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Groups > comp.lang.python > #43916 > unrolled thread
| Started by | lcrocker <lee@piclab.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2013-04-19 10:17 -0700 |
| Last post | 2013-04-20 00:05 +0000 |
| Articles | 4 on this page of 44 — 13 participants |
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Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter lcrocker <lee@piclab.com> - 2013-04-19 10:17 -0700
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-04-19 13:25 -0400
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter lcrocker <leedanielcrocker@gmail.com> - 2013-04-19 10:30 -0700
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-04-19 12:35 -0500
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter lcrocker <leedanielcrocker@gmail.com> - 2013-04-19 10:42 -0700
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-19 10:53 -0700
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-04-19 13:05 -0500
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola@web.de> - 2013-04-20 18:10 +0200
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-22 03:57 +0000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-21 21:10 -0700
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-04-21 23:24 -0500
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-21 21:34 -0700
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 00:13 -0500
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 07:36 +0100
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-22 07:17 +0000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 03:08 -0500
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-22 09:18 +0000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-04-22 14:52 +0200
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-23 00:22 +0000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-23 10:36 +1000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-23 04:03 +0000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-23 14:11 +1000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 19:47 -0500
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-23 05:49 +0000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-04-23 02:33 -0500
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 20:50 -0700
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-04-23 07:57 +0100
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 22:09 +0100
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-22 23:30 +0000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-04-23 07:44 +0100
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-23 05:01 -0700
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2013-04-23 07:33 +0100
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-23 16:41 +1000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-04-23 07:48 +0100
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-23 17:34 +1000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter lcrocker <leedanielcrocker@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 04:18 -0700
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 05:08 -0700
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 23:07 +1000
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 22:00 +0100
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 07:35 +0100
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-04-22 04:16 -0700
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2013-04-19 19:53 +0200
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Terry Jan Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-04-19 14:42 -0400
Re: Ubuntu package "python3" does not include tkinter Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-04-20 00:05 +0000
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| From | rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-04-22 04:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <4c598dba-8167-4c84-b9dd-2f9a840859b8@g5g2000pbp.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #44038 |
On Apr 22, 11:35 am, Rui Maciel <rui.mac...@gmail.com> wrote: > lcrocker wrote: > > > > I recently recommended > > Python to a friend who wants to start learning programming. Hurdles > > like this don't help someone like him. > > If your friend believes that having to do an extra pair of clicks or typing > sudo apt-get install python-tk is an unbeatable hurdle then your friend's > computer skills are awfully lacking and he won't have much success learning > how to write programs. There are two worldviews here and they are as far as far can be. Its good to see them before arguing. 1. python as a standalone language 2. python as part of an (OS-related) ecosystem In windows python may or may not exist. And if it exists and I go inside the python directories and start messing around -- deleting some files, modifying others etc -- what will happen? Nothing much. My python programs will stop working. Presumably if I reinstall, it will be fine thereafter. What about linux? As an experiment I just tried $ aptitude purge python #Noobs BEWARE of that command and aptitude was too confused to give me a coherent report Tried then $ aptitude purge python2.7 The list of packages that it would purge was in hundreds. Heres a small sample of what would go: Firstly there are all the python-* packages. This is obvious. Not so obvious that some like python-csound were probably installed by me. Others like python-debian are needed for the basic health and functioning of the system. And besides these there are a pile of others that have no relation to python. A sample: asciidoc, bzr, dia, eog, gcj-*, gdb(!!), gimp, gnome-* (about 20 of these) printconf… So python is completely optional in windows. It is a part of the infrastructure on linux Messing with it is almost like saying: "I dont see what that vmlinuz file is doing in /boot. So I removed it." Coming to the OP question: a. The python that PSF provides is suitable for learning python b. The python that linux distros provide is part of the wireframe on which the system rests. b may be derived from a but they are hardly the same. They may look very similar but their intents are quite different. So when you say > If your friend believes that having to do an extra pair of clicks or typing > sudo apt-get install python-tk is an unbeatable hurdle then your friend's > computer skills are awfully lacking and he won't have much success learning > how to write programs. Its all correct what you say. You wont have too many people learning from you if thats how you say it. Remember that the difference between an expert and a noob is rarely a question of intelligence or diligence. Its just some boring trivial mountain of data that the expert has picked up over time
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| From | Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-04-19 19:53 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.833.1366394038.3114.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #43916 |
lcrocker wrote: > Am I mistaken in my belief that tkinter is a non-optional part of the > Python language? I installed the "python3" package on Ubuntu, and > tkinter is not included--it's an optional package "python3-tk" that > has to be installed separately. I reported this as a bug as was > summarily slapped down. > > Can we apply some pressure to Ubuntu to fix this? Python is a > trademark, is it not? Can Ubuntu legally claim that their "Python" > package is an implementation of the language if it does not include > the whole language? Thank you for bringing this criminal offense to our attention. Right now a PSU team is readying their black helicopters to get Mr Shuttleworth and his accompli
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| From | Terry Jan Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-04-19 14:42 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.838.1366396958.3114.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #43916 |
On 4/19/2013 1:17 PM, lcrocker wrote: > Am I mistaken in my belief that tkinter is a non-optional part of the > Python language? Yes. The PSF CPython Windows installer makes installation of tcl/tk/tkinter optional. The build files will compile and build Python without tkinter and without other modules that depend on other c libraries (example, lzma). I believe one can build python 2 without unicode, which is much more 'core' than the Tkinter module. > I installed the "python3" package on Ubuntu, and > tkinter is not included--it's an optional package "python3-tk" that > has to be installed separately. I reported this as a bug as was > summarily slapped down. I hope it was done politely ;-). Overall, Ubuntu is relatively advanced in moving to new versions. I believe I read that they are hoping to make 3.3 the default Python as soon as possible.
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-04-20 00:05 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <5171dbba$0$29977$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #43916 |
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:17:58 -0700, lcrocker wrote: > Am I mistaken in my belief that tkinter is a non-optional part of the > Python language? I installed the "python3" package on Ubuntu, and > tkinter is not included--it's an optional package "python3-tk" that has > to be installed separately. I reported this as a bug as was summarily > slapped down. Personally, I think that is a silly design by Ubuntu, but tkinter is optional and they're free to distribute Python with or without it. That becomes a *quality of implementation* issue: some distributions may be more complete, easier to install, more up-to-date, etc. than others, but they're still Python. There is Python the language, which is distinct from the CPython implementation (to say nothing of other implementations like Jython, IronPython, Stackless, PyPy, ...), and then there is the standard library. Much of the standard library is optional, although unfortunately the documentation doesn't really make that as clear as it should. Tkinter depends on you have Tk/Tcl installed, which on Linux and Unix systems depends on you having X installed. Personally, I think that a good packaging system should ensure that once you install Tk/Tcl, tkinter should "just work". But there may be technical reasons why this is impossible. If you ever build Python from source, you will often get warnings that it could not build certain modules. I spent a fruitless couple of hours last week trying to install Python 2.7 from scratch with sqlite, before giving up. What I got was still Python 2.7. It was just Python 2.7 without sqlite (and four or five other modules, which I don't care about and don't remember). > Can we apply some pressure to Ubuntu to fix this? Python is a trademark, > is it not? Can Ubuntu legally claim that their "Python" package is an > implementation of the language if it does not include the whole > language? Tkinter is not part of the language. The tkinter module is an interface to another language, not part of Python the language itself. There are platforms where Tk/Tcl do not exist, platforms which may not even have a GUI environment at all. Do you really intend to say that it is forbidden to have Python on such platforms? -- Steven
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