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Teaching python to non-programmers

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  Teaching python to non-programmers Lalitha Prasad K <lalithaprasad@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 21:24 +0530
    Re: Teaching python to non-programmers pete.bee.emm@gmail.com - 2014-04-10 10:53 -0700
      Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-04-10 19:36 +0100
        Re: Teaching python to non-programmers pete.bee.emm@gmail.com - 2014-04-10 13:52 -0700
          Re: Teaching python to non-programmers "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-04-10 23:40 +0100
            Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 20:17 -0700
              Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 13:59 +1000
                Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 21:37 -0700
                  Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 15:11 +1000
                    Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2014-04-11 06:34 +0100
                      Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 15:42 +1000
                      Re: Teaching python to non-programmers alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-04-11 10:46 +0000
                        Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 21:01 +1000
                          Re: Teaching python to non-programmers alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-04-11 11:48 +0000
                    Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 22:42 -0700
                      Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 22:54 -0700
                        Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 16:01 +1000
                        Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-11 11:36 +0000
                      Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 16:00 +1000
                      Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-11 11:34 +0000
                        Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2014-04-11 12:46 +0100
                          Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-11 11:59 +0000
                        Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-04-11 07:39 -0500
                        Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 22:50 +1000
                        Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 11:19 -0700
                          Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-12 01:45 +0000
                      Re: Teaching python to non-programmers alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-04-14 16:13 +1000
                        Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-14 00:59 -0600
                  Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 23:39 -0600
                    Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-11 10:07 +0000
                      Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 20:17 +1000
                  Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 15:54 +1000
                  Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-11 09:37 +0000
                Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-11 07:09 +0000
                  Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 17:19 +1000
              Re: Interleaved vs. top-posting Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-04-11 07:44 -0500
                Re: Interleaved vs. top-posting Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2014-04-12 07:28 +0100
            Ostracising bad actors (was: Teaching python to non-programmers) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-04-11 13:28 +1000
            Re: Teaching python to non-programmers pete.bee.emm@gmail.com - 2014-04-11 13:20 -0700
              Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 17:50 -0700
              Re: Teaching python to non-programmers "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-04-13 23:51 +0100
                Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-04-14 00:54 +0100
                  Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-14 00:20 +0000
                    Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-04-14 08:32 +0100
          Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-04-11 14:43 +0100
          Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 09:12 -0500
    Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 11:24 -0700
    Re: Teaching python to non-programmers Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 09:35 -0500

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#70045 — Teaching python to non-programmers

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Dear List

Recently I was requested to teach python to a group of students of GIS
(Geographic Information Systems). Their knowledge of programming is zero.
The objective is to enable them to write plug-ins for GIS software like
QGIS and ArcGIS. It would require them to learn, besides core python, PyQt,
QtDesigner. So my plan is to teach them core python, PyQt, Qt Designer, in
that order. A kind of "bottom up approach". But the students seem to feel
that I should use "top down approach". That is, show them how to write a
plug-in, then PyQt and Qt Designer and then enough of python so they can
handle the above. I don't think, that is possible or a good idea. But I
would like to know, if there are any other approaches.

Thanks and Regards
Lalitha Prasad,

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#70050

Don't underestimate the value of morale. Python is a scripting language. You don't need to teach them very much python to get something working, and you can always revisit the initial code and refactor it for better coding hygiene. 

Someday they might have jobs, and be required to learn things in more of a top down order. ;)

On Thursday, April 10, 2014 8:54:48 AM UTC-7, Lalitha Prasad K wrote:
> Dear List
> 
> Recently I was requested to teach python to a group of students of GIS (Geographic Information Systems). Their knowledge of programming is zero. The objective is to enable them to write plug-ins for GIS software like QGIS and ArcGIS. It would require them to learn, besides core python, PyQt, QtDesigner. So my plan is to teach them core python, PyQt, Qt Designer, in that order. A kind of "bottom up approach". But the students seem to feel that I should use "top down approach". That is, show them how to write a plug-in, then PyQt and Qt Designer and then enough of python so they can handle the above. I don't think, that is possible or a good idea. But I would like to know, if there are any other approaches.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks and Regards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lalitha Prasad, 

