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Re: Airplane mode control using Python?

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  Re: Airplane mode control using Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 14:33 +1100
    Re: Airplane mode control using Python? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-22 20:52 -0800
      Re: Airplane mode control using Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 16:37 +1100
        Re: Airplane mode control using Python? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-22 22:59 -0800
          Re: Airplane mode control using Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 19:46 +1100
            Re: Airplane mode control using Python? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-24 17:37 -0800
              Re: Airplane mode control using Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 21:56 +1100
                Re: Airplane mode control using Python? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-25 14:16 -0800
          Re: Airplane mode control using Python? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-23 09:18 +0000
        Re: Airplane mode control using Python? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-22 22:09 -0800
          Re: Airplane mode control using Python? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-23 10:39 +0000
          Re: Airplane mode control using Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 03:12 +1100
      Re: Airplane mode control using Python? Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01@gmail.com> - 2013-12-23 11:08 +0530
      Re: Airplane mode control using Python? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-23 06:34 +0000
      Google Groups + this list Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-23 06:48 -0500
        Re: Google Groups + this list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-24 17:44 -0800
          Re: Google Groups + this list Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-25 23:11 -0500
            Re: Google Groups + this list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-26 12:11 -0800
          Re: Google Groups + this list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-26 15:17 +1100
            Re: Google Groups + this list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-25 21:13 -0800
              Re: Google Groups + this list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-26 23:41 +1100
                Re: Google Groups + this list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-26 12:04 -0800
                  Re: Google Groups + this list Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-12-27 07:31 -0500
          Re: Google Groups + this list Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-26 10:04 +0530
          Re: Google Groups + this list Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-26 08:20 -0500
      Re: Google Groups + this list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-24 03:22 +1100
        Re: Google Groups + this list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-24 17:47 -0800
          Re: Google Groups + this list Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-25 07:19 -0500
            Re: Google Groups + this list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-26 01:26 +1100
            Re: Google Groups + this list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-25 14:09 -0800
          Re: Google Groups + this list Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-12-25 07:25 -0500

Page 1 of 2  [1] 2  Next page →

#62585 — Re: Airplane mode control using Python?

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code. I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is widespread in the net),
>
>     #!/usr/bin/python
>     import android droid = android.Android()
>     # go to airplane mode
>      droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
>
>     droid.makeToast('exiting')
>
> I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'.

Python code is sensitive to changes in whitespace. The above is
actually a syntax error, because lines have been merged and indented
incorrectly. You seem to be posting from Google Groups, which may be
why it's messed up; I recommend switching to something else, like
Mozilla Thunderbird, or subscribing instead to the mailing list (with
all the same content):

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

ChrisA

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#62594

On 12/22/2013 08:33 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code.
>> I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is
>> widespread in the net),
>> 
>>    #!/usr/bin/python
>>    import android droid = android.Android()
>>    # go to airplane mode
>>     droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
>>
>>    droid.makeToast('exiting')
>> 
>> I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'.
> 
> Python code is sensitive to changes in whitespace. The above is 
> actually a syntax error, because lines have been merged and indented 
> incorrectly. You seem to be posting from Google Groups, which may be 
> why it's messed up; I recommend switching to something else, like 
> Mozilla Thunderbird, or subscribing instead to the mailing list
> (with all the same content)

My electricity went out right around the time the OP posted 
from Google Groups, that too was undoubtedly GG's fault.

Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
that it was GG's fault.

If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please 
don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.

Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.  You might
want to take a look at 
 https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG 
clique here.

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#62596

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 3:52 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
> that it was GG's fault.

Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.

ChrisA

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#62602

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.

And you have determined format errors are coming from GG how exactly?
You would need to know the original contents entered into GG, yes?
Perhaps you have done experiments to determine these errors that you
could share with us?

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#62605

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:59 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
>> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
>> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.
>
> And you have determined format errors are coming from GG how exactly?
> You would need to know the original contents entered into GG, yes?
> Perhaps you have done experiments to determine these errors that you
> could share with us?

Previous people's posts to this very list. Search the archives, you
know this to be true!

