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Groups > comp.lang.python > #107077 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-04-16 14:38 +1000 |
| Last post | 2016-04-18 05:45 +1000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 142 — 36 participants |
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Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-16 14:38 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-04-16 08:05 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 11:06 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 18:32 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 11:51 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:30 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 09:34 +0000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-16 22:03 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Stephen Hansen <me+python@ixokai.io> - 2016-04-16 05:32 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:53 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 19:51 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:58 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-04-16 19:18 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 14:53 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated alex wright <wrightalexw@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 15:21 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-16 19:08 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-04-16 13:25 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 21:33 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-04-16 12:07 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-17 06:08 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-16 16:50 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 08:15 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-17 01:30 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 07:38 -0600
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-16 19:02 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-04-17 00:25 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 09:33 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-04-17 01:29 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated alex wright <wrightalexw@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:43 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 09:11 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:19 +0000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-16 19:12 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2016-04-17 01:24 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-16 20:30 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-04-17 16:35 +0200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-17 13:11 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-16 21:59 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 20:44 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:49 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 18:39 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-18 13:19 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 20:48 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated David Palao <dpalao.python@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 13:35 +0200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-04-17 11:04 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 21:06 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-18 21:03 +1200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 04:07 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-17 14:01 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 21:14 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-04-17 13:04 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-17 15:10 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-18 08:13 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-18 11:57 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-18 11:02 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-18 20:43 +1200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-18 12:17 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 00:01 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-17 01:10 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 03:14 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-17 12:13 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 15:24 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 14:41 -0600
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-18 11:56 +1200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-17 20:29 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Sivan Greenberg <sivan@vitakka.co> - 2016-04-18 16:35 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 22:14 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 15:29 -0600
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 23:20 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-19 17:39 +1200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-19 08:58 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2016-04-18 18:19 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 20:04 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-18 23:29 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 20:54 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 00:11 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 05:55 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 10:05 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 00:13 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 08:34 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-19 18:04 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-19 11:09 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 18:17 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 04:37 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 08:17 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 07:10 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 14:15 +0000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 07:54 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 01:50 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 01:58 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 13:06 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-04-19 17:13 +0000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 00:24 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 02:14 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 09:46 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 12:43 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 11:05 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 14:54 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 10:34 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 22:02 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 11:38 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 12:21 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-04-19 23:23 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 13:41 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-04-20 02:08 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-04-20 00:48 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 10:24 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 10:26 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-20 07:51 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 21:04 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-20 06:50 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 06:59 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-20 00:35 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 11:03 