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generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug)

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  generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-03 05:59 -0800
    Re: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug) Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-02-03 09:50 -0700
    Re: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug) Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-03 17:42 +0000
      Re: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-03 10:37 -0800
        Re: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 05:46 +1100
        Re: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug) Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-03 18:55 +0000
          Re: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-03 11:31 -0800
          [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug)) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-04 09:56 +1100
            Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug)) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-03 22:51 -0800
              Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug)) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 17:58 +1100
              Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug)) Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 09:39 -0500
                Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug)) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-04 07:21 -0800
                  Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 08:31 -0700
                    Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 10:24 -0800
                  Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-05 03:18 +1100
                  Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-04 13:20 -0500
                  Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2014-02-04 19:40 +0100
                  Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug)) andrea crotti <andrea.crotti.0@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 19:19 +0000
                  Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-02-04 18:00 -0500
                  Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-02-04 18:18 -0500
                    Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-05 06:41 -0800
                      Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-05 10:23 -0500
                        Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-05 10:58 -0800
                      Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-05 15:45 +0000
                  Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-02-04 18:24 -0500
                  Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-02-04 18:28 -0500
                  Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-05 10:35 +1100
                  Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug)) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-06 04:23 -0800
                    Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug)) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-06 05:27 -0800
                    Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug)) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-07 04:23 +1100
                    Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2014-02-06 19:29 +0000
                      Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-06 19:05 -0800
    Re: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug) andrea crotti <andrea.crotti.0@gmail.com> - 2014-02-03 17:45 +0000

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#65335 — generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug)

generator slides review and Python doc


I do not know what tool is used to produce such
slides.

When the mouse is over a a text like a title (<H*> ... <\H*> ???)
the text get transformed and a colored eol is appearing.

Example with the slide #3:

Even numbers
becomes
Even numbers§

with a visible colored "§", 'SECTION SIGN'


I noticed the same effect with the Python doc
since ? (long time).

Eg. 

The Python Tutorial
appears as 
The Python Tutorial¶

with a visible colored "¶", 'PILCROW SIGN',
blueish in Python 3, red in Python 2.7.6.


And in plenty third party Python docs using
probaly the same tool as the official Python
doc.
The eol glyph may vary and may not be a "§" or a "¶".

Windows, Firefox and others.

The .chm files do not seem to be affected.

jmf

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#65344

On 02/03/2014 06:59 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
> generator slides review and Python doc
> 
> 
> I do not know what tool is used to produce such
> slides.

What slides?  What web site are you referring to?  A little context
wouldn't hurt.

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#65349

On 03/02/2014 13:59, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
> [...]
>
> I noticed the same effect with the Python doc
> since ? (long time).
>
> Eg.
>
> The Python Tutorial
> appears as
> The Python Tutorial¶
>
> with a visible colored "¶", 'PILCROW SIGN',
> blueish in Python 3, red in Python 2.7.6.

Hint: try clicking the ¶.

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#65359

Le lundi 3 février 2014 18:42:36 UTC+1, Rotwang a écrit :
> On 03/02/2014 13:59, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > [...]
> 
> >
> 
> > I noticed the same effect with the Python doc
> 
> > since ? (long time).
> 
> >
> 
> > Eg.
> 
> >
> 
> > The Python Tutorial
> 
> > appears as
> 
> > The Python Tutorial¶
> 
> >
> 
> > with a visible colored "¶", 'PILCROW SIGN',
> 
> > blueish in Python 3, red in Python 2.7.6
> 
> 
> 
> Hint: try clicking the ¶.

I never was aware of this "feature". Is it deliverate?

It gives to me the feeling of a badly programmed
html page, especially if this sign does correspond
to an eol!

jmf

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#65360

On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 5:37 AM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
> Le lundi 3 février 2014 18:42:36 UTC+1, Rotwang a écrit :
>> On 03/02/2014 13:59, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>> Hint: try clicking the ¶.
>
> I never was aware of this "feature". Is it deliverate?
>
> It gives to me the feeling of a badly programmed
> html page, especially if this sign does correspond
> to an eol!

Very deliberate, and very useful. I don't know why that sign should
correspond to a line end; I grew up with it representing "paragraph",
which is close to what it means here. (Well, that and "Ctrl-T", since
it was character 20 on those old systems.) Yes, it does sometimes get
a little distracting as the mouse moves over and away, but it would be
more confusing to have it always shown, and I don't know of any better
way to do it.

ChrisA

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#65361

On 03/02/2014 18:37, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> Hint: try clicking the ¶.
>
> I never was aware of this "feature". Is it deliverate?

Do you mean deliberate? Of course it is.


> It gives to me the feeling of a badly programmed
> html page, especially if this sign does correspond
> to an eol!

Why on Earth would the sign correspond to an EOL? The section sign and 
pilcrow have a history of being used to refer to sections and paragraphs 
respectively, so using them for permalinks to individual sections of a 
web page makes perfect sense.

