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Python education survey

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  Python education survey Raymond Hettinger <raymond.hettinger@gmail.com> - 2011-12-19 19:51 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 17:27 +1100
    Re: Python education survey Luka Dornhecker <luka.dornhecker@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-19 23:20 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 02:32 -0500
    Re: Python education survey Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2011-12-20 09:14 +0100
      Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 03:02 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 06:45 -0800
        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 02:51 +1100
    Re: Python education survey Andrea Crotti <andrea.crotti.0@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 10:58 +0000
      Re: Python education survey Carl Smith <carl.input@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 21:59 -0800
        Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 03:41 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 04:53 +1100
            Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 11:45 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 12:04 -0800
                Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 13:44 -0800
                  Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 17:56 -0800
                    Re: Python education survey Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-12-27 20:21 -0600
                      Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 18:42 -0800
                        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 14:54 +1100
                        Re: Python education survey Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-28 06:59 +0000
                          Re: Python education survey rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 23:49 -0800
                          Re: Python education survey Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-12-31 16:27 +0000
                            Re: Python education survey Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-12-31 13:23 -0500
                              Re: Python education survey Alexander Kapps <alex.kapps@web.de> - 2011-12-31 20:06 +0100
                                Re: Python education survey Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-01-01 02:36 +0000
                                  Re: Python education survey Alexander Kapps <alex.kapps@web.de> - 2012-01-01 05:53 +0100
                                    Re: Python education survey Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-01-02 17:02 +0000
                              Re: Python education survey Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-12-31 23:44 -0600
                        Re: Python education survey Dominic Binks <dbinks@codeaurora.org> - 2011-12-31 21:12 -0800
                          Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-01-02 21:27 -0800
                            Re: Python education survey Dominic Binks <dbinks@codeaurora.org> - 2012-01-02 22:03 -0800
                            Re: Python education survey Evan Driscoll <edriscoll@wisc.edu> - 2012-01-03 01:31 -0500
                            Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2012-01-03 04:33 -0800
                              Re: Python education survey Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-01-04 01:30 +0000
                        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-01-01 16:50 +1100
                    Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 04:25 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 10:07 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Fernando Perez <fperez.net@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 01:40 +0000
    Re: Python education survey Ashton Fagg <ashton@fagg.id.au> - 2011-12-21 12:06 +1000
      Re: Python education survey Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-12-20 21:34 -0500
        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 13:44 +1100
        Re: Python education survey Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 11:57 -0500
          Re: Python education survey Raymond Hettinger <raymond.hettinger@gmail.com> - 2011-12-22 12:01 -0800
          Re: Python education survey rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-22 19:05 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-25 09:44 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 14:27 +1100
        Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 06:52 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 11:11 -0500
            Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 09:27 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-26 18:04 +0000
            Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 10:32 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 06:56 +1100
      Re: Python education survey Carl Smith <carl.input@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 22:14 -0800
        Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 08:37 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 04:50 +1100
            Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 10:11 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 08:13 +1100
              Re: Python education survey Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 14:31 -0700
    Re: Python education survey Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2011-12-25 22:02 -0800
    Re: Python education survey K Richard Pixley <rich@noir.com> - 2011-12-27 09:59 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 12:26 -0600
        Re: Python education survey K Richard Pixley <rich@noir.com> - 2011-12-27 14:04 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 16:57 -0600
            Re: Python education survey 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-27 17:21 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 18:01 -0800
            Re: Python education survey 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-27 17:21 -0800
        Re: Python education survey rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 21:50 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 10:21 -0800
        Re: Python education survey K Richard Pixley <rich@noir.com> - 2011-12-27 12:39 -0800

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#18040

On 12/27/2011 11:59 AM, K Richard Pixley wrote:
> You'd do better to encourage eclipse, but setting that up isn't
> trivial either.
IIRC, all I had to do to set up PyDev was copy a URL to Eclipse's 
"Install New Software" wizard, and have Eclipse download and install it. 
Extra steps are needed if a different implementation of Python (e.g. 
Jython) is needed, but other than that, the user only needs to specify a 
couple options (e.g. Python grammar version) at project creation time. 
This assumes that Python is already installed, but why wouldn't it be?

> You could create your own distribution of eclipse, but
> then you have that "only useful for python" problem again.
AFAIK, Eclipse should always be good for Java unless you do some serious 
hacking.

> If students are going to go anywhere else after this class, they're
> going to need to either be able to learn to switch editors or find an
> editor they can use more generally.
There are a ton of editors that have syntax highlighting and other 
little features for many languages.

-- 
CPython 3.2.2 | Windows NT 6.1.7601.17640

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#18064

On 12/27/11 10:26 , Andrew Berg wrote:
> On 12/27/2011 11:59 AM, K Richard Pixley wrote:
>> You'd do better to encourage eclipse, but setting that up isn't
>> trivial either.
> IIRC, all I had to do to set up PyDev was copy a URL to Eclipse's
> "Install New Software" wizard, and have Eclipse download and install it.
> Extra steps are needed if a different implementation of Python (e.g.
> Jython) is needed, but other than that, the user only needs to specify a
> couple options (e.g. Python grammar version) at project creation time.
> This assumes that Python is already installed, but why wouldn't it be?

You still need to match versions of PyDev to versions of Eclipse to 
versions of operating system to versions of other eclipse plugins.  I 
spent a few days trying to get it together once and came to the 
conclusion that it was a much bigger effort than I was willing to commit to.

>> You could create your own distribution of eclipse, but
>> then you have that "only useful for python" problem again.
> AFAIK, Eclipse should always be good for Java unless you do some serious
> hacking.

Depends on which versions of eclipse, java, os, other plugins, etc.