Why, rurpy, do you continue to support, apologize for, and argue in
favour of, a piece of software that (a) you know to be buggy, and (b)
has perfectly viable alternatives? Why is it so important to you? When
you use an ad-funded service, you are paying for it. When you pay for
a service, you send a message that it is the one you want to use. I
use Google Search because it is excellent; other people feel it's too
invasive of privacy and use DuckDuckGo instead. If DDG were hopelessly
buggy, people would argue against its use - *especially* if that
bugginess caused problems for other people. (Imagine if its crawler
violated robots.txt and common sense, and caused problems for web
servers.) How would the owners/authors of DDG feel if they produced
stupidly buggy software but everyone used it anyway? Pretty well
justified, I would think, and so there'd be no reason for them to put
effort into fixing the bugs.

I'm happy to use all sorts of "free" (aka ad-funded) services - Google
Search, Gmail, Kongregate, The Pirate Bay, Google Docs, Stack
Overflow, IMDB... endless list. I use them because they are good, or
at least because they are better than the alternatives. With some of
them, there's a lock-in effect from the community. If you hate Stack
Overflow, for instance, you have to bypass a whole lot of potential
information. But avoiding Google Groups just means using gmane or
Thunderbird or python-list, and you get all the same content without
any loss. So why stick to something that sends mail with mess all over
it?

ChrisA

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#62699

On 12/23/2013 01:46 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:59 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
>>> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
>>> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.
>>
>> And you have determined format errors are coming from GG how exactly?
>> You would need to know the original contents entered into GG, yes?
>> Perhaps you have done experiments to determine these errors that you
>> could share with us?
> 
> Previous people's posts to this very list. Search the archives, you
> know this to be true!

No I don't.  (To be clear: I and you are not talking 
about the quoting problem but with trashing whitespace 
to a degree greater than other mail/usenet software 
does.)
  
If you don't know what was entered into the posting 
interface how can you say with such certainty that 
what was received was different?

> Why, rurpy, do you continue to support, apologize for, and argue in
> favour of, a piece of software that (a) you know to be buggy, and (b)
> has perfectly viable alternatives?

I have addressed this several times already.  All 
software is buggy.  I even posted long list on the
problems I've had with Thunderbird.  Choosing any 
software is making a tradeoff of one set of features/-
bugs versus another.  For you, with your experience, 
goals and use of the list, there is one tradeoff.  
Others with different experience, goals and use of 
the list may well choose different tradeoffs.

Yet you persist in ignoring that, persist in insisting
that tradeoffs that work for you are best for everyone.

Why do you refuse to see and acknowledge that the work 
involved in subscribing to a list, managing the volume
of mail, and unsubscribing after (to say nothing of 
figuring out arcane usenet), is a lot bigger pain 
than a half dozen mouse clicks to read and post from
GG for many people?

>[...]
> But avoiding Google Groups just means using gmane or
> Thunderbird or python-list, and you get all the same content without
> any loss. So why stick to something that sends mail with mess all over
> it?

It is not (as I just explained to you (yet again) *just*
a matter of using TB or Gmane.  You really need to learn
that your opinion of things is not the gold standard for
the rest of the world.

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#62701

On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 12:37 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have addressed this several times already.  All
> software is buggy.  I even posted long list on the
> problems I've had with Thunderbird.  Choosing any
> software is making a tradeoff of one set of features/-
> bugs versus another.  For you, with your experience,
> goals and use of the list, there is one tradeoff.
> Others with different experience, goals and use of
> the list may well choose different tradeoffs.

Give me an example of how Thunderbird's problems force *every other
reader* to suffer under them and maybe I'll believe that it's
equivalent.

ChrisA

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#62744

On Wednesday, December 25, 2013 3:56:26 AM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 12:37 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I have addressed this several times already.  All
> > software is buggy.  I even posted long list on the
> > problems I've had with Thunderbird.  Choosing any
> > software is making a tradeoff of one set of features/-
> > bugs versus another.  For you, with your experience,
> > goals and use of the list, there is one tradeoff.
> > Others with different experience, goals and use of
> > the list may well choose different tradeoffs.

> Give me an example of how Thunderbird's problems force *every other
> reader* to suffer under them and maybe I'll believe that it's 
> equivalent.

