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Re: Newcomer Help

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  Re: Newcomer Help Walter Hughey <walter.hughey@okbu.edu> - 2014-02-13 10:22 -0500
    Re: Newcomer Help Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 08:22 -0800
      Re: Newcomer Help Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 11:32 -0500
        Welcome to the Internet. No one here likes you. (was: Newcomer Help) John Ladasky <john_ladasky@sbcglobal.net> - 2014-02-13 09:49 -0800
          Re: Welcome to the Internet. No one here likes you. (was: Newcomer Help) Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 13:03 -0500
        Re: Newcomer Help Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-02-13 18:02 +0000
      Community standards of behaviour (was: Newcomer Help) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-14 04:05 +1100
      Re: Newcomer Help David Robinow <drobinow@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 09:02 -0500

#66184 — Re: Newcomer Help

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Chris Angelico" <rosuav@gmail.com> 
Cc: "Python-List" <python-list@python.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 3:22:57 PM 
Subject: Re: Newcomer Help 

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 8:07 AM, Tim Delaney 
<timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> wrote: 
> On 13 February 2014 02:17, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote: 
>> I've always worked in corporations where the email "culture" is the 
>> Microsoft-induced "lazy and stupid" style as you describe. 


ChrisA 
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list 



I am addressing this to the entire site - I thinks. And this will be my final answer on this subject. 
It remains to be seen if I remain on this site or tell all good bye. 

For the most part, the few people who responded have responded in a polite manner, 
in an attempt to help me understand how this site works. And I have tried to fall into line when 
responding to emails. It probably appeared to some I was not trying to get on board but this 
is a significant change to the 20+years of my being involved in emails. 

And yes Gisle Vanem, in spite of your doubts, I have been involved in emails in excess of 20 years.
I suppose most of that has been in the "Microsoft-induced 'lazy and stupid' style" as identified by 
{Grant Edward}. However, I have responded to news lists and email groups previously.


As I have stated, most people have been kind and helpful. Some have addressed my lack of conformance 
to the policies and procedures and have attempted to instruct me in a polite manner. To those I say
Thank You for your understanding and attempts to help me.

Some have provided answers to the initial issues I had. And as a novice to programming, I do 
appreciate their assistance. I have not attempted all the possible fixes yet but I will i the 
near future. I say Thank You to each of you.

To those who responded in a much less friendly attitude, even at times coming across in a very rude
manner - I really have nothing to say. You have not attempted to help resolve my initial issues and
your attitudes have caused me to feel this is not a place where I can learn much. Yes, there is a lot
I could learn, but some attitudes make me desire to no longer be involved in discussions.

Walter

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#66189

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:52:51 PM UTC+5:30, Walter Hughey wrote:

> I am addressing this to the entire site - I thinks. And this will be my final answer on this subject. 
> It remains to be seen if I remain on this site or tell all good bye. 

> For the most part, the few people who responded have responded in a polite manner, 
> in an attempt to help me understand how this site works. And I have tried to fall into line when 
> responding to emails. It probably appeared to some I was not trying to get on board but this 
> is a significant change to the 20+years of my being involved in emails. 

> And yes Gisle Vanem, in spite of your doubts, I have been involved in emails in excess of 20 years.
> I suppose most of that has been in the "Microsoft-induced 'lazy and stupid' style" as identified by 
> {Grant Edward}. However, I have responded to news lists and email groups previously.

> As I have stated, most people have been kind and helpful. Some have addressed my lack of conformance 
> to the policies and procedures and have attempted to instruct me in a polite manner. To those I say
> Thank You for your understanding and attempts to help me.

> Some have provided answers to the initial issues I had. And as a novice to programming, I do 
> appreciate their assistance. I have not attempted all the possible fixes yet but I will i the 
> near future. I say Thank You to each of you.

> To those who responded in a much less friendly attitude, even at times coming across in a very rude
> manner - I really have nothing to say. You have not attempted to help resolve my initial issues and
> your attitudes have caused me to feel this is not a place where I can learn much. Yes, there is a lot
> I could learn, but some attitudes make me desire to no longer be involved in discussions.

I am reminded of a story from the book Outliers.
It regards a Colombian plane crash near New York some decades ago.
The plane had run out of fuel.
The pilot and his assistant tried to communicate this to the control tower.
Now the NY control tower guys are described as the most efficient in the world
-- and the rudest.
So when the pilots got some piece of  NY rudeness they said "Yes Sir!"
slunk off and crashed the plane! (Instead of shouting MAYDAY or whatever pilots 
are supposed to do in such circumstances).

This is Usenet. You'll learn much here and you'll find a bunch of rude people.

No you are not going to crash your plane but you will likely crash your
python-learning attempts if you give an occasional asshole more importance 
than is his due.

