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Groups > comp.lang.python > #20242 > unrolled thread

Re: Python usage numbers

Started byChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
First post2012-02-12 12:28 +1100
Last post2012-02-15 11:56 +0200
Articles 20 on this page of 109 — 31 participants

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  Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 12:28 +1100
    Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 02:23 +0000
      Re: Python usage numbers Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-11 18:36 -0800
        Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 15:38 +1100
          Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 05:51 +0000
            Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 17:08 +1100
            Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 10:48 -0500
              Re: Python usage numbers Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-02-12 11:47 -0500
                Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 12:11 -0500
                  Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 22:49 +0000
            Re: Python usage numbers Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2012-02-12 15:55 +0000
            Re: Python usage numbers rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 08:50 -0800
              Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 12:21 -0500
              Re: Python usage numbers Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> - 2012-02-12 12:36 -0500
                entering unicode  (was Python usage numbers) rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 19:09 -0800
                  Re: entering unicode  (was Python usage numbers) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-19 03:44 +0000
                    Re: entering unicode (was Python usage numbers) rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-02-19 00:52 -0800
              How do you Unicode proponents type your non-ASCII characters? (was: Python usage numbers) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-02-13 09:43 +1100
              Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 22:56 +0000
          Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 10:13 -0500
            Re: Python usage numbers Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-02-12 17:07 -0500
              Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 17:22 -0500
            Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 09:14 +1100
              Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 17:27 -0500
                Re: Python usage numbers Dave Angel <davea@dejaviewphoto.com> - 2012-02-12 17:40 -0500
                Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 23:29 +0000
                  Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 18:41 -0500
                  Re: Python usage numbers Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-02-12 19:03 -0500
                  Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 11:59 +1100
                    Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 20:11 -0500
            Re: Python usage numbers Christian Heimes <lists@cheimes.de> - 2012-02-13 01:00 +0100
            Re: Python usage numbers Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-02-12 21:37 -0500
            Re: Python usage numbers Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-02-12 22:09 -0500
              Re: Python usage numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-02-12 22:57 -0500
                Re: Python usage numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-02-13 15:19 +1100
                  Re: Python usage numbers Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 12:26 -0600
              Re: Python usage numbers jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 00:00 -0800
        Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 06:10 +0000
          Re: Python usage numbers Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 01:05 -0600
            Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 09:12 +0000
              Re: Python usage numbers Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 05:11 -0600
                Re: Python usage numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-12 22:30 +0000
                  Re: Python usage numbers Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-02-12 17:50 -0500
              Re: Python usage numbers Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2012-02-12 17:58 +0000
          Re: Python usage numbers Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 20:48 -0800
            Re: Python usage numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 16:03 +1100
            OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-13 08:05 +0000
              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 08:01 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-13 16:12 +0000
                  Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 08:27 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 11:38 -0700
                  Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 13:01 -0800
                    Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 08:27 +1100
                    Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-13 21:46 +0000
                    Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-14 00:19 +0000
                      Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 17:07 -0800
                    Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 18:29 -0700
                      Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 17:13 -0800
                        Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 13:13 +1100
                        Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-18 02:39 +0000
                        Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 00:28 -0700
                          Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 07:02 -0800
                            Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-18 16:15 +0000
                              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 10:34 -0800
                                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] random joe <pywin32@gmail.com> - 2012-02-18 10:49 -0800
                            Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-02-26 12:14 +0000
                        Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-02-18 04:16 -0500
                    Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] John O'Hagan <research@johnohagan.com> - 2012-02-14 19:41 +1100
                      Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 16:21 -0800
                        Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 11:44 +1100
                          Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 17:26 -0800
                            Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] John O'Hagan <research@johnohagan.com> - 2012-02-15 19:56 +1100
                              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 07:04 -0800
                                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-15 15:18 +0000
                                  Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 08:27 -0800
                                    Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-15 17:16 +0000
                                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 09:46 -0700
                            Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-02-26 12:44 +0000
                              Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-26 12:35 -0800
                                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-27 07:50 +1100
                                  Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-26 14:32 -0800
                              Re: OT: Entitlements Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-02-27 07:46 +1100
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 07:47 +1100
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 14:46 -0700
                  Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 16:39 -0800
                    Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-02-13 18:36 -0700
                    Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 12:37 +1100
                      Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-17 17:37 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Tim Wintle <tim.wintle@teamrubber.com> - 2012-02-13 16:41 +0000
                  Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 16:40 -0800
                    RE: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-02-17 20:09 +0000
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-14 11:31 +0000
                  Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 07:06 -0500
                  Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 16:48 -0800
                    Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 12:32 +1100
                    Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-15 09:47 +0000
                      Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2012-02-15 09:58 +0000
                        Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2012-02-15 10:04 +0000
                          Kill files [was Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-02-15 10:27 +0000
                            Re: Kill files [was Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-02-15 11:29 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-02-14 04:56 -0800
                Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-02-14 09:37 -0500
      Re: Python usage numbers Matej Cepl <mcepl@redhat.com> - 2012-02-12 09:14 +0100
        Re: Python usage numbers Matej Cepl <mcepl@redhat.com> - 2012-02-12 09:26 +0100
          Re: Python usage numbers Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-02-12 12:11 +0000
            Re: Python usage numbers alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2012-02-12 18:55 +0000
              Re: Python usage numbers jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2012-02-12 11:52 -0800
                French and IDLE on Windows  (was Re: Python usage numbers) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-02-12 18:30 -0500
          Re: Python usage numbers Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2012-02-15 11:56 +0200