1. I never said they are equivalent.
2. Please see my response to Ned B, I'm not going to 
 repeat it again here.
3. Your redirection away from the original subject, your
 unsubstantiated claim the GG is corrupting whitespace
 and my request for evidence, is noted.

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#62608

On 23/12/2013 08:46, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:59 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
>>> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
>>> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.
>>
>> And you have determined format errors are coming from GG how exactly?
>> You would need to know the original contents entered into GG, yes?
>> Perhaps you have done experiments to determine these errors that you
>> could share with us?
>
> Previous people's posts to this very list. Search the archives, you
> know this to be true!
>
> Why, rurpy, do you continue to support, apologize for, and argue in
> favour of, a piece of software that (a) you know to be buggy, and (b)
> has perfectly viable alternatives?

Big +1

Thinking about it the situation is laughable.  You have an entry on the 
*PYTHON* wiki telling you how to get around bugs in *GOOGLE* code.

>  Why is it so important to you? When
> you use an ad-funded service, you are paying for it. When you pay for
> a service, you send a message that it is the one you want to use. I
> use Google Search because it is excellent; other people feel it's too
> invasive of privacy and use DuckDuckGo instead. If DDG were hopelessly
> buggy, people would argue against its use - *especially* if that
> bugginess caused problems for other people. (Imagine if its crawler
> violated robots.txt and common sense, and caused problems for web
> servers.) How would the owners/authors of DDG feel if they produced
> stupidly buggy software but everyone used it anyway? Pretty well
> justified, I would think, and so there'd be no reason for them to put
> effort into fixing the bugs.
>
> I'm happy to use all sorts of "free" (aka ad-funded) services - Google
> Search, Gmail, Kongregate, The Pirate Bay, Google Docs, Stack
> Overflow, IMDB... endless list. I use them because they are good, or
> at least because they are better than the alternatives. With some of
> them, there's a lock-in effect from the community. If you hate Stack
> Overflow, for instance, you have to bypass a whole lot of potential
> information. But avoiding Google Groups just means using gmane or
> Thunderbird or python-list, and you get all the same content without
> any loss. So why stick to something that sends mail with mess all over
> it?
>
> ChrisA
>

I dislike stackoverflowe as some of the answers there are blatently 
wrong.  However I'll use it but make certain that the answers can be 
verified before proceeding.  However I feel discriminated against using 
Thunderbird to read this via gmane as there isn't an entry on the python 
wiki telling me how to get around the bugs in this software.  Or is that 
because a) there aren't any b) there aren't enough to worry anybody or 
c) it isn't python's responsibility to write up work arounds for bugs in 
Thunderbird or gmane?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#62614

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.

What sort of formatting errors have you seen and how did you 
determine it was Google Groups fault?  You would need to know 
what the original message was, wouldn't you?  Perhaps these 
were experiments you carried out yourself that you could share 
with us?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#62615

On 23/12/2013 06:09, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
>> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
>> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.
>
> What sort of formatting errors have you seen and how did you
> determine it was Google Groups fault?  You would need to know
> what the original message was, wouldn't you?  Perhaps these
> were experiments you carried out yourself that you could share
> with us?
>

Yawn.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#62636

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:09 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
>> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
>> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.
>
> What sort of formatting errors have you seen and how did you
> determine it was Google Groups fault?  You would need to know
> what the original message was, wouldn't you?  Perhaps these
> were experiments you carried out yourself that you could share
> with us?

Unless people were lying through their teeth when they said that their
posted code had worked on their system, I can be pretty sure it was
the fault of the delivery mechanism. Dig through the archive. Also,
you haven't answered the other part of the post, the more important
part.

ChrisA

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#62597

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

I will take care.

