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Groups > comp.lang.python > #61380 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2013-12-09 12:23 +0000 |
| Last post | 2014-01-29 03:09 +0000 |
| Articles | 10 on this page of 130 — 29 participants |
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Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 12:23 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 05:54 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 08:57 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2013-12-09 12:55 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-10 18:25 +1300
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-10 16:55 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-11 10:38 +1300
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-10 20:35 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-12-11 02:16 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2013-12-11 07:08 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-11 15:05 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 16:47 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-16 20:06 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 01:25 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 12:27 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-12-16 20:32 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Cousin Stanley" <cousinstanley@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 07:32 -0700
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-12-17 12:27 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-11 15:46 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk> - 2013-12-09 23:32 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-09 18:42 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk> - 2013-12-10 00:00 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-09 20:56 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-12 21:36 +0100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-13 08:12 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-16 21:32 +0100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-16 23:01 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-16 19:28 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 16:39 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 11:44 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 17:58 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-17 02:33 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 20:41 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-17 14:51 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-17 09:54 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 15:07 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-17 15:24 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 15:35 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 11:21 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 08:56 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 10:03 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 05:20 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 13:39 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) - 2014-01-29 03:17 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 11:12 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-17 12:18 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-17 16:51 +0100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-17 16:59 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 12:18 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 17:24 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 17:44 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-17 19:38 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-17 19:39 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-18 18:05 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-18 18:17 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 20:49 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 02:05 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-19 15:54 +0100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 20:40 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 20:05 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 23:16 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 15:26 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 20:48 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 09:14 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 22:03 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-19 19:40 +1300
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-17 20:20 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 17:09 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-17 19:32 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 01:33 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 13:11 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 08:22 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 19:32 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
language Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-12-18 07:53 -0500
Re: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 01:55 +1100
Re: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-19 00:10 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-18 15:17 +0000
Re: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first
programming language Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-12-18 15:52 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-19 19:41 +1300
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
language Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-12-19 07:06 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-18 18:00 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-18 18:07 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 20:56 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-19 18:39 +1300
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-19 00:56 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Paul Smith <paul@mad-scientist.net> - 2013-12-17 22:49 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 08:18 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 19:51 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 16:20 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 04:02 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-18 07:23 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 08:53 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-18 19:29 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 16:20 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-18 17:15 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 17:12 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 04:28 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-19 18:40 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 07:18 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-19 19:38 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-20 00:45 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-20 02:16 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-20 18:58 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-20 21:04 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-27 14:35 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-18 17:33 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 17:06 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 04:18 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 00:21 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 07:53 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 18:33 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 14:01 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 19:12 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 14:24 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-19 00:49 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 11:54 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 20:29 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 04:50 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 21:09 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 05:36 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 21:31 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-19 19:30 -0500
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 01:18 -0800
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 10:06 +0000
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 01:10 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-17 16:22 +0100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-19 16:14 +0100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-20 09:42 +1300
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 07:51 +1100
Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) - 2014-01-29 03:09 +0000
Page 7 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7]
| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-19 21:31 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <52b365b6$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #62370 |
On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 04:50:54 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote: > If C is such a crap language, what does it says for the thousands of > languages that never got anywhere? Or did C simply have a far larger > sales and marketing budget? :) The sociology of computer languages is a fascinating topic. Like any technology, it's a mix of factors. Why did VHS defeat Betamax when all the experts agreed Betamax was the better system? How did Windows take over IT? The advantages of C in the 1970s and 80s included: - although "portable C code" is a sad joke, compared to most of the languages that came before it, C *is* portable; - C compilers can be small, efficient and fast, although they weren't as small, efficient and fast as (say) TurboPascal; - the machine code they generated was acceptably lightweight and fast, although not as lightweight and fast as (say) Forth; - C was an open standard at a time when computing was big enough that open standards were becoming important; - C did (and still does) have some areas where it is quite advantageous, like systems programming; - C benefited from it's close association with Unix, where Unix went, so did C; - Unix made some universities a lot of money, hence they had a motive to support C with both money and attention; - C was associated with universities, so people learned C and then taught C to the next generation of students, who went on to introduce C to industry; and - C (like Perl) falls into the hacker-machismo sweet-spot, where it is just challenging enough to still be fun without being either too easy or too hard. It is low-level enough to allow premature optimization (without being as low as assembly language, which is too low-level to be fun) and gives the freedom to play code golf and write amazingly obfuscated code. So C is a language that allows hackers to show off. Some of those reasons also applied to Lisp, and remember that in the 1970s and even 80s Lisp compilers were at least as efficient as C compilers. I believe there are two factors that lead to C becoming more popular than Lisp. The first is Worse Is Better: http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html The second is that, despite all the weird punctuation and digraphs and even trigraphs, C fits the mental space of English-speakers better than Lisp. To the average programmer, C is a more natural syntax and programming model than Lisp. -- Steven
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| From | Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-19 19:30 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <roy-D08422.19303919122013@news.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #62418 |
In article <52b365b6$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote: [some stuff] > where Unix went, so did C; [some more stuff] What he said.