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#20263

FromAndrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-12 05:11 -0600
Message-ID<mailman.5721.1329045101.27778.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#20259
On 2/12/2012 3:12 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> NTFS by default uses the UTF-16 encoding, which means the actual bytes 
> written to disk are \x1d\x040\x04\xe5\x042\x04 (possibly with a leading 
> byte-order mark \xff\xfe).
That's what I meant. Those bytes will be interpreted consistently across
all locales.

> Windows has two separate APIs, one for "wide" characters, the other for 
> single bytes. Depending on which one you use, the directory will appear 
> to be called Наӥв or 0å2.
Yes, and AFAIK, the wide API is the default. The other one only exists
to support programs that don't support the wide API (generally, such
programs were intended to be used on older platforms that lack that API).

> But in any case, we're not talking about the file name encoding. We're 
> talking about the contents of files.
Okay then. As I stated, this has nothing to do with the OS since
programs are free to interpret bytes any way they like.

-- 
CPython 3.2.2 | Windows NT 6.1.7601.17640

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#20300

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date2012-02-12 22:30 +0000
Message-ID<4f383d87$0$29986$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#20263
On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:11:30 -0600, Andrew Berg wrote:

> On 2/12/2012 3:12 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> NTFS by default uses the UTF-16 encoding, which means the actual bytes
>> written to disk are \x1d\x040\x04\xe5\x042\x04 (possibly with a leading
>> byte-order mark \xff\xfe).
>
> That's what I meant. Those bytes will be interpreted consistently across
> all locales.

Right. But, that's not Unicode, it is an encoding of Unicode. Terminology 
is important -- if we don't call things by the "right" names (or at least 
agreed upon names) how can we communicate?


>> Windows has two separate APIs, one for "wide" characters, the other for
>> single bytes. Depending on which one you use, the directory will appear
>> to be called Наӥв or 0å2.
>
> Yes, and AFAIK, the wide API is the default. The other one only exists
> to support programs that don't support the wide API (generally, such
> programs were intended to be used on older platforms that lack that
> API).

I'm not sure that "default" is the right word, since (as far as I know) 
both APIs have different spelling and the coder has to make the choice 
whether to call function X or function Y. Perhaps you mean that Microsoft 
encourages the wide API and makes the single-byte API available for 
legacy reasons?


>> But in any case, we're not talking about the file name encoding. We're
>> talking about the contents of files.
>
> Okay then. As I stated, this has nothing to do with the OS since
> programs are free to interpret bytes any way they like.

Yes, but my point was that even if the developer thinks he can avoid the 
problem by staying away from "Unicode files" coming from Linux and OS-X, 
he can't avoid dealing with multiple code pages on Windows.

You are absolutely correct that this is *not* a cross-platform issue to 
do with the OS, but some people may think it is.


-- 
Steven

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#20305

FromDave Angel <d@davea.name>
Date2012-02-12 17:50 -0500
Message-ID<mailman.5741.1329087043.27778.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#20300
On 02/12/2012 05:30 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 05:11:30 -0600, Andrew Berg wrote:
>
>> On 2/12/2012 3:12 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> <snip>
>>> Windows has two separate APIs, one for "wide" characters, the other for
>>> single bytes. Depending on which one you use, the directory will appear
>>> to be called Наӥв or 0å2.
>> Yes, and AFAIK, the wide API is the default. The other one only exists
>> to support programs that don't support the wide API (generally, such
>> programs were intended to be used on older platforms that lack that
>> API).
> I'm not sure that "default" is the right word, since (as far as I know)
> both APIs have different spelling and the coder has to make the choice
> whether to call function X or function Y. Perhaps you mean that Microsoft
> encourages the wide API and makes the single-byte API available for
> legacy reasons?
>
>

When I last looked, the pair of functions were equivalently available, 
and neither one was named the way you'd expect.  One had a suffix of A 
and the other had a suffix of W (guess which was which).  C header 
definitions used #define to define the actual functions, and the 
preprocessor effectively stuck A's on all of them or W's on all of 
them.  Very bulky, but buried in some MS header files.

Other languages were free to use either or both.  VB used just the W 
versions, as I presume java does.

But the interesting point was that for most of these functions, the A 
versions were native on Win95-derived OS'es, while the W versions were 
native on NT-derived OS's.  There were translation DLL's which supplied 
the secondary versions.  So in the old days it was more efficient to use 
the A versions.  No longer true, since as far as I know, nobody that 
still uses Win ME, Win98, or Win95 is targeted for much new programming.