>> If students are going to go anywhere else after this class, they're
>> going to need to either be able to learn to switch editors or find an
>> editor they can use more generally.
> There are a ton of editors that have syntax highlighting and other
> little features for many languages.

Exactly.  My preference is emacs but I'll admit that the learning curve 
there is pretty high by today's standards.  (Whether it's worth the 
effort is a debatable point.)  There are certainly many others.

--rich

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#18071

On 12/27/2011 4:04 PM, K Richard Pixley wrote:
> You still need to match versions of PyDev to versions of Eclipse to
> versions of operating system to versions of other eclipse plugins.  I
> spent a few days trying to get it together once and came to the
> conclusion that it was a much bigger effort than I was willing to commit to.
This is more of a package management issue than an Eclipse one. I had no 
problems getting the very latest stable versions of everything on 
Windows. I'm pretty sure most schools will be using Windows for 
workstations anyway. In any case, if Eclipse is impractical for whatever 
reason, obviously it would be wise to try something else.

>>>  You could create your own distribution of eclipse, but
>>>  then you have that "only useful for python" problem again.
>>  AFAIK, Eclipse should always be good for Java unless you do some serious
>>  hacking.
>
> Depends on which versions of eclipse, java, os, other plugins, etc.
How so? AFAIK, Eclipse is almost (if not completely) unusable without Java.

-- 
CPython 3.2.2 | Windows NT 6.1.7601.17640

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#18081

There are Dr.Python, Pycrust and  Notepadplus to support writing python programs. 

IDLE is OK, but if a program failed inside IDLE, then I  might have 
to kill the old IDLE and restart IDLE again.

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#18085

On Dec 27, 7:21 pm, 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> There are Dr.Python, Pycrust and  Notepadplus to support writing python programs.

I really like Pycrust. It's written in Python, it's code base is
structured in a professional manner (IDLE you should be jealous!), and
it works well. However, it is dependent on WxPython; so that's right
out.

> IDLE is OK, but if a program failed inside IDLE, then I  might have
> to kill the old IDLE and restart IDLE again.

Yes, i've had to kill many frozen instances of IDLE. It gets
aggravating.

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#18082

There are Dr.Python, Pycrust and  Notepadplus to support writing python programs. 

IDLE is OK, but if a program failed inside IDLE, then I  might have 
to kill the old IDLE and restart IDLE again.

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#18100

On Dec 27, 11:26 pm, Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/27/2011 11:59 AM, K Richard Pixley wrote:> You'd do better to encourage eclipse, but setting that up isn't
> > trivial either.
>
> IIRC, all I had to do to set up PyDev was copy a URL to Eclipse's
> "Install New Software" wizard, and have Eclipse download and install it.
> Extra steps are needed if a different implementation of Python (e.g.
> Jython) is needed, but other than that, the user only needs to specify a
> couple options (e.g. Python grammar version) at project creation time.
> This assumes that Python is already installed, but why wouldn't it be?

There was a recent announcement about eclipse for python (pydev)
http://www.mail-archive.com/python-list@python.org/msg320434.html

It did not work for me -- got a backtrace.  I responded with that.
There was no further response.
Just mentioning that at least in some cases it does not 'just work.'

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#18041

On Dec 27, 11:59 am, K Richard Pixley <r...@noir.com> wrote:

> The problem is that IDLE is hard to set up.  (I've never managed it and
> I'm a well seasoned veteran).

Can you qualify that statement? Do you mean "difficult to set up on
certain OS's"? Because for windows there is no difficulty.

> And [IDLE is] pretty much only good for python,

Yes, i will agree on that! We could create snap-ins for other
languages, but, there are many good multi-language editors out there
already.

>  I'd
> expect.  You'd do better to encourage eclipse, but setting that up isn't
> trivial either.  You could create your own distribution of eclipse, but
> then you have that "only useful for python" problem again.

Same boat, different lake.

> If students are going to go anywhere else after this class, they're
> going to need to either be able to learn to switch editors or find an
> editor they can use more generally.

Agreed!

>  Everyone ends up writing some html
> eventually, for instance.

most folks write more than just HTML! Ruby, Lisp, Perl, C, Java, etc.

>  Either way requires climbing a learning curve
> that would be difficult to justify for a single class.

Yes, i must agree that IDLE does not scale. It's true that IDLE is
only good for Python. Could we make the IDLE usable for other
languages? Yes, but what good is that going to do? IDLE is already
slow due to Tkinter being slow, due to Python being slow... etc. I
must admit that IDLE is only useful for complete beginners, those who
code only in Python, or those who don't care about using a specific
Python IDE.

But that damn "batteries included" and CPFE keeps creeping up! What to
do, what to do?

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#18052

On 12/27/11 10:21 , Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Dec 27, 11:59 am, K Richard Pixley<r...@noir.com>  wrote:
>
>> The problem is that IDLE is hard to set up.  (I've never managed it and
>> I'm a well seasoned veteran).
>
> Can you qualify that statement? Do you mean "difficult to set up on
> certain OS's"? Because for windows there is no difficulty.

The distributed binaries haven't worked when I tried on any version of 
linux or macosx that I used.  Attempting to build from source also 
failed.  (I'm pretty much an anti-microsoft bigot).

>>   Everyone ends up writing some html
>> eventually, for instance.
>
> most folks write more than just HTML! Ruby, Lisp, Perl, C, Java, etc.

Dedicated computer folks and experimental tinkerers, yes, I concur.

But even casual computer users eventually want to write html, or compose 
for a wiki and get annoyed when their 3 hours of work in a web browser 
test field are lost because they changed pages.

--rich

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