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 21:13 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-20 18:39 +1200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2016-04-19 14:43 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-19 19:20 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 23:22 +0000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 09:33 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 19:02 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 10:32 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 21:57 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-04-19 01:49 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-04-19 11:49 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-19 14:47 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 05:06 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-19 15:14 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-04-19 15:07 +0200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 08:31 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 23:41 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 08:50 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Alice Bevan–McGregor <alice@gothcandy.com> - 2016-04-19 10:45 -0400
Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-17 06:21 +1000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 06:31 +1000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-16 16:44 -0400
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-04-16 21:22 +0000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 07:34 +1000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-04-16 23:35 +0000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-17 11:48 +1000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-04-17 03:52 +0000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-17 11:38 +1000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 05:45 +1000
Page 1 of 8 [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next page →
| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 14:38 +1000 |
| Subject | Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated |
| Message-ID | <5711c1b3$0$1596$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
Until now, PEP 8 has recommended that multi-line expressions should break
*after* infix operators:
result = (this_value *
some_value +
another_value -
excess_value or
default_value
)
After a mercifully short discussion on the Python-Ideas mailing list, Guido
has been persuaded to change PEP 8 to recommend that the break should occur
*before* the infix operator:
result = (this_value
* some_value
+ another_value
- excess_value
or default_value
)
This makes me happy :-)
Guido's announcement, including links to relevant discussion:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2016-April/144205.html
--
Steven
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| From | Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 08:05 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <dne6huFi9sfU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #107077 |
in 758117 20160416 053809 Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote: >Until now, PEP 8 has recommended that multi-line expressions should break >*after* infix operators: > > >result = (this_value * >some_value + >another_value - >excess_value or >default_value >) > > >After a mercifully short discussion on the Python-Ideas mailing list, Guido >has been persuaded to change PEP 8 to recommend that the break should occur >*before* the infix operator: > > >result = (this_value >* some_value >+ another_value >- excess_value >or default_value >) > > >This makes me happy :-) That's how I've always done it. > > >Guido's announcement, including links to relevant discussion: > >https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2016-April/144205.html
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| From | Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 11:06 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <87shym6kpo.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| In reply to | #107083 |
Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com>: > in 758117 20160416 053809 Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote: >>Until now, PEP 8 has recommended that multi-line expressions should >>break *after* infix operators: >> >> >>result = (this_value * >>some_value + >>another_value - >>excess_value or >>default_value >>) >> >> >>After a mercifully short discussion on the Python-Ideas mailing list, >>Guido has been persuaded to change PEP 8 to recommend that the break >>should occur *before* the infix operator: >> >> >>result = (this_value >>* some_value >>+ another_value >>- excess_value >>or default_value >>) >> >> >>This makes me happy :-) > > That's how I've always done it. It doesn't really matter one way or another. The true WTF is that it's been changed. Marko
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 18:32 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.43.1460795561.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107087 |
On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: > It doesn't really matter one way or another. The true WTF is that it's > been changed. Why? Was PEP 8 inscribed on stone tablets carried down from a mountain? ChrisA
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| From | Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 11:51 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <87h9f26ioa.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| In reply to | #107088 |
Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>: > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: >> It doesn't really matter one way or another. The true WTF is that it's >> been changed. > > Why? Was PEP 8 inscribed on stone tablets carried down from a mountain? In a way, yes. I don't follow PEP 8 to the tee; probably nobody does. However, I don't see the point of turning truckloads of exemplary Python code into truckloads of substandard Python code. Marko
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 19:30 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.45.1460799029.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107089 |
On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: > Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>: > >> On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: >>> It doesn't really matter one way or another. The true WTF is that it's >>> been changed. >> >> Why? Was PEP 8 inscribed on stone tablets carried down from a mountain? > > In a way, yes. > > I don't follow PEP 8 to the tee; probably nobody does. However, I don't > see the point of turning truckloads of exemplary Python code into > truckloads of substandard Python code. Let me quote to you from the most important section of PEP 8. """ A style guide is about consistency. Consistency with this style guide is important. Consistency within a project is more important. Consistency within one module or function is the most important. However, know when to be inconsistent -- sometimes style guide recommendations just aren't applicable. When in doubt, use your best judgment. Look at other examples and decide what looks best. And don't hesitate to ask! """ (from the section "A Foolish Consistency is the Hobgoblin of Little Minds") Maybe we need a blog post "Falsehoods Programmers Believe About PEP 8", along the lines of the ones about time and names. Remember, every one of these is false. * All Python code should follow PEP 8. * If you use a tool named pep8, your code will be PEP 8 compliant. * If your code is PEP 8 compliant, a tool named pep8 will accept it. * The Python Standard Library is PEP 8 compliant. * Okay, at least the new parts of the standard library are PEP 8 compliant. * PEP 8 compliant code is inherently better than non-compliant code. * PEP8-ing existing code will improve it. * Once code is PEP 8 compliant, it can easily be kept that way through subsequent edits. * PEP 8 never changes. * Well, it never materially changes. * I mean, new advice, sure, but it'll never actually go back on a rule. Contributions welcomed. ChrisA