-- 

DaveA

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#20285

FromPeter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid>
Date2012-02-12 17:58 +0000
Message-ID<9pqculF83rU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to#20259
On 12 Feb 2012 09:12:57 GMT, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> Suppose you're a fan of Russian punk bank Наӥв and you have a directory 
> of their music.

Sigh.  Banking ain't what it used to be.  I'm sticking with
classical Muzak.

-- 
To email me, substitute nowhere->spamcop, invalid->net.

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#20331

FromRick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-12 20:48 -0800
Message-ID<1c0e800d-1196-4fcd-9eaf-4fd1788f7f74@q12g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#20252
On Feb 12, 12:10 am, Steven D'Aprano <steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 18:36:52 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote:
> >> "I have a file containing text. I can open it in an editor and see it's
> >> nearly all ASCII text, except for a few weird and bizarre characters
> >> like £ © ± or ö. In Python 2, I can read that file fine. In Python 3 I
> >> get an error. What should I do that requires no thought?"
>
> >> Obvious answers:
>
> > the most obvious answer would be to read the file WITHOUT worrying about
> > asinine encoding.
>
> Your mad leet reading comprehension skillz leave me in awe Rick.

Same goes for your abstract reasoning skillz! You're attempting to
treat the problem, whilst ignoring the elephant in the room --  THE
DISEASE!.

Do you think that cost of healthcare is the problem? Do you think the
cost of healthcare insurance is the problem? NO! The problem is people
expect entitlements. If you can't afford healthcare, then you die. If
you can't afford food, then you starve. If you can't afford
prophylactics, then you will be sentenced to eighteen years of hell!
Maybe a charity will help you, or maybe a friend, or maybe a neighbor.
If not, then you suffer the fatal exception. Life sucks, deal with it!
You want to solve the healthcare problem then STOP TREATING PEOPLE WHO
DON'T HAVE INSURANCE! Problem solved! You are only born with one
guarantee; you will die, guaranteed! Any questions?

The problem with bytes is not encodings or OS's. Can you guess what
the REAL problem is? ..take all the time you need.

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#20332

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-13 16:03 +1100
Message-ID<mailman.5753.1329109428.27778.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#20331
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:48 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem with bytes is not encodings or OS's. Can you guess what
> the REAL problem is? ..take all the time you need.

The REAL problem is trolls.

But they're such fun, and so cute when they get ranting...

ChrisA

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#20337 — OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date2012-02-13 08:05 +0000
SubjectOT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<4f38c44d$0$11112$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#20331
On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 20:48:54 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote:

> Do you think that cost of healthcare is the problem? Do you think the
> cost of healthcare insurance is the problem? NO! The problem is people
> expect entitlements.

Entitlements? I work hard and pay my taxes. I *earned* that healthcare 
that trolls like you call an entitlement. Damn straight it's an 
entitlement -- I paid for it, I earned it, I'm entitled to it, and if you 
try to steal if from me, expect a fight.

Socialised healthcare is a win-win system:

- the working class wins, because they get healthcare at a much cheaper 
rate than they could otherwise afford

- bosses win, because they have reduced absenteeism, lower training costs 
to replace workers who die, and fewer epidemics that threaten their own 
families

- Wall Street wins, because productivity is increased due to better health

- pharmaceutical companies win, because even though their profits on 
individual items are reduced, their increased sales more than make up for 
it

- doctors win, because they spend more time getting paid to deal with 
patients and less unproductive time on dealing with insurance companies

- the economy wins, because fewer people are bankrupted by simple medical 
procedures

The only loss is for the insurers, who have to get an honest job. So why 
on earth is anyone against socialised healthcare when it provably works 
better than the US system?

Simple. To a certain mind, "win-win" is not a good thing, it is a bad 
thing. "Win-win" implies that you might have to share the pie instead of 
eating it all yourself, and to that sort of person, anything less than 
ALL the pie might as well be nothing at all. What's the point of being 
wealthy and powerful without having hungry, sick peons to lord over? How 
will you know you have won unless others lose?

The inefficiencies (economic and moral) of the US private healthcare 
system are not a bug, they are a feature. It is part of the war the 1% of 
the 1% have been waging on the rest of society for the last 40 years.


> You are only born with one
> guarantee; you will die, guaranteed! Any questions?

Yes. Why haven't you moved to a libertarian paradise like Somalia yet? 
You'd like it there. There are two sorts of people: those who can afford 
their own private militia, and victims.


-- 
Steven

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#20347 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromRick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-13 08:01 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<a6d617ab-4d91-472b-bf57-9034874321af@n12g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#20337
On Feb 13, 2:05 am, Steven D'Aprano <steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 20:48:54 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote:
> > Do you think that cost of healthcare is the problem? Do you think the
> > cost of healthcare insurance is the problem? NO! The problem is people
> > expect entitlements.
>
> Entitlements? I work hard and pay my taxes. I *earned* that healthcare
> that [gentlemen] like you call an entitlement. Damn straight it's an
> entitlement -- I paid for it, I earned it, I'm entitled to it,

And just how much healthcare dollars are you entitled to exactly? Can
you put your entitlement into some form of monetary value?