Thanks,


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 10:22 AM, <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 12/22/2013 08:33 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code.
> >> I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is
> >> widespread in the net),
> >>
> >>    #!/usr/bin/python
> >>    import android droid = android.Android()
> >>    # go to airplane mode
> >>     droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
> >>
> >>    droid.makeToast('exiting')
> >>
> >> I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'.
> >
> > Python code is sensitive to changes in whitespace. The above is
> > actually a syntax error, because lines have been merged and indented
> > incorrectly. You seem to be posting from Google Groups, which may be
> > why it's messed up; I recommend switching to something else, like
> > Mozilla Thunderbird, or subscribing instead to the mailing list
> > (with all the same content)
>
> My electricity went out right around the time the OP posted
> from Google Groups, that too was undoubtedly GG's fault.
>
> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
> that it was GG's fault.
>
> If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please
> don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.
>
> Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
> who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
> from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.  You might
> want to take a look at
>  https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
> for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG
> clique here.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

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#62599

On 23/12/2013 04:52, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 08:33 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code.
>>> I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is
>>> widespread in the net),
>>>
>>>     #!/usr/bin/python
>>>     import android droid = android.Android()
>>>     # go to airplane mode
>>>      droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
>>>
>>>     droid.makeToast('exiting')
>>>
>>> I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'.
>>
>> Python code is sensitive to changes in whitespace. The above is
>> actually a syntax error, because lines have been merged and indented
>> incorrectly. You seem to be posting from Google Groups, which may be
>> why it's messed up; I recommend switching to something else, like
>> Mozilla Thunderbird, or subscribing instead to the mailing list
>> (with all the same content)
>
> My electricity went out right around the time the OP posted
> from Google Groups, that too was undoubtedly GG's fault.
>
> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
> that it was GG's fault.
>
> If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please
> don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.
>
> Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
> who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
> from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.  You might
> want to take a look at
>   https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
> for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG
> clique here.
>

We are *NOT* anti-GG, we've anti-reading double spaced crap, continuous 
single lines instead of proper paragraphs and badly formed Python source 
code amongst other things.  We *DON'T* as a rule of thumb get this 
problem from any source except GG.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#62616 — Google Groups + this list

On 12/22/13 11:52 PM, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
> that it was GG's fault.

Can we agree that it's not great to respond to a new poster with *just* 
"please don't use GG, it's bad" and no actual attempt to help them? 
It's really unfriendly.  In this case, it wasn't difficult to see the 
code the OP was asking about, and to try to help them.

>
> If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please
> don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.

Rurpy: you're coming on really strong here.  "Stupid"?  No.  People have 
had to deal with the result of Google Groups for a long time, and it's 
not unreasonable to think that the formatting was its fault.

>
> Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
> who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
> from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.

This is disingenuous.  Google Groups clearly does not work fine.  If you 
understand its flaws, and care enough to, you can make it work fine. 
But it's a lot of work.

> You might want to take a look at
>   https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
> for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG
> clique here.

I appreciate the work you put into that page, but those suggestions are 
far from simple for the average newb here.  I think it's very unlikely 
that a new poster is going to read, understand, and follow those 
instructions.

Remember that most posters are not looking to "join the group."  They 
need help with a problem.  They aren't going to put a lot of work into 
anything having to do with this list.  That's just the way it is.

Google Groups is a blessing and a curse.  1) It provides a simple way 
for people to ask questions here.  2) It causes a lot of friction with 
many people on this list.  It won't do any good to pretend that either 
of these things isn't true.

But please, let's not turn this list into an "argue about Google Groups" 
list.

I suggest the following:

1) Don't fault newcomers for using Google Groups.  Politely suggest 
alternatives, but only if you are also helping them, or if they have 
already gotten help.

2) Be careful how you rail against Google Groups.  When you call its 
results "crap" (for example), it can sound like an insult to the poster. 
  You mean to refer to Google Groups, but remember you are also 
referring to the poster's words.

3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups. 
  It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com

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#62709 — Re: Google Groups + this list

On 12/23/2013 04:48 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/22/13 11:52 PM, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
>> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
>> that it was GG's fault.
> 
> Can we agree that it's not great to respond to a new poster with *just* 
> "please don't use GG, it's bad" and no actual attempt to help them? 
> It's really unfriendly.  In this case, it wasn't difficult to see the 
> code the OP was asking about, and to try to help them.
> 
>>
>> If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please
>> don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.
> 
> Rurpy: you're coming on really strong here.  "Stupid"?  No. 

'Stupid" might not have been the most accurate choice
of words but I have no problem with it's strength.
People come here looking for accurate info.  Posting 
unsubstantiated derogatory claims about something 
because one doesn't like that something should not 
be allowed to pass silently.  