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#65369

Le lundi 3 février 2014 19:55:26 UTC+1, Rotwang a écrit :
> On 03/02/2014 18:37, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> >> [...]
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Hint: try clicking the ¶.
> 
> >
> 
> > I never was aware of this "feature". Is it deliverate?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean deliberate? Of course it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > It gives to me the feeling of a badly programmed
> 
> > html page, especially if this sign does correspond
> 
> > to an eol!
> 
> 
> 
> Why on Earth would the sign correspond to an EOL? The section sign and 
> 
> pilcrow have a history of being used to refer to sections and paragraphs 
> 
> respectively, so using them for permalinks to individual sections of a 
> 
> web page makes perfect sense.


Sorry. I should have written "end of paragraph or section".

Having said this, that's because these signs are usually
used to signal an "end of ...', that I find these signs
as link not really meaningful.


jmf

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#65385 — [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug))

Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> writes:

> Why on Earth would the [“¶”, U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN] correspond to an
> EOL? The section sign and pilcrow have a history of being used to
> refer to sections and paragraphs respectively, so using them for
> permalinks to individual sections of a web page makes perfect sense.

Symbols commonly have multiple meanings, derived from usage.

<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilcrow#Contemporary_use>

-- 
 \      “Progress might have been all right once, but it's gone on too |
  `\                                                long.” —Ogden Nash |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#65407 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug))

Le lundi 3 février 2014 23:56:43 UTC+1, Ben Finney a écrit :
> Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > Why on Earth would the ["¶", U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN] correspond to an
> 
> > EOL? The section sign and pilcrow have a history of being used to
> 
> > refer to sections and paragraphs respectively, so using them for
> 
> > permalinks to individual sections of a web page makes perfect sense.
> 
> 
> 
> Symbols commonly have multiple meanings, derived from usage.
> 
> 
> 
> <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilcrow#Contemporary_use>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
>  \      "Progress might have been all right once, but it's gone on too |
> 
>   `\                                                long." --Ogden Nash |
> 
> _o__)                                                                  |
> 
> Ben Finney

I got it. If I'm visiting a page like this:

http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html#the-python-tutorial

1) To read the page, I'm scrolling down.
2) When I have finished to read the page, I scroll up
(or scroll back/up) to the top of the page until I see
this "feature" and the title.
3) I click on this "feature".
4) The title, already visible, moves, let's say, "2cm" higher.

...?


Having a pilcrow to signal or to display an end of paragraph is
one thing. Using a pilcrow as a link seems to me very strange.
Especially if the target of that link has nothing to with
paragraph, but with "section"!

jmf

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#65408 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug))

On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 5:51 PM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2) When I have finished to read the page, I scroll up
> (or scroll back/up) to the top of the page until I see
> this "feature" and the title.
> 3) I click on this "feature".
> 4) The title, already visible, moves, let's say, "2cm" higher.

At which point your URL bar shows a hash link to this exact section,
which you can then copy and paste into an email, for instance. That's
what it's good for.

ChrisA

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#65427 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug))

On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 1:51 AM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
> I got it. If I'm visiting a page like this:
>
> http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html#the-python-tutorial
>
> 1) To read the page, I'm scrolling down.
> 2) When I have finished to read the page, I scroll up
> (or scroll back/up) to the top of the page until I see
> this "feature" and the title.
> 3) I click on this "feature".
> 4) The title, already visible, moves, let's say, "2cm" higher.
>
> ...?

Those links aren't for navigation.

They're so you can discover anchor links in the page and pass them to
someone else.  For instance, if I want to point someone to the section
of the tutorial that talks about reading and writing files, I could
just give them this link:
http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/inputoutput.html#reading-and-writing-files,
instead of pointing them to the main page and instructing them to
scroll down until they see Section 7.2

I was able to discover that link by opening the page, highlighting the
section header with my mouse, then clicking the pilcrow.  That gives
me the anchor link to that section header.

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#65429 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug))

Le mardi 4 février 2014 15:39:54 UTC+1, Jerry Hill a écrit :
> On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 1:51 AM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I got it. If I'm visiting a page like this:
> 
> >
> 
> > http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/index.html#the-python-tutorial
> 
> >
> 
> > 1) To read the page, I'm scrolling down.
> 
> > 2) When I have finished to read the page, I scroll up
> 
> > (or scroll back/up) to the top of the page until I see
> 
> > this "feature" and the title.
> 
> > 3) I click on this "feature".
> 
> > 4) The title, already visible, moves, let's say, "2cm" higher.
> 
> >
> 
> > ...?
> 
> 
> 
> Those links aren't for navigation.
> 
> 
> 
> They're so you can discover anchor links in the page and pass them to
> 
> someone else.  For instance, if I want to point someone to the section
> 
> of the tutorial that talks about reading and writing files, I could
> 
> just give them this link:
> 
> http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/inputoutput.html#reading-and-writing-files,
> 
> instead of pointing them to the main page and instructing them to
> 
> scroll down until they see Section 7.2
> 
> 
> 
> I was able to discover that link by opening the page, highlighting the
> 
> section header with my mouse, then clicking the pilcrow.  That gives
> 
> me the anchor link to that section header.