And how can we ever make a system like this fair? If someone works for
30 years and pays a 30% tax rate and another works for 2 years and
pays 15%, then how do we delegate the fair share? The answer is you
can't delegate fairness in a system like this. The system of "i pay
taxes therfore i deserve a free heart transplant" is broken!

And don't forget, your tax dollars are not just for coving the cost of
healthcare. What about infrastructure, social security, welfare,
military, government bail-outs, bribe money to rouge states, earmarks,
bridges to nowhere, and and even planting trees on the main highways?
These things cost money you know!

How about instead of enriching the government by increasing taxes YOU
just live within your means? If you can afford healthcare, great! If
not, too bad.

>  and if you
> try to steal if from me, expect a fight.

Steal what from you... you're stealing from everyone else! You're
expecting ME to cover YOUR healthcare. What's next? I should
supplement your income so you can you buy a summer home?

What about folks who gorge on sugar, saturated fats, and salt all
their lives with no regard for their own health? What happens when
they develop diabetes, heart disease, and cancer? Do you think the
measly little amount of taxes they payed (IF THEY PAYED AT ALL!) will
cover a heart transplant or cancer treatments? Who will pay when they
cannot?

What about the idiots who smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, and/or
abuse drugs (prescription or otherwise). Should your tax dollars cover
these medical expenses? Who will pay when they cannot?

What about people who are too lazy to cook their children healthy
meals and instead rely on fast food and soda? What happens when those
same kids become morbidly obese? Why are we not charging these idiots
with child abuse? Who will pay when they cannot?

*Selfish Sam blubbers:* "I pay taxes, so the government needs to
subsidize my unhealthy lifestyle!"

But where does the "government money" come from Sam?
Sam: Taxes?
Very good Sam, and WHO pays taxes?
Sam: Citizens?
You're very smart Sam. And what do think will happen when the
government needs more money?
Sam: They will increase taxes?
Good boy Sam! Here is a treat. Now run along and fetch the newspaper.

Taxes are tranny. And you WANT to give them an excuse to increase
taxes! We are doomed!

> Socialised healthcare is a win-win system:

Sure, for the degenerates!

> - the working class wins, because they get healthcare at a much cheaper
> rate than they could otherwise afford

Healthcare is expensive. Do you want a minimum wage doctor curing your
ills? And the frivolous lawsuits are not bringing the costs down
either.

> - bosses win, because they have reduced absenteeism, lower training costs
> to replace workers who die, and fewer epidemics that threaten their own
> families

BS! With free healthcare, those who would have allowed their immune
system fight off the flu, now take off from work, visit a local
clinic, and get pumped full of antibiotics so they can create a new
strain of antibiotic resistant flu virus! Thanks free healthcare!

> - Wall Street wins, because productivity is increased due to better health

Oh yes, and wall street is the hope of the future. Thank god they are
winning. Thank god they are healthy enough to rob us for another day.
Thank god!

> - pharmaceutical companies win, because even though their profits on
> individual items are reduced, their increased sales more than make up for
> it

This is the same thing that happened to the funiture industry. They
call it the "Assembly Line". I don't know how you feel, but i think
mass produced furniture sucks a big fat Python!

> - doctors win, because they spend more time getting paid to deal with
> patients and less unproductive time on dealing with insurance companies

Doctors have minions for those tasks. Do you actually believe doctors
are on the phone with insurance companies? They are at the freaking
golf course!

> - the economy wins, because fewer people are bankrupted by simple medical
> procedures

It sucks that medical can be so expensive, and i am all for reducing
the costs. However, we cannot implement a system that rewards the
slothful degenerates of society on the backs of the hard working.
Evolution knows how to handle degenerates.

> The only loss is for the insurers, who have to get an honest job. So why
> on earth is anyone against socialised healthcare when it provably works
> better than the US system?

If you look around the world, you will see that socialized heathcare
has been around for a long time. Let me know when it "solves the
healthcare problem"... psst, i won't be holding my breath!

> Simple. To a certain mind, "win-win" is not a good thing, it is a bad
> thing. "Win-win" implies that you might have to share the pie instead of
> eating it all yourself, and to that sort of person, anything less than
> ALL the pie might as well be nothing at all.

That's the chant of the folks who have no capacity to think for
themselves. It's also used by the "controllers" to incite the foolish
masses through emotional rhetoric. The fact is, socialized medicine is
SOMEONE ELSE paying for YOUR healthcare. Socialized medicine is YOU
leaching off the backs of others. Here's a novel idea, subsidize your
own damn healthcare!

You are born with rights. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Healthcare care is NOT a right, healthcare is a privileged. Driving a
car is not a right, it is a privileged. Procreation should be a
privilege, however sadly for our collective evolution, it's seems to
be a right :(

> The inefficiencies (economic and moral) of the US private healthcare
> system are not a bug, they are a feature. It is part of the war the 1% of
> the 1% have been waging on the rest of society for the last 40 years.