I suggest 
1. You focus on your goal -- learning python or whatever is the larger 
personal goal of which learning python is a part
2. A bullet-proof vest

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#66190

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is Usenet. You'll learn much here and you'll find a bunch of rude people.
>
> No you are not going to crash your plane but you will likely crash your
> python-learning attempts if you give an occasional asshole more importance
> than is his due.
>
> I suggest
> 1. You focus on your goal -- learning python or whatever is the larger
> personal goal of which learning python is a part
> 2. A bullet-proof vest

This reminds me of post that was circulating in the early 90's:

Welcome to the Internet.

No one here likes you.

We're going to offend, insult, abuse, and belittle the living hell out
of you. And when you rail against us with "FUCK YOU YOU GEEK WIMP
SKATER GOTH LOSER PUNK FAG BITCH!1!!", we smile to ourselves. We laugh
at you because you don't get it. Then we turn up the heat, hoping to
draw more entertainment from your irrational fuming.

We will judge you, and we will find you unworthy. It is a trial by
fire, and we won't even think about turning down the flames until you
finally understand.

Some of you are smart enough to realize that, when you go online, it's
like entering a foreign country ... and you know better than to
ignorantly fuck with the locals. You take the time to listen and think
before speaking. You learn, and by learning are gladly welcomed.

For some of you, it takes a while, then one day it all dawns on you -
you get it, and are welcomed into the fold.

Some of you give up, and we breathe a sigh of relief - we didn't want
you here anyway. And some of you just never get it. The offensively
clueless have a special place in our hearts - as objects of ridicule.
We don't like you, but we do love you.

You will get mad. You will tell us to go to hell, and call us "nerds"
and "geeks". Don't bother ... we already know exactly what we are.
And, much like the way hardcore rap has co-opted the word "nigger",
turning an insult around on itself to become a semiserious badge of
honor, so have we done.

"How dare you! I used to beat the crap out of punks like you in high
school/college!" You may have owned the playing field because you were
an athlete. You may have owned the student council because you were
more popular. You may have owned the hallways and sidewalks because
you were big and intimidating. Well, welcome to our world.

Things like athleticism, popularity, and physical prowess mean nothing
here. We place no value on them ... or what car you drive, the size of
your bank account, what you do for a living or where you went to
school.

Allow us to introduce you to the concept of a "meritocracy" - the
closest thing to a form of self-government we have. In The United
Meritocratic nation-states of the Internet, those who can do, rule.
Those who wish to rule, learn. Everyone else watches from the stands.

You may posses everything in the off-line world. We don't care. You
come to the Internet penniless, lacking the only thing of real value
here: knowledge.

"Who cares? The Internet isn't real anyway!" This attitude is
universally unacceptable. The Internet is real. Real people live
behind those handles and screen names. Real machines allow it to
exist. It's real enough to change government policy, real enough to
feed the world's hungry, and even, for some of us, real enough to earn
us a paycheck. Using your own definition, how "real" is your job? Your
stock portfolio? Your political party? What is the meaning of "real",
anyway?

Do I sound arrogant? Sure ... to you. Because you probably don't get it yet.

If you insist on staying, then, at the very least, follow this advice:

1) No one, ESPECIALLY YOU, will make any law respecting an
establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of
the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a
redress of grievances.

2) Use your brain before ever putting fingers to keys.

3) Do you want a picture of you getting anally raped by Bill Clinton
while you're performing oral sex on a cow saved to hundreds of
thousands of people's hard drives? No? Then don't put your fucking
picture on the Internet. We can, will, and probably already HAVE
altered it in awful ways. Expect it to show up on an equally offensive
website.

4) Realize that you are never, EVER going to get that, or any other,
offensive web page taken down. Those of us who run those sites LIVE to
piss off people like you. Those of us who don't run those sites
sometimes visit them just to read the hatemail from fools like you.

5) Oh, you say you're going to a lawyer? Be prepared for us to giggle
with girlish delight, and for your lawyer to laugh in your face after
he explains current copyright and parody law.

6) The Web is not the Internet. Stop referring to it that way.

7) We have already received the e-mail you are about to forward to us. Shut up.

8) Don't reply to spam. You are not going to be "unsubscribed".

9) Don't ever use the term "cyberspace" (only William Gibson gets to
say that, and even he hasn't really used it for two or three books
now). Likewise, you prove yourself a marketing-hype victim if you ever
use the term "surfing".

10) With one or two notable exceptions, chat rooms will not get you laid.

11) It's a hoax, not a virus warning.

12) The internet is made up of thousands of computers, all connected
but owned by different people. Learn how to use *your* computer before
attempting to connect it to someone else's.

13) The first person who offers to help you is really just trying to
fuck with you for entertainment. So is the second. And the third. And
me.

14) Never insult someone who's been active in any group longer than
you have. You may as well paint a damn target on your back.

15) Never get comfortable and arrogant behind your supposed mask of
anonymity. Don't be surprised when your name, address, and home phone
number get thrown back in your smug face. Hell, some of us will
snail-mail you a printed satellite photograph of your house to drive
the point home. Realize that you are powerless if this happens ...
it's all public information, and information is our stock and trade.