It is also important to point it out because people 
who do that also post authoritatively about other
things and readers should be aware how readily such 
people confuse their own opinions and facts.

> People have 
> had to deal with the result of Google Groups for a long time, and it's 
> not unreasonable to think that the formatting was its fault.
 
I think it is unreasonable when one doesn't have any
evidence to support the claim.

>> Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
>> who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
>> from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.
> 
> This is disingenuous.  Google Groups clearly does not work fine.  If you 
> understand its flaws, and care enough to, you can make it work fine. 

OK, that's fair enough.

> But it's a lot of work.

No, it not a "lot" of work (IMO and I use GG for every 
post I make here).  For a poster who expects to post more 
than once or twice (and thus cares about not alienating 
the anti-GG group) but doesn't expect to be a frequent 
poster it may be perfectly reasonable amount of work 
relative to the work involved with any of the other 
options.

The TB/Usenet promoters simply refuse to (or seem to be
incapable of) understanding that figuring out enough about 
usenet/gmane etc to configure a newreader or managing a 
high volume of emails are what is a "lot of work" to
someone who has been using Google Groups.  I for one don't
want my yahoo email account filled with a hundred or more
email messages a day, all of which I have to click a check
box and a delete button to get rid of.  I don't want those
email delivered to a local email account when I find GG 
allows me to quickly scan for messages of interest and
skip the rest without using local resources.  And I find 
GG UI, while flawed, less flawed than many alternatives.

So don't tell *me* it is a lot of work -- the alternatives 
are more so.

And it is not up to you or Chris to decide what is or 
what isn't "a lot of work" for other people.  If it is 
too much work then they won't do it and will decide 
that using usenet or something else is easier.  But what
you and Chris are missing is that that is *their* decision, 
not yours.
 
>> You might want to take a look at
>>   https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
>> for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG
>> clique here.
> 
> I appreciate the work you put into that page, but those suggestions are 
> far from simple for the average newb here.  I think it's very unlikely 
> that a new poster is going to read, understand, and follow those 
> instructions.

Perhaps.  But it is an option that GG users should be 
aware of.

> Remember that most posters are not looking to "join the group."  They 
> need help with a problem.  They aren't going to put a lot of work into 
> anything having to do with this list.  That's just the way it is.

And yet you want them to go though the subscription process
for the email list and then deal with dozens, perhaps hundreds
of messages from it every day?  And then figure out how to 
get off it when they're done?

If they're unwilling to do a simple edit on a message before
posting why would anyone think they'd be willing to do all 
the above?

(And to pre-address the obvious potential mis-interpretation:
I am talking about only a subset of posters.  Some *will* 
find email or usenet easier, and to repeat what I said in 
most every post on this subject: offering the option is 
fine, ignoring GG posts if you don't like them is fine. 
But making wrong or unsupported claims like GG corrupts 
whitespace (more than other software) or is harder to use 
than usenet or a mailing list, or makes people go blind 
is wrong.

> Google Groups is a blessing and a curse.  1) It provides a simple way 
> for people to ask questions here.  2) It causes a lot of friction with 
> many people on this list.  It won't do any good to pretend that either 
> of these things isn't true.
> 
> But please, let's not turn this list into an "argue about Google Groups" 
> list.

Please note that all my "argue about Google Groups" responses
have been to correct some form of misinformation about GG that 
someone else posted first.

> I suggest the following:
> 
> 1) Don't fault newcomers for using Google Groups.  Politely suggest 
> alternatives, but only if you are also helping them, or if they have 
> already gotten help.
> 
> 2) Be careful how you rail against Google Groups.  When you call its 
> results "crap" (for example), it can sound like an insult to the poster. 
>   You mean to refer to Google Groups, but remember you are also 
> referring to the poster's words.
> 
> 3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups. 
>   It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.

That all sounds fine but seems to apply to the anti-GG 
crowd more than me.  I would add:

4) If someone continues to post from GG with no attempt 
to fix the quoting problem (which seem to be the only 
serious problem with GG) and the problem's been pointed 
out one or twice, just stop reading their posts if it 
bothers you too much.