What is the goal of the war? Do you really think the one percent want
to destroy the working class? If they did manage to destroy us, then
who would clean their house, take out there garbage, work in the
factories and sweat shops, shine their shoes, wash their cars, wipe
their @$$? Who would create that next new cool IPhone app?

Look, i hate super rich, arrogant people just as much i hate selfish
people. I think you need to take a step back from your emotional
temper tantrum and smell the $hit your shoveling! It is my god given
right to live free of tyranny, not be enslaved by taxes so i can
subsidize you lifespan. Not so you can live to be 104 whilst trying to
suck every last breath out of an oxygen canister. No, you live and die
by your own choices and the cards that were dealt to you. Leave me the
freak out of your selfish card game!

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#20348 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date2012-02-13 16:12 +0000
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<4f393666$0$29986$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#20347
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:01:59 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote:

> Evolution knows how to handle degenerates.

And yet here you still are.


-- 
Steven

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#20349 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromRick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-13 08:27 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<07200b63-08a7-4ed4-ac77-0b0f04ee2186@i18g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#20348
On Feb 13, 10:12 am, Steven D'Aprano <steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 08:01:59 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote:
> > Evolution knows how to handle degenerates.
>
> And yet here you still are.

Embrace the perfection of evolution, and both our needs shall be met!

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#20358 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromIan Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-13 11:38 -0700
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<mailman.5770.1329158358.27778.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#20347
I hate being suckered in by trolls, but this paragraph demands a response.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are born with rights. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
> Healthcare care is NOT a right, healthcare is a privileged.

If you deprive a person of access to healthcare, and they die, then
you have deprived them of life and thus violated the very rights that
you just stated they had.

In any case, taking that phrase from the Declaration of Independence
and holding it out as an exhaustive list of rights is moronic.  First,
because it's not even a legal document -- it's only a statement of
high-minded classical liberalism, albeit a historically important and
influential one.  Second, because it actually states "We hold these
truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they
are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that
**AMONG** these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."  The
phrasing obviously implies that there are other human rights besides
the three examples listed.  After all, the purpose of the document was
not to enumerate all human rights, but to air a list of grievances
against King George and assert the right to revolt against him.

Incidentally, "not being required to pay taxes" is not something that
the founding fathers would have considered a human right, taxation
being necessary to support government and representative government
(at least according to the Declaration of Independence) being
necessary to secure those rights.

> Procreation should be a
> privilege, however sadly for our collective evolution, it's seems to
> be a right :(

There is a word for the philosophy that procreation should be a
privilege reserved for those with good genes: eugenics.  Welcome to
fascism, Rick.

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#20368 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromRick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-13 13:01 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<39962880-2073-4ed3-83b2-83fa86409b53@i18g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#20358
On Feb 13, 12:38 pm, Ian Kelly <ian.g.ke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I hate being suckered in by trolls, but this paragraph demands a response.
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Rick Johnson
>
> <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You are born with rights. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
> > Healthcare care is NOT a right, healthcare is a privileged.
>
> If you deprive a person of access to healthcare, and they die, then
> you have deprived them of life and thus violated the very rights that
> you just stated they had. And finally the "pursuit of happiness". Notice the wording here: "pursuit". You have a right to PURSUE happiness, not a right to steal it. Also, you are guaranteed happiness, only the right to purse your version of happiness -- so long as that version does not interfere with others rights.

You have a right to life, NOT a right to unnaturally extend your
lifetime by stealing the fruits of other people's labor (in this case:
money). You have a right to be free, but NOT to quell the freedom of
others so that YOU may benefit (in this case: taxation).

Healthy people do not need healthcare very often, and in the rare
cases when they do, they don't bog down the system because their
bodies are strong. Why are their bodies strong? Because healthy people
eat correctly, healthy people exercise, therefore, healthy people have
correctly functioning immune systems -- of course quality genes always
help!

> In any case, taking that phrase from the Declaration of Independence
> and holding it out as an exhaustive list of rights is moronic.  First,
> because it's not even a legal document -- it's only a statement of
> high-minded classical liberalism, albeit a historically important and
> influential one.  Second, because it actually states "We hold these
> truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they
> are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that
> **AMONG** these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."  The
> phrasing obviously implies that there are other human rights besides
> the three examples listed.  After all, the purpose of the document was
> not to enumerate all human rights, but to air a list of grievances
> against King George and assert the right to revolt against him.



> Incidentally, "not being required to pay taxes" is not something that
> the founding fathers would have considered a human right, taxation
> being necessary to support government and representative government
> (at least according to the Declaration of Independence) being
> necessary to secure those rights.

I never stated that taxation violated anyone's "human rights". And i
personally believe that "some" amount of taxation is a necessary in a
democratic society. How else would the government pay the bills? Rule
of law, infrastructure, national security (just to name a few) are all
subjects that the government must handle for the sake of society as a
whole.

