than competing

https://github.com/JuliaLang/IJulia.jl

If they can carry this off, its a definite winning strategy

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#71303 — Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate)

On Sun, 11 May 2014 01:17:55 -0500, Mark H Harris wrote:

> On 5/10/14 8:42 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
>> Ars Technica article a couple of days ago, about Fortran, and what is
>> likely to replace it:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/mr54p96
>>
>>
> uhm, yeeah!
> 
> 'Julia' is going to give everyone a not so small run for competition;
> justifiably so,  not just against FORTRAN.

That and two hundred other languages.

Good languages (for some definition of "good") are a dime a dozen. 
Miranda, Rust, Go, D, Ceylon, Coffeescript, F#, Scala, Lua, Erlang, 
Eiffel, Ocaml, Haskell, Kotlin, Grovy, Clojure, Dart, Mercury, ML... the 
list of "amazing", "astounding" languages is never ending. Very few of 
them take over the world, and those that do rarely do so due to technical 
excellence. (BASIC, Java, PHP, Javascript ...) Some of them, like 
Haskell, influence other languages without ever being popular themselves.



-- 
Steven D'Aprano
http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/

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#71323 — Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate)

On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 07:09:27AM +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 11 May 2014 01:17:55 -0500, Mark H Harris wrote:
> 
> > On 5/10/14 8:42 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
> >> Ars Technica article a couple of days ago, about Fortran, and what is
> >> likely to replace it:
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/mr54p96
> >>
> >>
> > uhm, yeeah!
> > 
> > 'Julia' is going to give everyone a not so small run for competition;
> > justifiably so,  not just against FORTRAN.
> 
> That and two hundred other languages.
> 

Given that Fortran is here for almost 60 years and lot of effort has
been spent to keep it backwards compatible (AFAIK), I wouldn't hold my
breath. Something may look like cool and great, but wait ten years and
see if after major language revision you can still (more or less)
easily run your existing huge projects with it. Does it require to
give another option to compiler or does it require spending hours or
weeks deep in the code (possibly introducing subtle bugs, too)? So
far, in my opinion, very few languages can stand this test (or perhaps
none at all). Strong candidates are C, Fortran, Common Lisp, and
unfortunately, Java (I can only talk about those which I happened to use
and checked a bit, but not extensively). I'm not really sure about
Python, haven't had time/energy to check yet (but going 1.5->2.x was
painless to me).

> Good languages (for some definition of "good") are a dime a dozen. 
> Miranda, Rust, Go, D, Ceylon, Coffeescript, F#, Scala, Lua, Erlang, 
> Eiffel, Ocaml, Haskell, Kotlin, Grovy, Clojure, Dart, Mercury, ML... the 
> list of "amazing", "astounding" languages is never ending. Very few of 
> them take over the world, and those that do rarely do so due to technical 
> excellence. (BASIC, Java, PHP, Javascript ...)

... and Perl... Even if it's not as bad as I sometimes think. BTW,
after seeing "@" and "$" in Julia manual, I think I will stay aside
for a while.

> Some of them, like Haskell, influence other languages without ever
> being popular themselves.

Interestingly, Haskell developers seem to not care much about old
codebases in their own language (but I didn't make systematic research
of the subject). I hope others will not be influenced by such attitude
:-). Neglecting someone's effort to make working flawless code,
forcing people into periodic rewrites of things that used to work,
such events always blink red in my head.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com             **

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#71324 — Re: Fortran

Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl>:

> Given that Fortran is here for almost 60 years and lot of effort has
> been spent to keep it backwards compatible (AFAIK), I wouldn't hold my
> breath.

I have seen a glimpse of the so-called scientific computing and Fortran
programming. I can't help but think that Fortran is successful with
people who don't know how to program and don't care.

That's fine. If I were to build a cyclotron, I bet the Fortran coders
would smile at my clumsy efforts.


Marko

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#71327 — Re: Fortran

In article <871tw0s2kl.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>,
 Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:

> Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl>:
> 
> > Given that Fortran is here for almost 60 years and lot of effort has
> > been spent to keep it backwards compatible (AFAIK), I wouldn't hold my
> > breath.
> 
> I have seen a glimpse of the so-called scientific computing and Fortran
> programming. I can't help but think that Fortran is successful with
> people who don't know how to program and don't care.
> 
> That's fine. If I were to build a cyclotron, I bet the Fortran coders
> would smile at my clumsy efforts.

It is fine.  Computers are tools.  The sign of a good tool is that you 
can pick it up and use it without having to read the instruction manual.  
I can jump into pretty much any car, start the engine, and drive it, 
without any learning curve.  There's a lot of complicated organic 
chemistry and thermodynamics going on inside the engine's combustion 
chambers, but I don't need to know any of that to make use of the tool.