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#62722 — Re: Google Groups + this list

On 12/24/13 8:44 PM, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/23/2013 04:48 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 12/22/13 11:52 PM, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
>>> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
>>> that it was GG's fault.
>>
>> Can we agree that it's not great to respond to a new poster with *just*
>> "please don't use GG, it's bad" and no actual attempt to help them?
>> It's really unfriendly.  In this case, it wasn't difficult to see the
>> code the OP was asking about, and to try to help them.
>>
>>>
>>> If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please
>>> don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.
>>
>> Rurpy: you're coming on really strong here.  "Stupid"?  No.
>
> 'Stupid" might not have been the most accurate choice
> of words but I have no problem with it's strength.
> People come here looking for accurate info.  Posting
> unsubstantiated derogatory claims about something
> because one doesn't like that something should not
> be allowed to pass silently.

Chris actually said, "You seem to be posting from Google Groups, which 
may be why it's messed up; I recommend switching to something else, like 
Mozilla Thunderbird, or subscribing instead to the mailing list (with 
all the same content)"

This is pretty gentle, and includes words like "may" and "recommend".

Also, let's be clear: I didn't like Chris' message, because it didn't 
attempt to help the OP.

I'm not taking the "don't use Google Groups" side in this debate.  You 
seem to think I am, but I'm not.  My point is, "talk about Python, not 
about Google Groups."

>
> It is also important to point it out because people
> who do that also post authoritatively about other
> things and readers should be aware how readily such
> people confuse their own opinions and facts.
>
>> People have
>> had to deal with the result of Google Groups for a long time, and it's
>> not unreasonable to think that the formatting was its fault.
>
> I think it is unreasonable when one doesn't have any
> evidence to support the claim.
>
>>> Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
>>> who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
>>> from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.
>>
>> This is disingenuous.  Google Groups clearly does not work fine.  If you
>> understand its flaws, and care enough to, you can make it work fine.
>
> OK, that's fair enough.
>
>> But it's a lot of work.
>
> No, it not a "lot" of work (IMO and I use GG for every
> post I make here).  For a poster who expects to post more
> than once or twice (and thus cares about not alienating
> the anti-GG group) but doesn't expect to be a frequent
> poster it may be perfectly reasonable amount of work
> relative to the work involved with any of the other
> options.

Yes, that's a point I've also been trying to make: we're in agreement here.

>
> The TB/Usenet promoters simply refuse to (or seem to be
> incapable of) understanding that figuring out enough about
> usenet/gmane etc to configure a newreader or managing a
> high volume of emails are what is a "lot of work" to
> someone who has been using Google Groups.  I for one don't
> want my yahoo email account filled with a hundred or more
> email messages a day, all of which I have to click a check
> box and a delete button to get rid of.  I don't want those
> email delivered to a local email account when I find GG
> allows me to quickly scan for messages of interest and
> skip the rest without using local resources.  And I find
> GG UI, while flawed, less flawed than many alternatives.
>
> So don't tell *me* it is a lot of work -- the alternatives
> are more so.
>
> And it is not up to you or Chris to decide what is or
> what isn't "a lot of work" for other people.  If it is
> too much work then they won't do it and will decide
> that using usenet or something else is easier.  But what
> you and Chris are missing is that that is *their* decision,
> not yours.

I'm not telling people not to use Google Groups.  In fact, I've said 
twice now in this thread that we have to accept Google Groups postings 
as part of this list.  My point is simply that we have to take care not 
to turn this list into a list about Google Groups, one way or the other.

Kevin started this thread by asking a question.  Chris responded without 
helping the OP, and talked about Google Groups instead.  That's not 
good.  Then you responded to Chris, not helping the OP, and talking 
about Google Groups instead.  That's also not good.

I have found some of the anti-GG responses off-putting, and I wish they 
would stop.  Words like "crap" aren't making anyone feel welcome.  In 
this thread, I felt like your attempts to correct those responses were 
also crossing a line.

That's why I'd personally prefer that everyone tone down the rhetoric on 
both sides of the debate.  For the most part, it will be impossible to 
get anyone to change how they access the list.  The best we can do is a 
polite suggestion that Google Groups puts some people off, and that more 
responses will likely result from using another tool.  Beyond that, it's 
just more useless yelling at each other.