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| From | Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 09:34 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.47.1460799286.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107089 |
On Sat, Apr 16, 2016, 10:56 AM Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: > Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>: > > > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> > wrote: > >> It doesn't really matter one way or another. The true WTF is that it's > >> been changed. > > > > Why? Was PEP 8 inscribed on stone tablets carried down from a mountain? > > In a way, yes. > > I don't follow PEP 8 to the tee; probably nobody does. However, I don't > see the point of turning truckloads of exemplary Python code into > truckloads of substandard Python code. > A change to PEP 8 does not change the quality of any code. Many teams follow their own, different styles. >
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 22:03 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <57122a08$0$1584$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #107089 |
On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 06:51 pm, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>: > >> On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: >>> It doesn't really matter one way or another. The true WTF is that it's >>> been changed. >> >> Why? Was PEP 8 inscribed on stone tablets carried down from a mountain? > > In a way, yes. > > I don't follow PEP 8 to the tee; probably nobody does. However, I don't > see the point of turning truckloads of exemplary Python code into > truckloads of substandard Python code. In Guido's own words: The update is already serving its real purpose: showing that style is debatable and cannot always easily be reduced to fixed rules. https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2016-April/144211.html GvR is not a fan of the automatic and compulsory application of PEP 8 conventions without thought, so I don't think he would agree with you that a change in the preferred style automatically and necessarily converts "exemplary Python code" into "substandard Python code". -- Steven
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| From | Stephen Hansen <me+python@ixokai.io> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 05:32 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.49.1460809925.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107089 |
On Sat, Apr 16, 2016, at 01:51 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>: > > > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: > >> It doesn't really matter one way or another. The true WTF is that it's > >> been changed. > > > > Why? Was PEP 8 inscribed on stone tablets carried down from a mountain? > > In a way, yes. > > I don't follow PEP 8 to the tee; probably nobody does. However, I don't > see the point of turning truckloads of exemplary Python code into > truckloads of substandard Python code. This attitude is part of the problem: not following PEP8 does not make code "substandard". PEP8 was never meant to be an authoritative metric of 'good'. Its a set of guidelines that are subject to change over time (this isn't even KINDA the first change!) and represent the core devs taste and particular needs, and it goes out of its way to say that it is only a suggestion and other concerns (especially local consistency) override its advice. --- Stephen Hansen m e @ i x o k a i . i o
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| From | Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 10:53 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.50.1460818461.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107089 |
On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Stephen Hansen <me+python@ixokai.io> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016, at 01:51 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: >> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>: >> >> > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: >> >> It doesn't really matter one way or another. The true WTF is that it's >> >> been changed. >> > >> > Why? Was PEP 8 inscribed on stone tablets carried down from a mountain? >> >> In a way, yes. >> >> I don't follow PEP 8 to the tee; probably nobody does. However, I don't >> see the point of turning truckloads of exemplary Python code into >> truckloads of substandard Python code. > > This attitude is part of the problem: not following PEP8 does not make > code "substandard". PEP8 was never meant to be an authoritative metric > of 'good'. Its a set of guidelines that are subject to change over time > (this isn't even KINDA the first change!) and represent the core devs > taste and particular needs, and it goes out of its way to say that it is > only a suggestion and other concerns (especially local consistency) > override its advice. I have worked for many companies where you are required to get a clean run of pep8 on your code before your pull request will even be considered for approval. I don't agree with this at all, as I think it makes the code very ugly, especially enforcing the max line length. I have referred people to this, but it fell on blind eyes: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#a-foolish-consistency-is-the-hobgoblin-of-little-minds
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| From | Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 19:51 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <878u0d7az5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| In reply to | #107096 |
Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com>: > I have worked for many companies where you are required to get a clean > run of pep8 on your code before your pull request will even be > considered for approval. I don't agree with this at all, as I think it > makes the code very ugly, especially enforcing the max line length. Agh, I was with you until your last remark. A max line length of 79 characters is among the *only* rigorous principles I judge coding style on. It comes with the maxim that one function must be visible at once on the screen. Marko
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| From | Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 12:58 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.54.1460825978.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107101 |
On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: > Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com>: > >> I have worked for many companies where you are required to get a clean >> run of pep8 on your code before your pull request will even be >> considered for approval. I don't agree with this at all, as I think it >> makes the code very ugly, especially enforcing the max line length. > > Agh, I was with you until your last remark. > > A max line length of 79 characters is among the *only* rigorous > principles I judge coding style on. > > It comes with the maxim that one function must be visible at once on the > screen. if we still had 1970's 80 character TTYs that would matter but on my 29" 1920x1080 screen it doesn't.
