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Origin of 'self'

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  Origin of 'self' Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2014-03-02 22:16 -0800
    Re:Origin of 'self' Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-03-03 01:49 -0500
    Re: Origin of 'self' Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-03 06:52 +0000
      Re: Origin of 'self' Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 17:56 -0800
        Re: Origin of 'self' Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-06 17:43 +0000
        Re: Origin of 'self' Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-06 19:46 +0200
    Re: Origin of 'self' Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 00:03 -0700
    Re: Origin of 'self' Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-03 13:35 -0500
    Re: Origin of 'self' Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-03-03 21:09 -0500
      Re: Origin of 'self' Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-03 21:14 -0500
        Re: Origin of 'self' Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-03-04 19:27 -0500
    Re: Origin of 'self' Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 13:13 +1100
    Re: Origin of 'self' MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-04 12:47 +0000
      Re: Origin of 'self' Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 14:27 +0000
        Re: Origin of 'self' MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-04 17:10 +0000
      Re: Origin of 'self' Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 19:45 -0800
        Re: Origin of 'self' MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-05 03:58 +0000
    Re: Origin of 'self' Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-03-04 19:25 -0500

#67511 — Origin of 'self'

I understand that in an object method the first argument in the object itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called self, and can be called anything.  So my question is why is it called self and not this like from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a silly question, but one that I'm curious about nevertheless.

Sincerely,
Westley Martínez

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#67512

 Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> Wrote in message:
> I understand that in an object method the first argument in the object itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called self, and can be called anything.  So my question is why is it called self and not this like from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a silly question, but one that I'm curious about nevertheless.
> 

I couldn't tell you the history,  but I can say it makes sense to
 me. In c++, this is a pointer,  and the name this seems
 reasonable.  But in python it's a reference,  a reference to
 myself. 

-- 
DaveA

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#67514

On Sun, 02 Mar 2014 22:16:31 -0800, Westley Martínez wrote:

> I understand that in an object method the first argument in the object
> itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called self, and
> can be called anything.  So my question is why is it called self and not
> this like from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a silly question, but one
> that I'm curious about nevertheless.

A better question is why C++ and Java used "this" instead of "self" like 
Smalltalk. It's fairly clear that Java copied C++, but why did C++ use 
"this"?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_programming_languages_%28object-oriented_programming%29#Special_variables


As far as I can tell, Simula 67 (the first OOP programming language) 
doesn't seem to use a standard name for the current instance, it appears 
to be unneeded. But Simula 67 was the inspiration for Smalltalk, invented 
by Alan Kay at Xerox PARC in the 1970s, and Smalltalk used "self". 
Virtually everything in OOP that followed was influenced by or derived 
from Smalltalk.



-- 
Steven

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#67907

Why did C++ use this? I don't really like this. It doesn't sound right. I think it's because I have trouble saying the th sound without getting my mouth full of spit.

Thankfully you don't often need to use this in C++ like you do with self in Python.

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#67943

On 06/03/2014 01:56, Westley Martínez wrote:
> Why did C++ use this? I don't really like this. It doesn't sound right. I think it's because I have trouble saying the th sound without getting my mouth full of spit.
>
> Thankfully you don't often need to use this in C++ like you do with self in Python.
>

You don't need to use self, you can call it anything you like, but 
you'll not be particularly popular if you do this.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#67944

Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com>:

> Thankfully you don't often need to use this in C++ like you do with
> self in Python.

Self pity is not attractive.


Marko

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#67515

On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> wrote:
> I understand that in an object method the first argument in the object itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called self, and can be called anything.  So my question is why is it called self and not this like from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a silly question, but one that I'm curious about nevertheless.

The idea of requiring references to attributes and methods of self to
be explicit comes from Modula-3; likely the naming convention follows
the same lineage.

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#67571

On 3/3/2014 1:16 AM, Westley Martínez wrote:
> I understand that in an object method the first argument in the
> object itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called
> self, and can be called anything.  So my question is why is it called
> self and not this like from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a silly
> question, but one that I'm curious about nevertheless.

Three responses and I learned or had something pointed out in each. That 
is a better track record than most threads.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#67624

On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:16:31 -0800 (PST), Westley Martínez
<anikom15@gmail.com> declaimed the following:

>I understand that in an object method the first argument in the object itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called self, and can be called anything.  So my question is why is it called self and not this like from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a silly question, but one that I'm curious about nevertheless.
>

	It didn't want to be egotistical (as I recall, M$ VB uses "me")
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#67627

In article <mailman.7684.1393898999.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:16:31 -0800 (PST), Westley Martínez
> <anikom15@gmail.com> declaimed the following:
> 
> >I understand that in an object method the first argument in the object 
> >itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called self, and can be 
> >called anything.  So my question is why is it called self and not this like 
> >from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a silly question, but one that I'm curious 
> >about nevertheless.
> >
> 
> 	It didn't want to be egotistical (as I recall, M$ VB uses "me")

And Freud uses "id", but that was taken already in Python :-)

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#67770

On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 21:14:44 -0500, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> declaimed the
following:

>In article <mailman.7684.1393898999.18130.python-list@python.org>,
> Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:16:31 -0800 (PST), Westley Martínez
>> <anikom15@gmail.com> declaimed the following:
>> 
>> >I understand that in an object method the first argument in the object 
>> >itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called self, and can be 
>> >called anything.  So my question is why is it called self and not this like 
>> >from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a silly question, but one that I'm curious 
>> >about nevertheless.
>> >
>> 
>> 	It didn't want to be egotistical (as I recall, M$ VB uses "me")
>
>And Freud uses "id", but that was taken already in Python :-)

	Not to mention that the "id" is not the "ego"...
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#67626

On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:16:31 -0800 (PST), Westley Martínez
> <anikom15@gmail.com> declaimed the following:
>
>>I understand that in an object method the first argument in the object itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called self, and can be called anything.  So my question is why is it called self and not this like from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a silly question, but one that I'm curious about nevertheless.
>>
>
>         It didn't want to be egotistical (as I recall, M$ VB uses "me")

ALL language designers are egotistical. Goes with the territory.