>
>>> You might want to take a look at
>>>    https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
>>> for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG
>>> clique here.
>>
>> I appreciate the work you put into that page, but those suggestions are
>> far from simple for the average newb here.  I think it's very unlikely
>> that a new poster is going to read, understand, and follow those
>> instructions.
>
> Perhaps.  But it is an option that GG users should be
> aware of.
>
>> Remember that most posters are not looking to "join the group."  They
>> need help with a problem.  They aren't going to put a lot of work into
>> anything having to do with this list.  That's just the way it is.
>
> And yet you want them to go though the subscription process
> for the email list and then deal with dozens, perhaps hundreds
> of messages from it every day?  And then figure out how to
> get off it when they're done?
>
> If they're unwilling to do a simple edit on a message before
> posting why would anyone think they'd be willing to do all
> the above?
>
> (And to pre-address the obvious potential mis-interpretation:
> I am talking about only a subset of posters.  Some *will*
> find email or usenet easier, and to repeat what I said in
> most every post on this subject: offering the option is
> fine, ignoring GG posts if you don't like them is fine.
> But making wrong or unsupported claims like GG corrupts
> whitespace (more than other software) or is harder to use
> than usenet or a mailing list, or makes people go blind
> is wrong.

To address your mis-interpretation: I'm not telling people not to use 
Google Groups.  I'm asking everyone to calm down about whether people 
use Google Groups or not.  Again, we agree: as I've said in this thread, 
many posters are not looking to "join the group", they are looking for 
help with their problem at hand.  They won't do *anything* that is 
difficult, especially where they can't see the flaws they are supposed 
to be correcting.

>
>> Google Groups is a blessing and a curse.  1) It provides a simple way
>> for people to ask questions here.  2) It causes a lot of friction with
>> many people on this list.  It won't do any good to pretend that either
>> of these things isn't true.
>>
>> But please, let's not turn this list into an "argue about Google Groups"
>> list.
>
> Please note that all my "argue about Google Groups" responses
> have been to correct some form of misinformation about GG that
> someone else posted first.

That's true, but it's still a message about Google Groups, and not about 
the OP's question.

>
>> I suggest the following:
>>
>> 1) Don't fault newcomers for using Google Groups.  Politely suggest
>> alternatives, but only if you are also helping them, or if they have
>> already gotten help.
>>
>> 2) Be careful how you rail against Google Groups.  When you call its
>> results "crap" (for example), it can sound like an insult to the poster.
>>    You mean to refer to Google Groups, but remember you are also
>> referring to the poster's words.
>>
>> 3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups.
>>    It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.
>
> That all sounds fine but seems to apply to the anti-GG
> crowd more than me.

Well, point 3 applies to you. "Protracted debates" include views from 
both sides.

> I would add:
>
> 4) If someone continues to post from GG with no attempt
> to fix the quoting problem (which seem to be the only
> serious problem with GG) and the problem's been pointed
> out one or twice, just stop reading their posts if it
> bothers you too much.
>

I think that's a fine point #4, I'm not sure what other option there is 
in that case.

I'm a big believer in ignoring behavior that bothers you.  But you 
aren't ignoring Chris, and I'm not ignoring you, so clearly we both also 
believe in directly addressing behavior we don't like.  When to ignore, 
and when to act?  It's not easy to decide.

I'd like this list to be a respectful place that focuses on Python 
rather than on side issues.  This thread quickly turned into a rancorous 
debate about Google Groups rather than helping the OP with a Python 
question.  That's why I spoke up.

BTW: These discussions get fractured and difficult in email threads. 
I'm in the #python channel on freenode as nedbat if that would be a 
better way to reach an understanding.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com

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#62755 — Re: Google Groups + this list

On 12/25/2013 09:11 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/24/13 8:44 PM, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On 12/23/2013 04:48 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>>> On 12/22/13 11:52 PM, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
>[...]
>>> But it's a lot of work.
>> No, it not a "lot" of work (IMO and I use GG for every
>[...]
> Yes, that's a point I've also been trying to make: we're in agreement here.

