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OSError [Errno 26] ?!?!

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  OSError [Errno 26] ?!?! Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-02 06:37 +0300
    Re: OSError [Errno 26] ?!?! Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-07-02 15:15 +1000
      Re: OSError [Errno 26] ?!?! Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-02 08:57 +0300
        Re: OSError [Errno 26] ?!?! Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-07-02 17:21 +1000
          Re: OSError [Errno 26] ?!?! Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-02 12:40 +0300
            Re: OSError [Errno 26] ?!?! Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 12:06 +0200
            Re: OSError [Errno 26] ?!?! Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-07-02 08:00 -0400
              Re: OSError [Errno 26] ?!?! Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-02 15:39 +0300
                Re: OSError [Errno 26] ?!?! Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 15:00 +0200
                Re: OSError [Errno 26] ?!?! Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 14:58 +0100
                  Re: OSError [Errno 26] ?!?! Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 00:19 +0000
                    Re: Persistence of CGI (was: OSError [Errno 26] ?!?!) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-07-02 19:57 -0500
                Python list code of conduct Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 16:51 +0100
                  Re: Python list code of conduct Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 00:42 +0000
                Re: Python list code of conduct Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 20:48 +0100
                Re: Python list code of conduct Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-07-02 15:33 -0500
                Re: Python list code of conduct Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> - 2013-07-02 13:52 -0700
                  Re: Python list code of conduct Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-07-02 19:46 -0400
                    Re: Python list code of conduct Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> - 2013-07-02 17:07 -0700
                    Re: Python list code of conduct Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-07-03 10:10 +1000
                    Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 00:52 +0000
                      Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct] Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 02:12 +0100
                      Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 18:02 +1000
                        Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-07-03 10:03 -0400
                          Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:15 +1000
                            Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-07-03 10:23 -0400
                              Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:52 +1000
                          Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-03 20:11 +0000
                            Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-07-03 16:31 -0400
                              Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-03 21:52 +0000
                          IPv6 deployment by ISPs (was: Bug reports) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-04 11:15 +1000
                    Re: Python list code of conduct Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-07-03 02:18 -0400
                      Re: Python list code of conduct Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-07-03 10:10 -0400
                        Re: Python list code of conduct Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 17:24 +0000
                Re: Python list code of conduct Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-03 08:39 +1000
                  Re: Python list code of conduct Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 06:18 +0000
                Re: Python list code of conduct Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-07-02 19:15 -0400
                  Re: Python list code of conduct Neil Hodgson <nhodgson@iinet.net.au> - 2013-07-03 19:50 +1000
                Re: Python list code of conduct Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-03 10:39 +1000
                  Re: Python list code of conduct rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 04:50 -0700
                    Re: Python list code of conduct Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 15:18 +0100

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#49684 — Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]

On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 19:46:13 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

> In article <mailman.4125.1372798337.3114.python-list@python.org>,
>  Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> wrote:
> 
>> If you find a bug in Python, don't send it to comp.lang.python; file a
>> bug report in the issue tracker.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with that one, at least not fully.  It's certainly
> true that you shouldn't expect anybody to do anything about a bug unless
> you open an issue.
> 
> On the other hand, I often find it useful to discuss things that I
> believe are bugs on c.l.p first.  Sometimes people will explain to me
> that I'm just doing it wrong.  Sometimes the discussion will end up
> with, "Yeah, that's a bug".  In either case, it serves as a good initial
> filter for whether I should file a bug or not, and the discussion is
> often educational.

Agreed strongly!

It frustrates and amuses me when I see newbies, who sometimes don't know 
enough Python to tell the difference between (1, 2, 3) and [1, 2, 3], 
jump straight to the conclusion that anything that doesn't work the way 
they expect must be a bug in Python.

If you are a beginner to a programming language, assume that anything 
that doesn't work the way you expect is a bug in YOUR code, or YOUR 
understanding, not in the language. 99.9999% of the time you will be 
correct. If you assume the opposite, you will nearly always just come 
across looking hopelessly naive at best, and at worst like an entitled, 
arrogant idiot.

A popular language like Python has been around for about 20 years. It is 
in daily use by tens of thousands of people around the world. What are 
the chances that you, in your first week of using Python, just happened 
to stumble across a bug that *nobody else in the world* has noticed?