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#70055

On 10/04/2014 18:53, pete.bee.emm@gmail.com wrote:
> Don't underestimate the value of morale. Python is a scripting language. You don't need to teach them very much python to get something working, and you can always revisit the initial code and refactor it for better coding hygiene.
>
> Someday they might have jobs, and be required to learn things in more of a top down order. ;)
>
> On Thursday, April 10, 2014 8:54:48 AM UTC-7, Lalitha Prasad K wrote:
>> Dear List
>>
>> Recently I was requested to teach python to a group of students of GIS (Geographic Information Systems). Their knowledge of programming is zero. The objective is to enable them to write plug-ins for GIS software like QGIS and ArcGIS. It would require them to learn, besides core python, PyQt, QtDesigner. So my plan is to teach them core python, PyQt, Qt Designer, in that order. A kind of "bottom up approach". But the students seem to feel that I should use "top down approach". That is, show them how to write a plug-in, then PyQt and Qt Designer and then enough of python so they can handle the above. I don't think, that is possible or a good idea. But I would like to know, if there are any other approaches.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks and Regards
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Lalitha Prasad,

Just awesome, not only do we have double line spacing and single line 
paragraphs, we've also got top posting, oh boy am I a happy bunny :) 
I'll leave someone3 else to explain, I just can't be bothered.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#70063

> 
> Just awesome, not only do we have double line spacing and single line 
> 
> paragraphs, we've also got top posting, oh boy am I a happy bunny :) 
> 
> I'll leave someone3 else to explain, I just can't be bothered.
> 
> 

Do you get paid to be a jerk, or is it just for yuks?  If the latter, you're not funny. 

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#70067

On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 21:52:53 +0100, <pete.bee.emm@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>>
>> Just awesome, not only do we have double line spacing and single line
>>
>> paragraphs, we've also got top posting, oh boy am I a happy bunny :)
>>
>> I'll leave someone3 else to explain, I just can't be bothered.
>>
>>
>
> Do you get paid to be a jerk, or is it just for yuks?  If the latter,  
> you're not funny.

It's called irony, and unfortunately Mark is reacting to an all-to-common  
situation that GoogleGroups foists on unsuspecting posters like yourself.   
It's the result of a fundamental clash of technological cultures; trying  
to impose a pretty web interface on a protocol defined to use unformatted  
plain text.  It fails, inevitably, leaving us Usenet and  
mailing-list-based readers annoyed at being given something unreadable to  
deal with.  Unsurprisingly, most of us don't bother, and won't have read  
more than the first couple of words of your original post.

The wiki page https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython goes into  
some detail of what the rest of us find annoying, and how to fix the  
problems.  I've left the double-spacing that you quoting Mark produced so  
you can see that part of the problem -- if you want to understand why it  
is so hated, imagine that done to a screenful of Python script, then  
quoted by a few more people on GG, until you're only getting half a dozen  
lines of code (or text) on the screen.  That sort of thing is hard work to  
read, and not many bother, and yes, it really does happen.

Top posting is generally poor netiquette, thank you for not doing it this  
time.  Unfortunately you fell into another trap GG lays for you by not  
handling attributions properly.  Or at all this time.  I happen to  
remember that you were replying to Mark Lawrence (just in case it was  
impossible for me to guess from the subject matter :-), but if I hadn't  
remembered that, I wouldn't have known from the context without going and  
searching.  Again, that's work many people won't bother putting in, making  
your post less likely to be read.

Sorry your post was the straw to break the camel's back this week, but it  
is a complete pain to the rest of us.  I have more than once considered  
getting my reader to automatically discard anything with  
"@googlegroups.com" in the message ID just to reduce the aggravation.

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses

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#70086

On Friday, April 11, 2014 4:10:22 AM UTC+5:30, Rhodri James wrote:
> Sorry your post was the straw to break the camel's back this week, but it  
> is a complete pain to the rest of us.  I have more than once considered  
> getting my reader to automatically discard anything with  
> "@googlegroups.com" in the message ID just to reduce the aggravation.

I had a colleague at the university who had taught "System Programming" for the 
fifth year running. One day he confided to us (other colleagues):
  I think I am losing it...
  I am getting impatient and am inclined to tell the class:
      "Ive taught all this to you (so many times!) before
  Until I realize its not this class!!

> The wiki page https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython goes into  
> some detail of what the rest of us find annoying, and how to fix the  
> problems.  