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| From | rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-18 01:18 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <23663ad2-9b3f-4950-87af-ea1be504234b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #62178 |
On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:42:07 PM UTC+5:30, Oscar Benjamin wrote: > On 17 December 2013 00:39, rusi wrote: > > I had a paper some years ago on why C is a horrible language *to teach with* > > http://www.the-magus.in/Publications/chor.pdf > Thanks for this Rusi, I just read it and it describes very well what I > think about our own C course. My choice quote from the beginning would > be "When the irrelevant becomes significant, the essentials become > obscured and incomprehensible." > (BTW is there any reason that the document is repeated twice in the same pdf?) Thanks for the heads-up -- some pdf generation issues I guess Is it ok now? Yeah I could clean up some more formatting some more but its 25 years now and Ive forgotten my troff!! More important the tone is not what I would use today. The point I was trying to make then was: C is an unsuitable language to TEACH PROGRAMMING WITH because it fills students' brains with irreleventia Once one knows the stuff, C is a NEAT programming language. IOW its a question of learning-curve not the content.
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| From | Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-18 10:06 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.4342.1387361560.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #62286 |
On 18 December 2013 09:18, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote: >> (BTW is there any reason that the document is repeated twice in the same pdf?) > > Thanks for the heads-up -- some pdf generation issues I guess > > Is it ok now? Yes. Also it definitely reads better without the twocolumn format. Oscar
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-18 01:10 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.4283.1387289432.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #62121 |
On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> wrote: > I was also taught C as an undergrad but having already learned Java, C > and C++ before arriving at University I found the C course very easy > so my own experience is not representative. Many of the other students > at that time found the course too hard and just cheated on all the > assignments (I remember one students offering to fix/finish anyone's > assignment in exchange for a bottle of cider!). Student cheats on assignment and gets, in effect, a fraudulent certification. (Piece of paper claims competence, competence doesn't exist.) Graduating student shows certification to employer. Employer hires ex-student, because employer doesn't know good code from bad (hence hiring someone). Ex-student writes a pile of junk, then leaves for a better opportunity. Real programmer is hired, or seconded from another project, to fix a few small issues in ex-student's code. Lunatic asylum gains another patient. It's all too common. I'd like to tell people that they're only cheating themselves, but the trouble is, they're cheating other people a lot more. ChrisA
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| From | Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-17 16:22 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <20131217162233.1538587c27b6a27df9a33aee@gmx.net> |
| In reply to | #62120 |
> > It's not just the abysmally appalling, hideously horrifying syntax. > > At about everything about C is just *not* "made for human beings" > > imho. > > I've never heard C syntax reviled quite so intensely. What syntax do > you like, out of curiosity? Pascal, Python, if written by someone who uses semantic identifiers and avoids to use C(++)/Java-isms. I've seen Eiffel as well (without understanding it) and it didn't look ridiculous to me. In short, syntax that contains the strict minimum of "special" characters (delimiting lists etc. with brackets is ok to me), and almost exclusively human readable words. Although, if you push it to the extreme; Applescript is nice to read, but much less nice to write imho... :-/ C, C++, Java, Javascript, PHP, Perl etc., however, are just unspeakable <expletives>. <rant> BTW; Yes, I do *hate* those C(++)-isms (or Java-isms) that have started to sneak into Python in the past ~10 years. Using e.g. == for comparisons is just braindead. Use := for assignments instead, because that's mathematical syntax. And that "@" for decorators is, well, who proposed it? I'd like to cut off all his fingers with a bolt cutter. The same for people who use augmented assignments, "syntax shortcuts" or abbrvtd idtfrs. Ship them all to Fukushima, one way, no return ticket. Learn to touch-type, get an editor with decent syntax completion or just stop wreaking havoc to the world economy with your laziness. Code is read a hundred times more often than it is typed. </rant> Sincerely, Wolfgang