HOWEVER, healthcare is not a concern of the greater society, but only
the individual -- with the exception of contagious disease of course,
which effects us all! Cardiovascular diseases, cancers, cirrhosis,
kidney failure, stroke, diabetes, etc..., are NOT contagious but
continue to be a drain on healthcare costs. In fact, most of these
problems are the results of an unhealthy lifestyle.

Listen, I have no objection to folks living an unhealthy lifestyle. I
say, if that's what makes you happy, GO FOR IT!. However, i'll be
damned if i am going to subsidize their healthcare because now they
are dying and can't afford the medical bills.

Likewise if someone gets hit by a bus... was the person j-walking? If
so, too bad. Ride a motorcycle without a helmet and get a concussion,
too bad. Drink and drive and then end up in a coma, too bad! You play
with fire and you get burned! You kick a bear in the ass and you get
eaten. You stick your head in a crocodiles mouth and you suffer the
consequences! You are not fit to survive in this universe. You were
given fear for a reason. You were given pain for a reason. Those who
refuse to learn are culled from the herd.

> > Procreation should be a
> > privilege, however sadly for our collective evolution, it's seems to
> > be a right :(
>
> There is a word for the philosophy that procreation should be a
> privilege reserved for those with good genes: eugenics.

No, the word is evolution; which means: "survival of the fittest".

Listen, i will be the first to admit that evolution is VERY unfair to
those among us who have a poor gene pool. Poor genes are not our
fault. We did not get to CHOOSE our genes, or our parents, or our
country of origin, or etc, etc, etc! But these ARE the cards we were
dealt as individuals of a species. That last sentence is VERY
important: "individuals of a species". We like to think that our
individual lives matter in the greater scheme of things, but i can
assure you we don't matter.

Anyone who has studied animal behavior knows that only the strongest
males are allowed to mate. Why is this? Because strength can only
manifest itself in an individual with quality genes. An indiviual who
is healthy. What all the whiners want to do is strengthen the
degenerates. You want to circumvent evolution and devolve as a species
for nothing more than the sake of your own selfishness.

I can however tell you that what DOES matter is the continued
improvement of the base gene pool. Yes, this improvement comes at a
cost; the cost of the individual. Those with quality genes will reap
the rewards, likewise, those with crap genes will not. Evolution does
not care about you and how long your miserable little life will last,
or if you're going to get that new Apple device for Christmas, or how
many shoes are in your closet, or what brand underwear you choose to
cradle your loins with!

Your measly little 60-100 years of breathing means nothing against the
eons of evolution of individuals within species. YOU are pawn of the
Human species and nothing more. And the Human species is a pawn of
biological lifeforms. When (or if) you finally come to grips with that
grim reality you will be ready to transcend this life -- some make the
connection early, others make the connection on their deathbeds,
others not at all.

> Welcome to fascism, Rick.

Don't try to append me onto a specific ideology structure just because
that group happens to support ONE of my beliefs. I carry no political
or ideological "membership cards" in my pocket. My mind is free of the
boundaries that confine most of the Human species.

But go on falsely believing your little puny life matters. Go on
believing in your worn out traditions and selfish languages and
cultures. Go on believing that humans will be inhabiting this rock in
the next 1000 years, or this universe in the next 10,000 -- because
the enlightened few will have transcended into the mind hive and your @
$$ will be glued to Terra firma forever!

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#20370 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-14 08:27 +1100
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<mailman.5779.1329168462.27778.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#20368
Rick, you are either...

On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can however tell you that what DOES matter is the continued
> improvement of the base gene pool. Yes, this improvement comes at a
> cost; the cost of the individual. Those with quality genes will reap
> the rewards, likewise, those with crap genes will not.

... a Nazi/Fascist/Commie mutant traitor, or...

> But go on falsely believing your little puny life matters. Go on
> believing in your worn out traditions and selfish languages and
> cultures. Go on believing that humans will be inhabiting this rock in
> the next 1000 years, or this universe in the next 10,000 -- because
> the enlightened few will have transcended into the mind hive and your @
> $$ will be glued to Terra firma forever!

... the Borg. I'm not sure which is worse.

Hmm, I think I just godwinned this thread. But at least I could couple
it with a Paranoia reference.

ChrisA

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#20371 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromMark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Date2012-02-13 21:46 +0000
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<mailman.5780.1329169606.27778.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#20368
On 13/02/2012 21:01, Rick Johnson wrote:

> Healthy people do not need healthcare very often, and in the rare
> cases when they do, they don't bog down the system because their
> bodies are strong. Why are their bodies strong? Because healthy people
> eat correctly, healthy people exercise, therefore, healthy people have
> correctly functioning immune systems -- of course quality genes always
> help!

Please explain why previously healthy people get struck down with Common 
Fatigue Syndrome amongst other things.

-- 
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

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#20381 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date2012-02-14 00:19 +0000
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<4f39a896$0$29986$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#20368
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 13:01:05 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote:

> Healthy people do not need healthcare very often

Healthy people don't need healthcase AT ALL.