So anyway, if you're going to make a fool of yourself by loudly 
proclaiming that your broken code is a bug in the language, at least do 
it here rather than waste the time of the people actually working on 
Python :-)



-- 
Steven

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#49687 — Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]

On 3 July 2013 01:52, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> If you are a beginner to a programming language, assume that anything
> that doesn't work the way you expect is a bug in YOUR code, or YOUR
> understanding, not in the language.

Not just beginners. Out of the hundreds of times where I've gone "this
*can't* make sense", I think only one -maybe two- was an actual bug in
Python.

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#49710 — Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> A popular language like Python has been around for about 20 years. It is
> in daily use by tens of thousands of people around the world. What are
> the chances that you, in your first week of using Python, just happened
> to stumble across a bug that *nobody else in the world* has noticed?

Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're
working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python
might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6
handling, or perhaps some weird platform that misbehaves, but they're
definitely not in lists and tuples treated normally.

ChrisA

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#49735 — Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]

In article <mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-list@python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

> Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're
> working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python
> might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6
> handling,

The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for 
about as long as Python.

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#49741 — Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]

On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-list@python.org>,
>  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're
>> working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python
>> might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6
>> handling,
>
> The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for
> about as long as Python.

Yeah, and yet so many ISPs simply don't support it (only one of the
Australian ISPs I've worked with does - Internode). So heaps of code
just doesn't get tested in an IPv6 environment. I don't know whether
there's anything in Python that would fail in that way, but there
might be; if someone starts writing a DNS server in Python and runs
into difficulties with AAAA records, then it actually might be a
library bug.

But the concept still applies: Extraordinary claims require
extraordinary evidence.[1] Before ranting loudly about how Python is
buggy, make absolutely sure you're right, and show the evidence.

ChrisA

[1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#idp5249360

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#49742 — Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]

In article <mailman.4170.1372860945.3114.python-list@python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> > In article <mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-list@python.org>,
> >  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're
> >> working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python
> >> might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6
> >> handling,
> >
> > The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for
> > about as long as Python.
> 
> Yeah, and yet so many ISPs simply don't support it (only one of the
> Australian ISPs I've worked with does - Internode).

My comment was not meant as a flame against Python, but as a flame 
against the whole frigging Internet industry for dragging their feet(*) 
on IPv6 rollout.

(*) It is difficult to walk with any gait other than foot-dragging when 
you are suffering from a severe case of cranio-rectal inversion.

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#49746 — Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]

On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 12:23 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.4170.1372860945.3114.python-list@python.org>,
>  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
>> > In article <mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-list@python.org>,
>> >  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're
>> >> working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python
>> >> might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6
>> >> handling,
>> >
>> > The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for
>> > about as long as Python.
>>
>> Yeah, and yet so many ISPs simply don't support it (only one of the
>> Australian ISPs I've worked with does - Internode).
>
> My comment was not meant as a flame against Python, but as a flame
> against the whole frigging Internet industry for dragging their feet(*)
> on IPv6 rollout.
>
> (*) It is difficult to walk with any gait other than foot-dragging when
> you are suffering from a severe case of cranio-rectal inversion.

Right. My examples of dark corners were non-specific too; I haven't
actually found any such corners in Python as I don't use it enough.
It's high time the world moved to IPv6 wholesale. Start leaning on
your ISPs to offer /64s (or /56s as Internode give) to all their
customers. Sooner or later they'll have to make it a priority. IPv4
depletion was back in early 2011 - that's two years since IANA gave
out the last blocks to the RIRs. Surely that means something?

At work, we took a stand on this, for what it's worth. We rent
dedicated servers from a number of hosting companies (giving us
geographically and topologically separate servers), and will not work
with anyone who doesn't give IPv6 as well as IPv4 addressing. But
since we currently put less than $100/month into servers, that's not
much of a stand :)

ChrisA

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#49772 — Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]

On 2013-07-03, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-list@python.org>,
>  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're
>> working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python
>> might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6
>> handling,
>
> The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for 
> about as long as Python.