Then you can understand why I was confused when you 
wrote that it *was* a lot of work? ;-)

>[...]
> I'm not telling people not to use Google Groups.  In fact, I've said 
> twice now in this thread that we have to accept Google Groups postings 
> as part of this list.  My point is simply that we have to take care not 
> to turn this list into a list about Google Groups, one way or the other.
> 
> Kevin started this thread by asking a question.  Chris responded without 
> helping the OP, and talked about Google Groups instead.  That's not 
> good.  Then you responded to Chris, not helping the OP, and talking 
> about Google Groups instead.  That's also not good.
> 
> I have found some of the anti-GG responses off-putting, and I wish they 
> would stop.  Words like "crap" aren't making anyone feel welcome.  In 
> this thread, I felt like your attempts to correct those responses were 
> also crossing a line.
> 
> That's why I'd personally prefer that everyone tone down the rhetoric on 
> both sides of the debate.  For the most part, it will be impossible to 
> get anyone to change how they access the list.  The best we can do is a 
> polite suggestion that Google Groups puts some people off, and that more 
> responses will likely result from using another tool.  Beyond that, it's 
> just more useless yelling at each other.

Yes, I agree.  And if it sounded like I was putting
you and Chris in the same bucket, I apologize.  It 
was partly because you did seem to be agreeing with 
him (see for example above and your other post) and 
partly because it is hard in dashing off a quick reply
to always distinguish between the personal "you" and
the general "you" (anti-GG people).

>[...]
>>> 3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups.
>>>    It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.
>>
>> That all sounds fine but seems to apply to the anti-GG
>> crowd more than me.
> 
> Well, point 3 applies to you. "Protracted debates" include views from 
> both sides.
> 
>> I would add:
>>
>> 4) If someone continues to post from GG with no attempt
>> to fix the quoting problem (which seem to be the only
>> serious problem with GG) and the problem's been pointed
>> out one or twice, just stop reading their posts if it
>> bothers you too much.
> 
> I think that's a fine point #4, I'm not sure what other option there is 
> in that case.
> 
> I'm a big believer in ignoring behavior that bothers you.  But you 
> aren't ignoring Chris, and I'm not ignoring you, so clearly we both also 
> believe in directly addressing behavior we don't like.  When to ignore, 
> and when to act?  It's not easy to decide.

I do think one needs to distinguish between the initiator 
of a contentious topic, and a responder, with preponderance
of any "blame" to be assigned falling on the former.  
(I'm excluding responding to obvious trolling here.)

I've said all along (in agreement with what you wrote), 
I've no problem with pointing out, factually, that there 
are some here who have a problem with posts from GG and 
informing them that there are alternatives.  

But going beyond that to make false (or unsupportable) 
claims, or denigrating someone's tool, which they may 
prefer for perfectly good reasons, with excessively strong 
and offensive language, or other "pushing" (to use Chris' 
term), should not be ignored.  Not just for the obvious 
ethical reasons but for the practical one that ignoring 
them is likely to drive people new to Python away from 
what should be a useful place of support.  (Not ignoring
them, resulting in these GG threads, also drives people 
away but I don't know how to fix that.  Hopefully the 
number is fewer.)

Thanks for making a number of reasonable and sensible 
points in this sometimes overheated discussion. 

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#62723 — Re: Google Groups + this list

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
> Kevin started this thread by asking a question.  Chris responded without
> helping the OP, and talked about Google Groups instead.  That's not good.

The only reason I didn't directly help the OP was because the code was
misformatted and it was necessary to request that it be reposted.
Perhaps I should have been clearer in saying "Please repost your code
with correct formatting", but there wasn't much else I could have
done.

Or maybe I should have just filtered everything from Google Groups
into the bit bucket, because responding just creates threads like
this. Do you honestly think that would be better? No response at all
if the post comes from GG?

ChrisA

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#62736 — Re: Google Groups + this list

On 12/25/2013 09:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>[...]
> Or maybe I should have just filtered everything from Google Groups
> into the bit bucket, because responding just creates threads like
> this. Do you honestly think that would be better? No response at all
> if the post comes from GG?

Do you really think that if *you* ignore Google Groups, then
Google Groups posters will get "no response at all"?  Could 
you please turn down your ego a little?

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