Useless and really ugly.

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#65430 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN

On 02/04/2014 08:21 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Useless and really ugly.

How do you recommend we discover the anchor links for linking to?

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#65442 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN

In article <mailman.6391.1391527903.18130.python-list@python.org>,
Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 02/04/2014 08:21 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > Useless and really ugly.
> 
> How do you recommend we discover the anchor links for linking to?

Use the Table Of Contents panel on the left?

-- 
Jim Gibson

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#65435 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN

On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 2:31 AM, Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 02/04/2014 08:21 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Useless and really ugly.
>
> How do you recommend we discover the anchor links for linking to?

Same way you usually do! By right clicking, hitting "View Source", and
poking around until you find the right place!

I've done exactly that with innumerable web sites. It's a massive
luxury to have them explicitly published like that; as well as the
convenience, it gives an impression (whether that's true or false)
that the hash links are deemed important and will therefore be
maintained in the future (unlike, say, a system that has
"http://..../....#s4" for the fourth (or fifth) section - inserting a
section above this one will break my link)

ChrisA
.

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#65441 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN

On 2/4/14 10:21 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>> >
>> >I was able to discover that link by opening the page, highlighting the
>> >section header with my mouse, then clicking the pilcrow.  That gives
>> >me the anchor link to that section header.
 >
> Useless and really ugly.

I'm not sure why you would describe it as useless?  It's incredibly 
useful to have a way to link to a particular section.

And ugly? It's a UI that is invisible and unobtrusive, but then elegant 
once you hover over the element you are interested in.

I guess tastes differ...  Lots of sites use this technique, it is not 
particular to the Python docs.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com

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#65443 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN

Michael Torrie wrote:

> On 02/04/2014 08:21 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> Useless and really ugly.
> 
> How do you recommend we discover the anchor links for linking to?

Why not the whole header? Click anywhere on 

7.2.1. Regular Expression Syntax

instead of the tiny ¶ symbol beside it.

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#65445 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN (was: generator slides review and Python doc (+/- text bug))

2014-02-04  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com>:
> Le mardi 4 février 2014 15:39:54 UTC+1, Jerry Hill a écrit :

>
> Useless and really ugly.
>

I think this whole discussion is rather useless instead, why do you
care since you're not going to use this tool anyway?

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#65456 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN

On 2/4/2014 1:20 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 2/4/14 10:21 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>>> >
>>> >I was able to discover that link by opening the page, highlighting the
>>> >section header with my mouse, then clicking the pilcrow.  That gives
>>> >me the anchor link to that section header.
>  >
>> Useless and really ugly.
>
> I'm not sure why you would describe it as useless?

Because, as we should all know by now, when Jim says 'useless', he means 
'useless to me, according to my unusual notions of personal usefulness'. 
He, apparently, does not intend to ever use the pilcrow to get a section 
link, nor does he care about being able to click on such links presented 
by others.

> It's incredibly useful to have a way to link to a particular section.

For many people, but not for Jim. Either he does not care about 
usefulness to others, or he is completely oblivious to how idiosyncratic 
his personal idea of usefulness is. In either case, it is useless to 
argue against his personal opinion. He should, however, add 'to me' 
since most people take 'useless' in the collective sense.

> And ugly? It's a UI that is invisible and unobtrusive, but then elegant
> once you hover over the element you are interested in.

Having it pop up and disappear when one does not want it and will not 
use it is not pretty. When scrolling with a mouse wheel, that does happen.

> I guess tastes differ...  Lots of sites use this technique, it is not
> particular to the Python docs.

Irrelevant to Jim.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#65457 — Re: [OT] Usage of U+00B6 PILCROW SIGN

On 2/4/2014 10:21 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:

>> I was able to discover that link by opening the page, highlighting the
>> section header with my mouse, then clicking the pilcrow.  That gives
>> me the anchor link to that section header.
>
> Useless and really ugly.

Jim, when you say 'useless', please qualify as 'useless to me'. 
Otherwise, people may think that you mean 'useless to eveyone', and it 
is disrespectful to mislead people that way. I hope you are aware that 
your personal ideas of usefulness to yourself are quite different from 
other peoples' ideas of usefulness to themselves.

I now understand that you consider the FSR useless *to you* because you 
do not care about the bugginess of narrow builds or about the spacious 
of wide builds. You do care about uniformity of character size across 
all strings, and FSR lacks that. You are entitled to make that judgment 
for yourself. You are not entitled to sabotage others by projecting you 
personal judgments onto others. The FSR and pilcrow are definitely 
useful to other people as they judge personal usefulness for themselves.

PS. I agree that the pilcrow appearing and disappearing is not pretty 
when I am not looking to use it. I happen to think that is it tolerable 
because it is sometimes useful.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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