I've recently added IPv6 support to some embedded firmware.  We had to
add it because various purchasing people (mostly government) have
non-negotiable feature checklists and "IPv6 support" is starting to
show up on the checklists. However, so far, none of the people
requiring IPv6 support actually have any plans to use IPv6 -- ever. 
I'm convinced we could put "IPv6 support" on the data sheets and
continue shipping IPv4-only stuff for many years to come, and all our
customers would be perfectly happy.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! My NOSE is NUMB!
                                  at               
                              gmail.com            

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#49773 — Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]

In article <kr20h3$omo$1@reader2.panix.com>,
 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 2013-07-03, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> > In article <mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-list@python.org>,
> >  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're
> >> working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python
> >> might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6
> >> handling,
> >
> > The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for 
> > about as long as Python.
> 
> I've recently added IPv6 support to some embedded firmware.  We had to
> add it because various purchasing people (mostly government) have
> non-negotiable feature checklists and "IPv6 support" is starting to
> show up on the checklists.

Yup.  I did one of those.    Hmmm, just found the powerpoint deck dated 
March 2006, so we probably started the project around September 2005.  
Same deal, we couldn't sell into government accounts unless we had IPv6.  
Have they actually used it?  I doubt it.

The really annoying thing about the project was I never got around to 
implementing rfc1924.

> However, so far, none of the people requiring IPv6 support actually 
> have any plans to use IPv6 -- ever.

What's known in the industry as "shelfware".

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#49774 — Re: Bug reports [was Re: Python list code of conduct]

On 2013-07-03, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <kr20h3$omo$1@reader2.panix.com>,
>  Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2013-07-03, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
>> > In article <mailman.4153.1372838561.3114.python-list@python.org>,
>> >  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Of course, it's possible for there to be dark corners. But if you're
>> >> working with those, you know it full well. The dark corners of Python
>> >> might be in some of its more obscure modules, or maybe in IPv6
>> >> handling,
>> >
>> > The sad thing about this statement is that IPv6 has been around for 
>> > about as long as Python.
>> 
>> I've recently added IPv6 support to some embedded firmware.  We had to
>> add it because various purchasing people (mostly government) have
>> non-negotiable feature checklists and "IPv6 support" is starting to
>> show up on the checklists.
>
> Yup.  I did one of those.    Hmmm, just found the powerpoint deck dated 
> March 2006, so we probably started the project around September 2005.  
> Same deal, we couldn't sell into government accounts unless we had IPv6.  
> Have they actually used it?  I doubt it.
>
> The really annoying thing about the project was I never got around to 
> implementing rfc1924.

Thankfully, the network library for our RTOS had support functions to
handle rfc1924.  Otherwise I would have had to do it myself because
there's no way I could have made it through the project having to read
and type full-length IPv6 addresses the whole time.

>> However, so far, none of the people requiring IPv6 support actually 
>> have any plans to use IPv6 -- ever.
>
> What's known in the industry as "shelfware".

Yep.  99.9% of the time, our products are used on small, isolated
industrial networks that have little or no internet connectivity.  The
product line started out when a lot of customers weren't even using
IPv4 yet. We still have customers who use our products with all IP
support disabled (though these days it's always on networks that
have other IP traffic).

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! On the road, ZIPPY
                                  at               is a pinhead without a
                              gmail.com            purpose, but never without
                                                   a POINT.

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#49791 — IPv6 deployment by ISPs (was: Bug reports)

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:

> Yeah, and yet so many ISPs simply don't support it [IPv6] (only one of
> the Australian ISPs I've worked with does - Internode).

Internode was the first in Australia, yes. Telstra supports IPv6, but
only for enterprise/government customers.

Wikipedia has a list of IPv6 deployment status by country
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6_deployment#Deployment_by_country>.

-- 
 \         “How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have |
  `\                        some hope of making progress.” —Niels Bohr |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#49705 — Re: Python list code of conduct

On 7/2/2013 7:46 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.4125.1372798337.3114.python-list@python.org>,
>   Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> wrote:
>
>> If you find a bug in Python, don't send it to comp.lang.python; file
>> a bug report in the issue tracker.

I would revise this to "If you are have really found a bug in Python..."
How does a newbie know?

> I'm not sure I agree with that one, at least not fully.  It's certainly
> true that you shouldn't expect anybody to do anything about a bug unless
> you open an issue.
>
> On the other hand, I often find it useful to discuss things that I
> believe are bugs on c.l.p first.  Sometimes people will explain to me
> that I'm just doing it wrong.  Sometimes the discussion will end up
> with, "Yeah, that's a bug".

usually followed by "File a tracker issue" or "I opened an tracker issue 
for this." (I have done that several times, though I sometimes prefer a 
person learn how to do it themselves.)