By definition, once you need healthcare, you are no longer healthy.

Your faith in the magic of "immune system" is touching, but one wonders 
how "immune system" will save people who have been hit by a car.


Rick, isn't it time for you to go back to forking Python so that the 
adoring silent majority who agrees with you can abandon this cesspool of 
inefficient Python code and use your awesome new version? Please don't 
disappoint your millions of fans!


-- 
Steven

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#20383 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromRick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-13 17:07 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<a199bce7-4a86-430b-b717-e0df61e53ed6@f14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#20381
On Feb 13, 6:19 pm, Steven D'Aprano <steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:

> Your faith in the magic of "immune system" is touching, but one wonders
> how "immune system" will save people who have been hit by a car.

Why do you assume that someone hit by a car is a victim? This mindset
is why you (and others like you) cannot understand the REAL problem we
face. The problem that is destroying the world as we speak.

What if you where driving the car and someone ran out from behind a
large truck? (that's called "jaywalking" BTW!) What if you had no time
to stop? Who's to blame: the driver or the rebel pedestrian? Streets
are no place for walking, and sidewalks no place for driving.

Q: But what if the pedestrian had right-of-way?
A: Then the driver (or driver's insurance) would be responsible for
medical bills.

Q: But what if the driver has no money or no insurance
A: Then he NEVER should have been driving in the first place! He made
a really stupid decision! So sell all his belongings at auction and/or
force him into hard labor until the debt is re-paid!

I have no problem providing REAL emergency care for my fellow man who
might find themselves involved in an accident, or an unlucky victim of
violence requiring medical attention -- as long as the accident/
violence was not his fault or caused by his own stupidity! I think
anyone who is human would agree with that. HOWEVER, as i have stated
before, poor health caused by poor life choices is no excuse for free
healthcare. These sloths are the people bankrupting the system!

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#20384 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromIan Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-13 18:29 -0700
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<mailman.5788.1329183029.27778.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#20368
[Reply sent off-list, partly because this is way off-topic, but also
because python-list rejected my response as spam]

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#20574 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromRick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-17 17:13 -0800
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<afc6d1a2-7237-4024-97eb-fc26e95e9b40@t5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>
In reply to#20384
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 7:23 PM, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Rick Johnson
> I make a middle-class income and do not feel that I am anywhere near
> being "enslaved" by my income taxes, which amount to less than 10% of
> my gross income after deductions and credits.

Ten percent?!?! You pay less income tax by percentage than most rich
folks, including Mitt Romney! I envy you since you must be one of the
lucky folks who ONLY pay income tax. I guess you never purchase
ANYTHING or live under the tyranny of local jurisdictions ON TOP of
the federal jurisdiction?

Here is a list of taxes most everyone else will encounter:

    Accounts Receivable Tax
    Building Permit Tax
    Capital Gains Tax
    CDL license Tax
    Cigarette Tax
    Corporate Income Tax
    Court Fines (indirect taxes)
    Deficit spending
    Dog License Tax
    Federal Income Tax
    Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
    Fishing License Tax
    Food License Tax
    Fuel permit tax
    Gasoline Tax
    Gift Tax
    Hunting License Tax
    Inflation
    Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
    Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
    IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
    Liquor Tax
    Local Income Tax
    Luxury Taxes
    Marriage License Tax
    Medicare Tax
    Property Tax
    Real Estate Tax
    Septic Permit Tax
    Service Charge Taxes
    Social Security Tax
    Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
    Sales Taxes
    Recreational Vehicle Tax
    Road Toll Booth Taxes
    School Tax
    State Income Tax
    State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
    Telephone federal excise tax
    Telephone federal universal service fee tax
    Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
    Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
    Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
    Telephone state and local tax
    Telephone usage charge tax
    Toll Bridge Taxes
    Toll Tunnel Taxes
    Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
    Trailer Registration Tax
    Utility Taxes
    Vehicle License Registration Tax
    Vehicle Sales Tax
    Watercraft Registration Tax
    Well Permit Tax
    Workers Compensation Tax

... and don't forget for declare those pennys on your eyes!


> Heck, there are poorer
> people than I who voluntarily donate that much to religious
> organizations on top of their taxes.

Again, lucky you! MOST middle class people pay 30-50% of their income
in taxes!

> Say what you want about the income tax system, but at least net income
> still basically increases monotonically.  If you make more gross than
> me, chances are that you're going to make more net than me as well.

So you support a flat tax system? A system where everybody pays the
same percentage?

Actually i think 10% income tax is a fair amount although i believe
taxing income silly. If the government cannot provide national
security, domestic security, and LIMITED infratructure on 10% of what
we make, they are wasting too much of OUR money.

> > HOWEVER, healthcare is not a concern of the greater society, but only
> > the individual -- with the exception of contagious disease of course,
> > which effects us all!
>
> I disagree, and here's why.  Let's say I'm a billionaire, and I'm
> diagnosed with cancer.  Do you think I can just round up a bunch of
> scientists and tell them "Here's a billion dollars.  Now go find a
> cure my cancer"?  Of course not, it doesn't work that way.  If the
> necessary research hasn't already been done, then it's unlikely that
> it will be finished in the few years or months that I have before the
> cancer kills me, no matter how much of my own money I throw at it.