So we need to... (one of)
- Patiently point out that link to each newcomer here
- Silently put up
- Express 'last straw' irritation and get called a jerk
- Canvas with python list owners to stop GG
- Canvas with Google to modify else shut down GG
- Your choice here

> I've left the double-spacing that you quoting Mark produced so  
> you can see that part of the problem -- if you want to understand why it  
> is so hated, imagine that done to a screenful of Python script, then  
> quoted by a few more people on GG, until you're only getting half a dozen  
> lines of code (or text) on the screen.  That sort of thing is hard work to
> read, and not many bother, and yes, it really does happen.

Its no use.
GG hides all the double-spaced, top-posted stuff in a very small font 
"show quoted text". If you want to show it more effectively you need to do 
something like this (or point to the mailing list archive)

> On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 21:52:53 +0100, Pete Bee wrote:
- 
- 
- 
- >
- 
- >>
- 
- >> Just awesome, not only do we have double line spacing and single line
- 
- >>
- 
- >> paragraphs, we've also got top posting, oh boy am I a happy bunny :)
- 
- >>
- 
- >> I'll leave someone3 else to explain, I just can't be bothered.
- 
- >>
- 
- >>
- 
- >
- 
- > Do you get paid to be a jerk, or is it just for yuks?  If the latter,  
-
- > you're not funny.
- 
- 
- 
-----------------------


> Top posting is generally poor netiquette, thank you for not doing it this  
> time.

There are cultures -- far more pervasive than USENET in 2014 -- where
top posting is the norm, eg
- Gmail makes top posting the norm. Compare the figures of gmail and Usenet users
- Corporate cultures more or less require top posting -- helped by MS Outlook
  Else it looks like dishonesty/dissimulation/hiding
- Personally I am on different groups. I tend to top post by default. And its
  as strange and bizarre there as its required minimum etiquette here

> Unfortunately you fell into another trap GG lays for you by not  
> handling attributions properly.  Or at all this time.


[Personally] Double spacing bothers me least, top posting more, non/mis-attribution most

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#70089

On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> There are cultures -- far more pervasive than USENET in 2014 -- where
> top posting is the norm, eg
> - Gmail makes top posting the norm. Compare the figures of gmail and Usenet users
> - Corporate cultures more or less require top posting -- helped by MS Outlook
>   Else it looks like dishonesty/dissimulation/hiding
> - Personally I am on different groups. I tend to top post by default. And its
>   as strange and bizarre there as its required minimum etiquette here

I have seen plenty of cultures where people are unaware of the value
of interleaved/bottom posting, but so far, not one where anyone has
actually required it. Not one. "Norm" here just means "the thing
people are too lazy to not do". That's not a reason for anyone else
doing it.

ChrisA

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#70090

On Friday, April 11, 2014 9:29:00 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> 
> > There are cultures -- far more pervasive than USENET in 2014 -- where
> > top posting is the norm, eg
> 
> > - Gmail makes top posting the norm. Compare the figures of gmail and Usenet users
> > - Corporate cultures more or less require top posting -- helped by MS Outlook
> >   Else it looks like dishonesty/dissimulation/hiding
> > - Personally I am on different groups. I tend to top post by default. And its
> >   as strange and bizarre there as its required minimum etiquette here
> 
> I have seen plenty of cultures where people are unaware of the value
> of interleaved/bottom posting, but so far, not one where anyone has
> actually required it. Not one. "Norm" here just means "the thing
> people are too lazy to not do". That's not a reason for anyone else
> doing it.

Right. Its true that when I was at a fairly large corporate, I was not told:
"Please always top post!"

What I was very gently and super politely told was:
"Please dont delete mail context"

Now when a mail goes round between 5 persons and what is addressed at one point 
is not the immediate previous mail, bottom-posting without pruning is as
meaningless as top posting.

As in religion or any cultural matter, its fine to stand up for and even
vociferously uphold one's 'own' whatever that may be.

What is unhelpful is
- to suggest that my norms are universal norms. IOW there is a fundamental
  difference between natural and human-made laws
- to lose track of statistics, in this case the population-densities of USENET 
  vs other internet-kiddie cultures

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#70091

On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right. Its true that when I was at a fairly large corporate, I was not told:
> "Please always top post!"
>
> What I was very gently and super politely told was:
> "Please dont delete mail context"

Then you were told that by someone who does not understand email.
That's equivalent to being told "Don't ever delete any of your code,
just comment it out". I don't care who's saying that, it's bad advice.