 >   In either case, it serves as a good initial
> filter for whether I should file a bug or not, and the discussion is
> often educational.

Ask here first.
With a subject line that says 'I think ...' or "Problem with ...'
Advantages:

1. At least half the bugs newbies report are not. The tracker does not 
need the extra clutter.
2. Filing a tracker issue sometimes creates a 'mental investment' in the 
mis-perception, which leads to resentment upon explanation.
3. There are lots of people here ready to help and answer questions.
Any sensible question usually gets multiple responses, usually within a 
few hours or a day. (Invalid tracker reports may sit for days and get 
one short response.)
4. Explanations posted here benefit lots of people, rather than just 1.
5. A question posted here may elicit essential information, like which 
systems or which versions have the problem.
6. If you make an informed post to the tracker backed up by at least 
opinion, at least one tracker responder be in a better mode when responding.

--
Terry Jan Reedy

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#49738 — Re: Python list code of conduct

In article <mailman.4148.1372832343.3114.python-list@python.org>,
 Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:

> 6. If you make an informed post to the tracker backed up by at least 
> opinion, at least one tracker responder be in a better mode when responding.

What I generally do is summarize the problem in the tracker, but also 
include a link to the google groups archive of the mailing list thread.  
Then, if anybody wants to see the whole background discussion, it's easy 
to find.

The most common outcome, for me at least, is that I end up opening a bug 
against the docs, because they didn't do a good job of explaining how 
something is supposed to work.

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#49766 — Re: Python list code of conduct

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 10:10:17 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

> In article <mailman.4148.1372832343.3114.python-list@python.org>,
>  Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
> 
>> 6. If you make an informed post to the tracker backed up by at least
>> opinion, at least one tracker responder be in a better mode when
>> responding.
> 
> What I generally do is summarize the problem in the tracker, but also
> include a link to the google groups archive of the mailing list thread.
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Please don't. Link to the actual mailing list thread instead:

http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

This is the canonical archive for the list, and doesn't involve the 
atrocious Google Groups interface.


-- 
Steven

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#49664 — Re: Python list code of conduct

Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> writes:

> It probably isn't the best time to start this post but I was
> wondering...

An excellent time to raise this, in my opinion. Thank you for doing so.

> Does this list have a code of conduct or a netiqeutte (sp?)
> statement/requirement? 

This forum (both a Usenet newsgroup and a mailing list) is part of the
Python community. So the “Python Community Code of Conduct” applies.

    <URL:http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/>

That was formed by the Python community and adopted by our gracious
hosts, the Python Software Foundation, who provide this forum for our
use.

> The reason I ask is that it seems to me that if we (the current
> membership of the list) could agree to a set of preferred/required
> behaviours we would at least have a framework by which to measure
> unwelcome posts.

I welcome use of the above code of conduct to guide social norms in this
community.

> And, more importantly, to guide newcomers in understanding that we are
> enthusiasts who choose to discuss Python and *voluntarily* help solve
> problems with Python for the less experienced members.

Amen.

-- 
 \      “If sharing a thing in no way diminishes it, it is not rightly |
  `\                      owned if it is not shared.” —Saint Augustine |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#49704 — Re: Python list code of conduct

On Wed, 03 Jul 2013 08:39:59 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:

> Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> writes:

>> Does this list have a code of conduct or a netiqeutte (sp?)
>> statement/requirement?
>
> This forum (both a Usenet newsgroup and a mailing list) is part of the
> Python community. So the “Python Community Code of Conduct” applies.
>
>     <URL:http://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/>

It certainly does not apply. Even putting aside the practical 
impossibility of enforcing it on an unmoderated mailing list/news group, 
the Code of Conduct needs to be adopted by each community group that 
chooses to do so. The Python Software Foundation (PSF) has approved the
CoC, but it is only *suggested* that Python-related communities adopt it, 
it is not mandatory. Nor could it be mandatory -- the PSF has no power to 
tell arbitrary Python groups how to run their community. (Although in 
principle it could choose to withhold funding from those that do not.)

The PSF blog post introducing this makes it clear that the PSF 
*encourages* community groups to adopt this CoC, but that is all:

[quote]
The PSF supports and advocates for the use of the CoC throughout the 
community, but without adoption by specific areas, the CoC is merely
a document that the Foundation is supportive of. The way it’s useful 
is that an area of the community can adopt the CoC and use it as a
guideline for participation. IT COULD BE adopted by mailing lists,
IRC channels, the bug tracker, user groups, sprints, and more.