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| From | BartC <bc@freeuk.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 19:18 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <netvf2$oin$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #107102 |
On 16/04/2016 17:58, Larry Martell wrote: > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: >> Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com>: >> >>> I have worked for many companies where you are required to get a clean >>> run of pep8 on your code before your pull request will even be >>> considered for approval. I don't agree with this at all, as I think it >>> makes the code very ugly, especially enforcing the max line length. >> >> Agh, I was with you until your last remark. >> >> A max line length of 79 characters is among the *only* rigorous >> principles I judge coding style on. >> >> It comes with the maxim that one function must be visible at once on the >> screen. > > if we still had 1970's 80 character TTYs that would matter but on my > 29" 1920x1080 screen it doesn't. There are reasons why 'broadsheet' newspapers don't have a single wide column spanning the entire width of the page, but are divided into multiple columns. (But I think 80 columns is a bit limited. Maybe 100 or 132.) -- Bartc
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| From | Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 14:53 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.57.1460832857.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107105 |
On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 2:18 PM, BartC <bc@freeuk.com> wrote: > On 16/04/2016 17:58, Larry Martell wrote: >> >> On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: >>> >>> Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com>: >>> >>>> I have worked for many companies where you are required to get a clean >>>> run of pep8 on your code before your pull request will even be >>>> considered for approval. I don't agree with this at all, as I think it >>>> makes the code very ugly, especially enforcing the max line length. >>> >>> >>> Agh, I was with you until your last remark. >>> >>> A max line length of 79 characters is among the *only* rigorous >>> principles I judge coding style on. >>> >>> It comes with the maxim that one function must be visible at once on the >>> screen. >> >> >> if we still had 1970's 80 character TTYs that would matter but on my >> 29" 1920x1080 screen it doesn't. > > > There are reasons why 'broadsheet' newspapers don't have a single wide > column spanning the entire width of the page, but are divided into multiple > columns. Nor do they have a \ at the end of each line with the following line indented.
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| From | alex wright <wrightalexw@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 15:21 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.59.1460835499.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107105 |
We employ a pretty hard limit of 100. This way I can reliably have 1 module split vertically with a test or configuration file open or 3 separate modules, etc. I find 80 to be a bit strict, although in the past I've been in unfortunate environments where it was helpful. The rest of PEP8 is largely adhered to wherever possible and it's been wonderful. When I first came to the project it had no real standard and was mostly formatted at the whims of the one dev working on it. It was a mess. The team has grown significantly internationally and a codified standard not rooted in any of our habits is great. (I've never replied to this list so I hope I don't goof up.) On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 2:18 PM, BartC <bc@freeuk.com> wrote: > On 16/04/2016 17:58, Larry Martell wrote: > >> On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> >> wrote: >> >>> Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com>: >>> >>> I have worked for many companies where you are required to get a clean >>>> run of pep8 on your code before your pull request will even be >>>> considered for approval. I don't agree with this at all, as I think it >>>> makes the code very ugly, especially enforcing the max line length. >>>> >>> >>> Agh, I was with you until your last remark. >>> >>> A max line length of 79 characters is among the *only* rigorous >>> principles I judge coding style on. >>> >>> It comes with the maxim that one function must be visible at once on the >>> screen. >>> >> >> if we still had 1970's 80 character TTYs that would matter but on my >> 29" 1920x1080 screen it doesn't. >> > > There are reasons why 'broadsheet' newspapers don't have a single wide > column spanning the entire width of the page, but are divided into multiple > columns. > > (But I think 80 columns is a bit limited. Maybe 100 or 132.) > > -- > Bartc > -- > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > -- "On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." -Charles Babbage, 19th century English mathematician, philosopher, inventor and mechanical engineer who originated the concept of a programmable computer.