> Now when a mail goes round between 5 persons and what is addressed at one point
> is not the immediate previous mail, bottom-posting without pruning is as
> meaningless as top posting.

Yep. So you bottom-post *and prune*, because that is how email needs
to be. You do not need to repeatedly send copies of the whole thread
everywhere.

> What is unhelpful is
> - to suggest that my norms are universal norms. IOW there is a fundamental
>   difference between natural and human-made laws
> - to lose track of statistics, in this case the population-densities of USENET
>   vs other internet-kiddie cultures

Also unhelpful is to suggest that norms should, simply *because* they
are the prevailing practice, be maintained. Even if everyone else on
python-list top-posted, I would still bottom-post and trim. "Normal"
is not a justification.

ChrisA

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#70093

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Right. Its true that when I was at a fairly large corporate, I was not told:
>> "Please always top post!"
>>
>> What I was very gently and super politely told was:
>> "Please dont delete mail context"
>
> Then you were told that by someone who does not understand email.

It's not necessarily a bad idea to retain context in corporate
emails. Messages tend to get forwarded to people other than the original
recipient(s), and the context can be very helpful.

But when you're posting to a mailing list or to a usenet group different
considerations apply as there's usually a way of seeing the whole
thread.

Email is often a poor relatively poor medium for internal communication,
because of this problem. Also people who might properly have a something
useful to say on the subject matter may never get to see the email.

A private news server or web forum is often better.

That's not to say that there's no place for email in internal
communication, but it's best reserved for occasions where
confidentiality is required, or at least politic.

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#70097

On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 3:34 PM, Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What I was very gently and super politely told was:
>>> "Please dont delete mail context"
>>
>> Then you were told that by someone who does not understand email.
>
> It's not necessarily a bad idea to retain context in corporate
> emails. Messages tend to get forwarded to people other than the original
> recipient(s), and the context can be very helpful.

A good mail client will let you forward an entire thread all at once.
That covers the use-case without polluting *every single email ever
sent* with the entire history. Plus, a decent client should let you
forward some without others, which would mean you don't have the
awkward situation of sending someone all the internal discussion
("just send this guy the standard cockroach letter") that led to the
final decision.

Retaining context should either be done with an internal wiki or
forum, or by reading up in the retained emails. You don't need to
duplicate all context every post in any medium.

ChrisA

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#70120

On Fri, 11 Apr 2014 06:34:46 +0100, Paul Rudin wrote:
> 
> It's not necessarily a bad idea to retain context in corporate emails.
> Messages tend to get forwarded to people other than the original
> recipient(s), and the context can be very helpful.
> 
Right up to the point when someone forwards on an internal email chain to 
an external customer without bothering to prune out the bit where someone 
(usually an engineer like myself) has stated (bluntly) that what the 
salesman is proposing will never work*.

the longer the chain the more likely it is for something like that to be 
missed by the sender who wont have bothered to read everything (for some 
reason the recipient always finds the embarrassing statements).
 
*Or some other commercially sensitive & even more damming piece of 
information.


-- 
Having children is like having a bowling alley installed in your brain.
		-- Martin Mull

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#70121

On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 8:46 PM, alister
<alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Right up to the point when someone forwards on an internal email chain to
> an external customer without bothering to prune out the bit where someone
> (usually an engineer like myself) has stated (bluntly) that what the
> salesman is proposing will never work*.
>
> the longer the chain the more likely it is for something like that to be
> missed by the sender who wont have bothered to read everything (for some
> reason the recipient always finds the embarrassing statements).
>
> *Or some other commercially sensitive & even more damming piece of
> information.