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| From | Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-19 16:14 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <20131219161413.b011741a67dba9eb892dd500@gmx.net> |
| In reply to | #62203 |
> > I've never heard C syntax reviled quite so intensely. What syntax > > do you like, out of curiosity? > > Pascal, Python, if written by someone who uses semantic identifiers > and avoids to use C(++)/Java-isms. I've seen Eiffel as well (without > understanding it) and it didn't look ridiculous to me. Nor did a recent dialect of Cobol (since someone else mentioned it) horrify me at first sight to the point all those C-derivatives do. I also get to use SQL a bit (instead of those "query builders" that I consider as garbage), although that's just for databases of course. Verbosity is definitely A Good Thing. In fact, thinking of it, a really good language should imho *require* verbosity (how about a *minimum* length - or maybe even a dictionary-based sanity check - for identifiers?), since that already keeps all those lazy morons away who think that "shortcuts are cool". Sincerely, Wolfgang
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| From | Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-20 09:42 +1300 |
| Subject | Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language |
| Message-ID | <bhh40sFd6k7U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #62400 |
Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> In fact, thinking of it, a really good language should imho *require*
> verbosity (how about a *minimum* length - or maybe even a
> dictionary-based sanity check - for identifiers?), since that already
> keeps all those lazy morons away who think that "shortcuts are cool".
No, that wouldn't be a really good language, that
would be a language designed by someone with a
very shallow understanding of what makes programs
understandable.
A piece of code such as
for (i = 0; i < numThings; i++)
total[i] += things[i];
is NOT improved by rewriting it as
for (theLoopIndex = 0; theLoopIndex < numThings; theLoopIndex++)
total[theLoopIndex] += things[theLoopIndex];
Quite the reverse, IMO.
--
Greg
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-20 07:51 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.4422.1387486280.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #62415 |
On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 7:42 AM, Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote: > A piece of code such as > > for (i = 0; i < numThings; i++) > total[i] += things[i]; > > is NOT improved by rewriting it as > > for (theLoopIndex = 0; theLoopIndex < numThings; theLoopIndex++) > total[theLoopIndex] += things[theLoopIndex]; > > Quite the reverse, IMO. Wholeheartedly agreed. The only improvement I would make would be to declare i in the if block (valid in C++ and some of the more recent C standards), to emphasize the locality of the variable. ChrisA
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| From | dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-01-29 03:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <lc9rd0$5tv$1@reader1.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #62102 |
In article <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> wrote: >> > And ever after that experience, I avoided all languages that were >> > even remotely similar to C, such as C++, Java, C#, Javascript, PHP >> > etc. >> >> I think that's disappointing, for two reasons. Firstly, C syntax isn't >> that terrible. > >It's not just the abysmally appalling, hideously horrifying syntax. At >about everything about C is just *not* "made for human beings" imho. > >It's just an un-language that gets at about everything wrong. Sort of >like Microsoft's products. > >Sincerely, > >Wolfgang > I don't see how you could create a better high-level LOW-LEVEL language. And that pointer "*" syntax is really ingenious. (After all, the guys who created it and those who first used it (at Bell Labs) WERE all geniuses!) David
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