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| From | Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 19:08 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.77.1460848093.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107105 |
On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 19:18:17 +0100, BartC <bc@freeuk.com> declaimed the
following:
>(But I think 80 columns is a bit limited. Maybe 100 or 132.)
Common topography practice was 2-2.5 alphabets for column width -- or
52-65 characters... On an old 10pitch typewriter, that meant a 6.5" type
line and 1" margins on 8.5" paper. And still falls 15 characters short of
the old Hollerith card (though many languages used to use the last 8 places
for sequence numbering, hence the 72 character per line practice)
Properly sized, one can take in the entire line with minimal eye motion
(which is one of the points of speed reading classes -- you take in the
entire line without scanning left to right and back..).
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
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| From | Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 13:25 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.56.1460827581.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107101 |
On 4/16/2016 12:58 PM, Larry Martell wrote: > On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: >> Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com>: >> >>> I have worked for many companies where you are required to get a clean >>> run of pep8 on your code before your pull request will even be >>> considered for approval. I don't agree with this at all, as I think it >>> makes the code very ugly, especially enforcing the max line length. >> >> Agh, I was with you until your last remark. >> >> A max line length of 79 characters is among the *only* rigorous >> principles I judge coding style on. >> >> It comes with the maxim that one function must be visible at once on the >> screen. > > if we still had 1970's 80 character TTYs that would matter but on my > 29" 1920x1080 screen it doesn't. It depends on whether one prefers to use the extra width to have long lines or side-by-side windows. I prefer the latter. -- Terry Jan Reedy
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| From | Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 21:33 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <87wpnx5rpe.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| In reply to | #107104 |
Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu>: > On 4/16/2016 12:58 PM, Larry Martell wrote: >> if we still had 1970's 80 character TTYs that would matter but on my >> 29" 1920x1080 screen it doesn't. > > It depends on whether one prefers to use the extra width to have long > lines or side-by-side windows. I prefer the latter. Precisely. I have better uses for my screen than seeing a mostly white, ragged right margin. Marko
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| From | Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-16 12:07 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.58.1460833577.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107101 |
On 04/16/2016 10:25 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: > On 4/16/2016 12:58 PM, Larry Martell wrote: >> On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: >>> Larry Martell wrote: >>>> I have worked for many companies where you are required to get a clean >>>> run of pep8 on your code before your pull request will even be >>>> considered for approval. I don't agree with this at all, as I think it >>>> makes the code very ugly, especially enforcing the max line length. >>> >>> Agh, I was with you until your last remark. >>> >>> A max line length of 79 characters is among the *only* rigorous >>> principles I judge coding style on. >>> >>> It comes with the maxim that one function must be visible at once on the >>> screen. >> >> if we still had 1970's 80 character TTYs that would matter but on my >> 29" 1920x1080 screen it doesn't. > > It depends on whether one prefers to use the extra width to have long > lines or side-by-side windows. I prefer the latter. Python code windows go in my portrait mode 27" screens (120 chars), while xml windows go in landscape mode (220 chars). Yes, there are many reasons why I don't like xml. :( -- ~Ethan~
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| From | Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-17 06:08 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.60.1460837304.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107101 |
Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> writes: > if we still had 1970's 80 character TTYs that would matter but on my > 29" 1920x1080 screen it doesn't. Larry, you've been around long enough to know that's not an argument against a limited line length for code. It is not about the technology of your terminal. It's about the technology of the brain reading the text. -- \ “Fascism is capitalism plus murder.” —Upton Sinclair | `\ | _o__) | Ben Finney
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