According to Snopes, that has happened in an email variant of the old
"send this guy the standard cockroach letter" story (which is itself
plausible and not provably false):

http://www.snopes.com/business/consumer/bedbug.asp

ChrisA

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#70126

On Fri, 11 Apr 2014 21:01:46 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 8:46 PM, alister
> <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Right up to the point when someone forwards on an internal email chain
>> to an external customer without bothering to prune out the bit where
>> someone (usually an engineer like myself) has stated (bluntly) that
>> what the salesman is proposing will never work*.
>>
>> the longer the chain the more likely it is for something like that to
>> be missed by the sender who wont have bothered to read everything (for
>> some reason the recipient always finds the embarrassing statements).
>>
>> *Or some other commercially sensitive & even more damming piece of
>> information.
> 
> According to Snopes, that has happened in an email variant of the old
> "send this guy the standard cockroach letter" story (which is itself
> plausible and not provably false):
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/business/consumer/bedbug.asp
> 
> ChrisA

forget Snopes I have personally been hauled into a managers office 
because something i put in an email to another member of staff was then 
forwarded to the customer.

Fortunately my defence of "internal emails should not be being forwarded 
to customers without being sanitised" was accepted (& the other member of 
staff educated)



-- 
Code like that would not pass through anybody's yuck-o-meter.

	- Linus Torvalds about design on linux-kernel

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#70096

On Friday, April 11, 2014 10:41:26 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Rustom Mody  wrote:
> > Right. Its true that when I was at a fairly large corporate, I was not told:
> > "Please always top post!"
> >
> > What I was very gently and super politely told was:
> > "Please dont delete mail context"
>
> Then you were told that by someone who does not understand email.

In middle-eastern society women are expected to dress heavier than in the West.
A few years ago a girl went to school in France with a scarf and she was penalized.

You seem to be cocksure who is right.
Im just curious who you think it is :-)

People whose familiarity with religion is limited to the Judeo-Christian
tradition are inclined to the view (usually implicit) that
"being religious" == "belief in God"
However there are religions where belief in God is irreligious -- Jainism
And others where it is is irrelevant -- Tao, Shinto.
[There is the story of a westerner who wen to a shinto temple and said:
All this (rites) is fine and beautiful but what's your *philosophy*
To which he was told: "Philosophy? We have no philosophy! We dance!"]


>
> That's equivalent to being told "Don't ever delete any of your code,
> just comment it out". I don't care who's saying that, it's bad advice.

The correct analogy: "Dont ever delete content from the repository"

>
> > Now when a mail goes round between 5 persons and what is addressed at one point
> > is not the immediate previous mail, bottom-posting without pruning is as
> > meaningless as top posting.
>
>
> Yep. So you bottom-post *and prune*, because that is how email needs
> to be. You do not need to repeatedly send copies of the whole thread
> everywhere.
>
>
> > What is unhelpful is
> > - to suggest that my norms are universal norms. IOW there is a fundamental
> >   difference between natural and human-made laws
> > - to lose track of statistics, in this case the population-densities of USENET
> >   vs other internet-kiddie cultures
>
>
>
> Also unhelpful is to suggest that norms should, simply *because* they
> are the prevailing practice, be maintained. Even if everyone else on
> python-list top-posted, I would still bottom-post and trim. "Normal"
> is not a justification.

Ok no argument here.
On the python list that is the norm.
Most people who are first timers have no clue about that norm.

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#70099

On Friday, April 11, 2014 11:12:14 AM UTC+5:30, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Friday, April 11, 2014 10:41:26 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > Also unhelpful is to suggest that norms should, simply *because* they
> > are the prevailing practice, be maintained. Even if everyone else on
> > python-list top-posted, I would still bottom-post and trim. "Normal"
> > is not a justification.
> 
> Ok no argument here.
> On the python list that is the norm.
> Most people who are first timers have no clue about that norm.

Just to make it clear:
1. I have no objection to the python list culture.
  As I said I tend to follow it in places where it is not the norm and get  
  chided for it
  [For the record on other groups which are exclusively GG/gmail based Ive been
  told that because I am geek/nerd I do it in a strange way] 
2. Nor to people getting irritated with others not following it and telling 
   them off

What I am pointing out is that if one gets so besotted with irritation as to 
lose coherence, its unlikely that any useful communication will ensue.

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#70103

On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 3:54 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to make it clear:
> 1. I have no objection to the python list culture.
>   As I said I tend to follow it in places where it is not the norm and get
>   chided for it
>   [For the record on other groups which are exclusively GG/gmail based Ive been
>   told that because I am geek/nerd I do it in a strange way]
> 2. Nor to people getting irritated with others not following it and telling
>    them off
>
> What I am pointing out is that if one gets so besotted with irritation as to
> lose coherence, its unlikely that any useful communication will ensue.