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#71331 — Re: Fortran

On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> It is fine.  Computers are tools.  The sign of a good tool is that you
> can pick it up and use it without having to read the instruction manual.
> I can jump into pretty much any car, start the engine, and drive it,
> without any learning curve.  There's a lot of complicated organic
> chemistry and thermodynamics going on inside the engine's combustion
> chambers, but I don't need to know any of that to make use of the tool.

Err, I don't know that the analogy is really fair. Either you know how
to drive a car, or you don't; if you do, what you really mean is that
cars are sufficiently standardized that, even though you trained on an
X, you can drive a Y without reading its instruction manual - but if
you don't, then you're basically at the dangerous level of "hey look,
I can type these commands and stuff happens", without knowing the
rather important safety implications of what you're doing. Can you use
a hammer without an instruction manual? Sure! Can you use a circular
saw without reading the instructions? Quite probably, but will you
know how to do it safely?

The organic chemistry and thermodynamics are the car's equivalent of
refcounting and garbage collection. They're absolutely critical if
you're building a car, but in driving one, you almost never need to
care about those details - and it's entirely possible to have a car
that doesn't work the same way (electric, perhaps). I would expect the
instruction manual to be more about things like how to check the oil,
so you don't blow your engine up.

(Caveat: I don't drive, so I might have the details of the analogy
facepalmingly wrong.)

ChrisA

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#71355 — Re: Fortran

On Mon, 12 May 2014 04:08:15 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 3:51 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
>> It is fine.  Computers are tools.  The sign of a good tool is that you
>> can pick it up and use it without having to read the instruction
>> manual. I can jump into pretty much any car, start the engine, and
>> drive it, without any learning curve.  There's a lot of complicated
>> organic chemistry and thermodynamics going on inside the engine's
>> combustion chambers, but I don't need to know any of that to make use
>> of the tool.
> 
> Err, I don't know that the analogy is really fair. Either you know how
> to drive a car, or you don't; if you do, what you really mean is that
> cars are sufficiently standardized that, even though you trained on an
> X, you can drive a Y without reading its instruction manual

Correct. It's a terrible analogy. Cars are relatively simple things, they 
basically have three functions: speed up, turn, slow down. And yet look 
at how many people manage to kill themselves, and others, by doing it 
wrong. In the US, more people die *each year* due to faulty driving than 
American soldiers died in the entire Vietnam war. (The one exception was 
1968.)

Programming languages, on the other hand, have effectively an infinite 
number of functions: most languages come built-in with dozens or 
hundreds, and the programmer then extends them with whatever functions 
they need.

Cars are standardized -- there are basically two types, manuals and 
automatics. Programming languages are not, and thank goodness, because 
they whole point of having multiple programming languages is that they 
have different semantic models and different syntax so as to specialise 
on different tasks. I'm a critic of C the language, but only for 
application development -- it makes a grand high-level assembly language 
for low-level programming by experts where fine control and efficiency is 
more important than simplicity and programmer efficiency. Fortran is 
excellent for long-lasting numeric work, and Inform-7 is excellent for 
writing interactive fiction. I wouldn't write an 3D shooter game in bash, 
and I wouldn't write a throw-away admin script in Java.


> - but if you
> don't, then you're basically at the dangerous level of "hey look, I can
> type these commands and stuff happens", without knowing the rather
> important safety implications of what you're doing. Can you use a hammer
> without an instruction manual? Sure! Can you use a circular saw without
> reading the instructions? Quite probably, but will you know how to do it
> safely?

Circular saws have only a few functions: start spinning, and stop 
spinning. There's a few "gotchas" to learn, related to physical 
properties (momentum, energy transfer, the relative hardness and 
sharpness of the blade versus the softness of your fingers...) and maybe 
a couple of bells and whistles (e.g. can you cut on angles?). It's not 
within an order of magnitude of the complexity of a programming language. 
A better comparison would be with one of these:

http://www.wisegeek.org/what-are-cnc-machines.htm

And no surprise, to operate a CNC machine, the operator typically has to 
program it using a programming language (G-code).



-- 
Steven D'Aprano
http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/

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#71358 — Re: Fortran

On 12/05/2014 00:51, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> Cars are standardized -- there are basically two types, manuals and
> automatics.
>

Sadly they can still go wrong due to modern engineering practices.  In 
my neck of the woods some years ago people were killed when standing at 
a bus stop, because the car driver was desperately pressing down on the 
automatic's brake but EMI overrode the engine controls and the car 
simply went faster.  At least that is what the defence claimed at the 
trial.  With no expert on the prosecution to refute the claim "not 
guilty" was the verdict.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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