I agree that keeping R&D "alive" is very important for our collective
advancement. I do not fear technology like some people. Futhermore, i
don't have any problem funding R&D for ANY of the sciences, beit
medical or otherwise. But let me assure you, under a private
healthcare system (psst: the kind where people pay they own way!)
there will ALWAYS be enough people to keep R&D alive. Besides, the
degenerates are only seeking care for self induced heath issues.

> Real medical research is primarily driven by medical treatment.

Yes, but that does not mean we should hand degenerates a meal ticket.

> -- if I
> as a wealthy private investor am going to invest in such a highly
> speculative and risky venture as drug research, I will be more willing
> to invest a large sum of money if the potential recipients (i.e.
> consumers) number in the hundreds of thousands, not just the few
> thousand who will be able to pay for the drug out of pocket.
> Likewise, much of the money the drug companies make off of sales goes
> back into research so that they can be ready with a newer, better drug
> by the time their patents expire.
>
> Distributing health care coverage expands the market for treatments
> and so allows the state of the art to advance faster.  Yes, with
> socialized health care, some of our tax money goes into that pool, and
> a lot of that tax money just ends up as profits in the hands of
> wealthy shareholders.  The other side of that coin, though, is that if
> we ever find ourselves in the position that we need those treatments
> ourselves, the medical state of the art will be that much better for
> it.

And if you can afford the care great, if not, you'd better buy an
insurance policy.

You know, people love to whine about how privatized healthcare is so
unfair to the degenerates. What about the doctors? Would you expect a
doctor to work for free? Remeber, doctors spend a decade or more in
college and rack up HUGE debts to pay for their education. You don't
mind stealing from taxpayers to fund degenerates, but it's the same as
stealing from doctors. Observe:

Doctor: "Okay, your diease is cured. You have a clean bill of heath!
Your bill is $500,000"
Patient: "Thanks doc, but it seems i am little light. Can i just pay
you $20.00 and we call it even?"
Doctor: "What? I just saved your life. I spent the last three months
caring for you. Using expensive medical equipment and years of
laboratory research. Do you know how many lab rats and monkeys died a
horrible death so that you can live? How can I do all that for
$20.00?"

Of course you would not, because you'd have to look the doctor in the
eye whilst robbing him. On the other hand, with tax payer subsidized
healthcare (AKA: Public Heathcare), you don't have to look anyone in
the eye. The victim of your plunder is just some random taxpayer
footing your bills!

People, THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH! Every product that is made and every
service rendered was a result of someone's hard labor. Sleep on that
you degenerates!

Hypocrisy! It's no different than the idiots who whine for the fair
treatment of fluffy mammals but them declare chemical warfare on
insects and reptiles. To them ONLY fluffy mammals deserve fair
treatment because they are so cuddly (and cute BTW) PUKE!.

But you want to know the REAL reason? It's because mammals return love
and reptiles and insects don't. It's because people are selfish. If
another being will no reciprocate their love, then they murder that
being with extreme prejudice, and not feel one bit guilty about it! Do
you understand how backward you are? Do you understand how selfish and
immoral you are? Do you understand how incredibly dense you are?
Because of people like YOU, we don't deserve the right to evolve!

> But beyond that, I also think that we as a society have an ethical
> commitment to help one another out when we find ourselves in trouble,
> because that's what a civilized society is.

I agree totally. Let say an innocent is shot in the course of a
robbery. I would not mind my tax dollars going towards the victims
medical care IF he could not afford the care himself. Even if he was a
degenerate.

On the other hand, if some lame-brain decided to climb MT. Everest and
got stuck on top with frost-bite... TOO BAD! Same goes for dummies who
develop lung caner from somking... TOO BAD! Or cirrhosis of the liver
from one too many "adult beverages"... TOO BAD! Or diabetes from
eating too many candy bars and/or drinking too many sodas... TOO BAD,
TOO BAD, TOO BAD!!!

I am tired of the whines and laments of vermin, almost as much as i am
tired of the silence of the moral majority! It's time to put
degenerates in their place!

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#20577 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2012-02-18 13:13 +1100
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<mailman.5929.1329531205.27778.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#20574
On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is a list of taxes most everyone else will encounter:

You forgot the Microsoft Tax and the Stupid Tax.

ChrisA

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#20578 — Re: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]

FromMark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Date2012-02-18 02:39 +0000
SubjectRe: OT: Entitlements [was Re: Python usage numbers]
Message-ID<mailman.5930.1329532713.27778.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#20574
On 18/02/2012 02:13, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Rick Johnson
> <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> Here is a list of taxes most everyone else will encounter:
>
> You forgot the Microsoft Tax and the Stupid Tax.
>
> ChrisA

This is what I call a tax, some two miles from my home.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-17074716

-- 
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

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