(Larry Wall said that, I believe, regarding Perl.)

ChrisA

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#67668

On 2014-03-04 02:09, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:16:31 -0800 (PST), Westley Martínez
> <anikom15@gmail.com> declaimed the following:
>
>> I understand that in an object method the first argument in the
>> object itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called
>> self, and can be called anything.  So my question is why is it
>> called self and not this like from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a
>> silly question, but one that I'm curious about nevertheless.
>>
>
> It didn't want to be egotistical (as I recall, M$ VB uses "me")
>
So does AppleScript.

<OT>
In AppleScript a script can refer to the title of a window as "title of
window" or "window's title", and it can refer to the title of its own
window as "title of window of me" or "me's window's title". Consistent,
yes, but bad English.

That's why I prefer a programming language not to be too much like a
natural language. :-)

</OT>

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#67680

On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 12:47:09 +0000, MRAB wrote:

> In AppleScript a script can refer to the title of a window as "title of
> window" or "window's title", and it can refer to the title of its own
> window as "title of window of me" or "me's window's title". Consistent,
> yes, but bad English.
> 
> That's why I prefer a programming language not to be too much like a
> natural language. :-)

But the problem with that is not that it is too much like a natural 
language, but too little like a natural language.



-- 
Steven D'Aprano
http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/

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#67707

On 2014-03-04 14:27, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 12:47:09 +0000, MRAB wrote:
>
>> In AppleScript a script can refer to the title of a window as
>> "title of window" or "window's title", and it can refer to the
>> title of its own window as "title of window of me" or "me's
>> window's title". Consistent, yes, but bad English.
>>
>> That's why I prefer a programming language not to be too much like
>> a natural language. :-)
>
> But the problem with that is not that it is too much like a natural
> language, but too little like a natural language.
>
The more it's like a natural language, the more intelligent you expect
it to be, and the more you expect it to be able to work out ambiguities
for itself.

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#67788

On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 6:17:09 PM UTC+5:30, MRAB wrote:
> On 2014-03-04 02:09, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> > On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:16:31 -0800 (PST), Westley Martínez declaimed:
> >> I understand that in an object method the first argument in the
> >> object itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called
> >> self, and can be called anything.  So my question is why is it
> >> called self and not this like from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a
> >> silly question, but one that I'm curious about nevertheless.
> > It didn't want to be egotistical (as I recall, M$ VB uses "me")
> So does AppleScript.

> <OT>

> In AppleScript a script can refer to the title of a window as "title of
> window" or "window's title", and it can refer to the title of its own
> window as "title of window of me" or "me's window's title". Consistent,
> yes, but bad English.

> That's why I prefer a programming language not to be too much like a
> natural language. :-)

> </OT>

<Continue-OT>

There could be other conclusions.  Such as that English could learn
from AppleScript to not make bogus distinctions between me and my. Or
latin in which case is sufficiently explicit that word-order does not matter

<Even-more-OT>
Reminds me of
"How do we know whether smoking causes cancer or cancer causes smoking?"
</Even-more-OT>

</Continue-OT>

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#67789

On 2014-03-05 03:45, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 6:17:09 PM UTC+5:30, MRAB wrote:
>> On 2014-03-04 02:09, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>> > On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:16:31 -0800 (PST), Westley Martínez declaimed:
>
>> >> I understand that in an object method the first argument in the
>> >> object itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called
>> >> self, and can be called anything.  So my question is why is it
>> >> called self and not this like from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a
>> >> silly question, but one that I'm curious about nevertheless.
>> > It didn't want to be egotistical (as I recall, M$ VB uses "me")
>> So does AppleScript.
>
>> <OT>
>
>> In AppleScript a script can refer to the title of a window as "title of
>> window" or "window's title", and it can refer to the title of its own
>> window as "title of window of me" or "me's window's title". Consistent,
>> yes, but bad English.
>
>> That's why I prefer a programming language not to be too much like a
>> natural language. :-)
>
>> </OT>
>
> <Continue-OT>
>
> There could be other conclusions.  Such as that English could learn
> from AppleScript to not make bogus distinctions between me and my. Or
> latin in which case is sufficiently explicit that word-order does not matter
>
Latin's not that explicit: the endings aren't unique within a
declension.

> <Even-more-OT>
> Reminds me of
> "How do we know whether smoking causes cancer or cancer causes smoking?"
> </Even-more-OT>
>
> </Continue-OT>
>

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#67766

On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 13:13:24 +1100, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
declaimed the following:

>On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 22:16:31 -0800 (PST), Westley Martínez
>> <anikom15@gmail.com> declaimed the following:
>>
>>>I understand that in an object method the first argument in the object itself, called self.  However, it doesn't have to be called self, and can be called anything.  So my question is why is it called self and not this like from C++ and Java.  It's kind of a silly question, but one that I'm curious about nevertheless.
>>>
>>
>>         It didn't want to be egotistical (as I recall, M$ VB uses "me")
>
>ALL language designers are egotistical. Goes with the territory.
>
	Ah, but I was referring to the language itself, not the designer...
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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