Then be the geek/nerd. Do something more useful. See how many people
start finding that it's actually the better way.

ChrisA

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#70123

On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 22:54:23 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote:

> What I am pointing out is that if one gets so besotted with irritation
> as to lose coherence, its unlikely that any useful communication will
> ensue.

This, a million times.

If all we do is be curmudgeons who complain about GG's poor posting 
styles, we will end up making this forum irrelevant.



-- 
Steven D'Aprano
http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/

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#70102

On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> People whose familiarity with religion is limited to the Judeo-Christian
> tradition are inclined to the view (usually implicit) that
> "being religious" == "belief in God"
> However there are religions where belief in God is irreligious -- Jainism
> And others where it is is irrelevant -- Tao, Shinto.
> [There is the story of a westerner who wen to a shinto temple and said:
> All this (rites) is fine and beautiful but what's your *philosophy*
> To which he was told: "Philosophy? We have no philosophy! We dance!"]

That's nothing to do with norms, though. The norm might be to follow
Taoism, but that doesn't make it more right - just more normal.

>> That's equivalent to being told "Don't ever delete any of your code,
>> just comment it out". I don't care who's saying that, it's bad advice.
>
> The correct analogy: "Dont ever delete content from the repository"

Generally, a repository won't let you truly delete anything, which is
exactly my point: you can delete lines of code from the current file
without losing anything. If you want to see the context, you go and
look at context, you don't need it to be right there in the current
file. Same with email - and often even easier, because your client
will let you simply scroll up and see what was said previously.

ChrisA

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#70122

On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 22:42:14 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote:

> In middle-eastern society women are expected to dress heavier than in
> the West. A few years ago a girl went to school in France with a scarf
> and she was penalized.

Citation please. I think this is bogus, although given how obnoxious some 
schools can be I'm not quite prepared to rule it out altogether. I think 
it's far more likely that she was only penalized for wearing full head-
covering (not just a scarf) after being warned that it was not part of 
the school uniform and therefore not appropriate.


[...]
> People whose familiarity with religion is limited to the Judeo-Christian
> tradition are inclined to the view (usually implicit) that "being
> religious" == "belief in God"
> However there are religions where belief in God is irreligious --
> Jainism 

I think that it will come as rather a surprise to Jains to be told that 
they don't believe in god. In fact, they believe in a multitude of gods 
(not surprising, as Jainism is derived from Hinduism) and believe that 
every soul has the potential to become a god. 


> And others where it is is irrelevant -- Tao, Shinto. [There is
> the story of a westerner who wen to a shinto temple and said: All this
> (rites) is fine and beautiful but what's your *philosophy* To which he
> was told: "Philosophy? We have no philosophy! We dance!"]

A nice story, but the name "Shinto" even means "The Way Of The Gods", so 
claiming that Shinto is not about gods is rubbish.

It might be true that there is a particular Shinto temple where they have 
no religious beliefs and just dance for the love of it, but that's hardly 
the case for *all* Shinto. That would be a bit like claiming that 
Christians don't believe in god because some Unitarians are atheists. 
Shinto has no founder, no overarching doctrine, and no official religious 
texts, so you are more likely to find widely-varying religiosity than 
among Christian churches, but to generalise to all Shinto is misleading.

Similarly for Taoism (Daoism). The Tao itself is not a religious concept, 
it is more of a mystical/philosophical concept than a theistic one, but 
Taoism is a religion with many gods. It seems to me that your statement 
that belief in gods is irrelevant to Taoism is making the same category 
mistake as it would be to say that belief in Jesus is irrelevant to 
Christianity because Faith is not a religious concept[1].


>> That's equivalent to being told "Don't ever delete any of your code,
>> just comment it out". I don't care who's saying that, it's bad advice.
> 
> The correct analogy: "Dont ever delete content from the repository"

No -- the repository is the email archive. (Your inbox, perhaps.) You 
don't keep a copy of the entire repo in every source file.



[1] Or at least, not necessarily a religious concept.

-- 
Steven D'Aprano
http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/

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