For example, a mailing list COULD SAY that their membership should adhere 
to the CoC.  [emphasis added]
[end quote]

http://pyfound.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/announcing-code-of-conduct-for-use-by.html

To my knowledge, only two groups have adopted this so far: the PSF itself 
have adopted it for their internal (and private) mailing lists), and the 
python-ideas mailing list, whose two moderators adopted it without 
consultation with the mailing list subscribers, not that I'm bitter or 
anything.


> That was formed by the Python community and adopted by our gracious
> hosts, the Python Software Foundation, who provide this forum for our
> use.

The Code of Conduct was not formed by the Python community. It was formed 
by a small but influential subset of the Python community, the PSF. The 
greater Python community includes large numbers of people who are not 
members of the PSF, are not on this mailing list, and indeed may not be 
on any mailing list at all.

It is absurd to think that the PSF can unilaterally decide how (say) 
StackOverflow users are allowed to behave when they ask Python
questions. Now, if we were talking about the Python Secret Underground, 
which emphatically does not exist, then



-- 
Steven

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#49666 — Re: Python list code of conduct

On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 16:51:38 +0100, Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com>
declaimed the following:

>Erm,
>
>It probably isn't the best time to start this post but I was wondering...
>
>Does this list have a code of conduct or a netiqeutte (sp?) statement/requirement? 
>
>If not, should it? 
>
	One problem you will run into is that this "list" happens to be:

1)	a long established Usenet news group (comp.lang.python)
2)	a long established mailing list (masked as a news group on Gmane)
3)	something Google Groups makes available but trashes because GG thinks
everything is web page, so it turns stuff into HTML paragraphs on input
[based on EOL markers, which in proper NNTP would appear on each line],
then double spaces those "paragraphs" when sending back out to Usenet.

	comp.lang.python and the mailing list are cross-linked -- traffic on
one is reproduced on the other.

	So who would enforce any rules? I doubt it could be ported to a new (if
approval could even be obtained) comp.lang.python.mod(erated) so nothing
can be enforced on the comp.lang.python side; and what would you do with
Google Groups?

	Shutdown the Usenet<>mailing list gateway and moderate the mailing
list? In the process alienating all the comp.lang.python and GG users (or
vice versa for the mailing list users).

-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#49715 — Re: Python list code of conduct

Dennis Lee Bieber:

> 	So who would enforce any rules? I doubt it could be ported to a new (if
> approval could even be obtained) comp.lang.python.mod(erated) so nothing
> can be enforced on the comp.lang.python side; and what would you do with
> Google Groups?

    The current news group charter doesn't really have any rules. While 
it may be possible to recharter an existing news group, it would likely 
be simpler to just create a new one.


  CHARTER

Comp.lang.python is an unmoderated newsgroup which will serve
as a forum for discussing the Python computer language. The
group will serve both those who just program in Python and
those who work on developing the language. Topics that
may be discussed include:

- announcements of new versions of the language and
applications written in Python.

- discussion on the internals of the Python language.

- general information about the language.

- discussion on programming in Python.


http://www.python.org/search/hypermail/python-1994q1/0377.html

    Neil

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#49681 — Re: Python list code of conduct

Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> So who would enforce any rules?

Ideally, this community is healthy enough for us to enforce the code of
conduct of our host, through social convention among us all.

-- 
 \        “I took a course in speed waiting. Now I can wait an hour in |
  `\                                 only ten minutes.” —Steven Wright |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#49720 — Re: Python list code of conduct

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 6:09:35 AM UTC+5:30, Ben Finney wrote:
> Dennis Lee Bieber writes:
> 
> > So who would enforce any rules?
> 
> Ideally, this community is healthy enough for us to enforce the code of
> conduct of our host, through social convention among us all.

Thanks Ben for that.
Lets not stymie Steve Simmons original suggestion for a CoC by making it into a formal CoC and then saying its impossible.

There is a good deal of informal enforcement already. Consider eg:
- Mark's footnote reminding about GG problems and their solutions <link>
- Steven's brusque 'cut-the-crap' type responses
- Your own prompt STOPs to racist/sexist etc posts
etc

So we may take and welcome Steve Simmons' call to expand that list.
I certainly welcome the suggestion.

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