16) No one thinks you are as cool as you think you are.

17) You aren't going to win any argument that you start.

18) If you're on AOL, don't worry about anything I've said here.
You're already a fucking laughing stock, and there's no hope for you.

19) If you can't take a joke, immediately sell your computer to
someone who can. RIGHT NOW.

Pissed off? It's the TRUTH, not these words, that hurts your feelings.
Don't ever even pretend like I've gone & hurt them.

We don't like you. We don't want you here. We never will. Save us all
the trouble and go away.

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#66196 — Welcome to the Internet. No one here likes you. (was: Newcomer Help)

On Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:32:46 AM UTC-8, Larry....@gmail.com wrote:

> This reminds me of post that was circulating in the early 90's:
> 
> Welcome to the Internet.
> 
> No one here likes you.
> 
> We're going to offend, insult, abuse, and belittle the living hell out
> of you. And when you rail against us with "FUCK YOU YOU GEEK WIMP
> SKATER GOTH LOSER PUNK FAG BITCH!1!!", we smile to ourselves. We laugh
> at you because you don't get it. Then we turn up the heat, hoping to
> draw more entertainment from your irrational fuming.
[snip]

Ummm... Larry, I hope you are just posting this rant because Rustom Mody's remarks reminded you of it.  I hope that you do not personally subscribe to this behavior.

Yes, I too was a bullied nerd when I was young.  I don't use my history as an excuse to do unto others what was done unto me.  No one should.  No one should bully another person, period.  It's not "entertainment," it's a deeply harmful practice, and does not deserve any respect.

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#66270 — Re: Welcome to the Internet. No one here likes you. (was: Newcomer Help)

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 12:49 PM, John Ladasky
<john_ladasky@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:32:46 AM UTC-8, Larry....@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> This reminds me of post that was circulating in the early 90's:
>>
>> Welcome to the Internet.
>>
>> No one here likes you.
>>
>> We're going to offend, insult, abuse, and belittle the living hell out
>> of you. And when you rail against us with "FUCK YOU YOU GEEK WIMP
>> SKATER GOTH LOSER PUNK FAG BITCH!1!!", we smile to ourselves. We laugh
>> at you because you don't get it. Then we turn up the heat, hoping to
>> draw more entertainment from your irrational fuming.
> [snip]
>
> Ummm... Larry, I hope you are just posting this rant because Rustom Mody's remarks reminded you of it.

Yes, that is why I posted it.

> I hope that you do not personally subscribe to this behavior.

No, not any more. But that rant is a somewhat tongue in cheek look
back at how things were back in the day.

> Yes, I too was a bullied nerd when I was young.  I don't use my history as an excuse to do unto others what was done unto me.  No one should.  No one should bully another person, period.  It's not "entertainment," it's a deeply harmful practice, and does not deserve any respect.

Back in the day I was both a major flamer and flamee. I did enjoy
being the flamer and I laughed at being flamed. And I don't equate
that with being bullied in any way (which I was when I was a kid). But
I am older and kinder nowadays and have better things to do with my
time.

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#66198

On 2014-02-13, Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> wrote:

> 9) Don't ever use the term "cyberspace" (only William Gibson gets to
> say that, and even he hasn't really used it for two or three books
> now). Likewise, you prove yourself a marketing-hype victim if you ever
> use the term "surfing".

 9b) And don't use any other term beginning with "cyber" either.  That
     will infallibly identify you as somebody who hasn't a clue and
     are most likely a half-witted local news reporter or government
     official.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Sometime in 1993
                                  at               NANCY SINATRA will lead a
                              gmail.com            BLOODLESS COUP on GUAM!!

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#66192 — Community standards of behaviour (was: Newcomer Help)

Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:

[…]

> > I suggest
> > 1. You focus on your goal -- learning python or whatever is the larger
> > personal goal of which learning python is a part
> > 2. A bullet-proof vest
>
> This reminds me of post that was circulating in the early 90's:
>
> Welcome to the Internet.
>
> No one here likes you.

[…]

> We don't like you. We don't want you here. We never will. Save us all
> the trouble and go away.

That may be true of some parts of the internet.

But this is the Python community discussion forum. We have a much more
pleasant code of conduct <URL:http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/>.

We require each other to be open, considerate, and respectful.

Please don't perpetuate awful behaviour (especially by the risible
euphemism “meritocracy”) here by appealing to the poor standards of
others.

-- 
 \      “If I haven't seen as far as others, it is because giants were |
  `\                           standing on my shoulders.” —Hal Abelson |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#66295

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 11:32 AM, Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> wrote:

> 18) If you're on AOL, don't worry about anything I've said here.
> You're already a fucking laughing stock, and there's no hope for you.
 Ah, the email bigots. That's why I keep an AOL address around for
occasional use against these jerks.

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