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Python education survey

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  Python education survey Raymond Hettinger <raymond.hettinger@gmail.com> - 2011-12-19 19:51 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 17:27 +1100
    Re: Python education survey Luka Dornhecker <luka.dornhecker@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-19 23:20 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 02:32 -0500
    Re: Python education survey Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2011-12-20 09:14 +0100
      Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 03:02 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 06:45 -0800
        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 02:51 +1100
    Re: Python education survey Andrea Crotti <andrea.crotti.0@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 10:58 +0000
      Re: Python education survey Carl Smith <carl.input@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 21:59 -0800
        Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 03:41 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 04:53 +1100
            Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 11:45 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 12:04 -0800
                Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 13:44 -0800
                  Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 17:56 -0800
                    Re: Python education survey Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-12-27 20:21 -0600
                      Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 18:42 -0800
                        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 14:54 +1100
                        Re: Python education survey Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-28 06:59 +0000
                          Re: Python education survey rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 23:49 -0800
                          Re: Python education survey Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-12-31 16:27 +0000
                            Re: Python education survey Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-12-31 13:23 -0500
                              Re: Python education survey Alexander Kapps <alex.kapps@web.de> - 2011-12-31 20:06 +0100
                                Re: Python education survey Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-01-01 02:36 +0000
                                  Re: Python education survey Alexander Kapps <alex.kapps@web.de> - 2012-01-01 05:53 +0100
                                    Re: Python education survey Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-01-02 17:02 +0000
                              Re: Python education survey Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-12-31 23:44 -0600
                        Re: Python education survey Dominic Binks <dbinks@codeaurora.org> - 2011-12-31 21:12 -0800
                          Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-01-02 21:27 -0800
                            Re: Python education survey Dominic Binks <dbinks@codeaurora.org> - 2012-01-02 22:03 -0800
                            Re: Python education survey Evan Driscoll <edriscoll@wisc.edu> - 2012-01-03 01:31 -0500
                            Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2012-01-03 04:33 -0800
                              Re: Python education survey Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-01-04 01:30 +0000
                        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-01-01 16:50 +1100
                    Re: Python education survey Eelco <hoogendoorn.eelco@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 04:25 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Miki Tebeka <miki.tebeka@gmail.com> - 2011-12-20 10:07 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Fernando Perez <fperez.net@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 01:40 +0000
    Re: Python education survey Ashton Fagg <ashton@fagg.id.au> - 2011-12-21 12:06 +1000
      Re: Python education survey Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-12-20 21:34 -0500
        Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 13:44 +1100
        Re: Python education survey Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2011-12-21 11:57 -0500
          Re: Python education survey Raymond Hettinger <raymond.hettinger@gmail.com> - 2011-12-22 12:01 -0800
          Re: Python education survey rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-22 19:05 -0800
    Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-25 09:44 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 14:27 +1100
        Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 06:52 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 11:11 -0500
            Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 09:27 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-12-26 18:04 +0000
            Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 10:32 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 06:56 +1100
      Re: Python education survey Carl Smith <carl.input@gmail.com> - 2011-12-26 22:14 -0800
        Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 08:37 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 04:50 +1100
            Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 10:11 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2011-12-28 08:13 +1100
              Re: Python education survey Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 14:31 -0700
    Re: Python education survey Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2011-12-25 22:02 -0800
    Re: Python education survey K Richard Pixley <rich@noir.com> - 2011-12-27 09:59 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 12:26 -0600
        Re: Python education survey K Richard Pixley <rich@noir.com> - 2011-12-27 14:04 -0800
          Re: Python education survey Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 16:57 -0600
            Re: Python education survey 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-27 17:21 -0800
              Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 18:01 -0800
            Re: Python education survey 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2011-12-27 17:21 -0800
        Re: Python education survey rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 21:50 -0800
      Re: Python education survey Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2011-12-27 10:21 -0800
        Re: Python education survey K Richard Pixley <rich@noir.com> - 2011-12-27 12:39 -0800

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#17641

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> As for line numbers, for working alone, I don't see much point.  But for
> any kind of interaction with other people, it's essential.  It's just SO
> much easier to say, "line 417" as opposed to "OK, scroll up a couple
> more lines, no, no, not that far, go down a little.  There!  See that
> print statement, now go down three lines below that, ..."  By the time
> the two of you are on the same page about which line of code you're
> talking about, you will have forgotten what you wanted to say.

Ctrl-G in many editors will let you GOTO (sorry, I'll try to keep this
PG-13) a specific line by number. Extremely handy, especially when
you're debugging across computers - the error message comes up on your
test computer and cites the line number, and you jump to it on your
dev easily.

ChrisA

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#17676

+1 for IPython/%edit using the simplest editor that supports syntax
highlighting and line numbers.  I have found that
Exploring/Prototyping in the interpreter has the highest ROI of
anything I teach people.

Nathan

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#17747

On Dec 21, 9:57 am, Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> +1 for IPython/%edit using the simplest editor that supports syntax
> highlighting and line numbers.  I have found that
> Exploring/Prototyping in the interpreter has the highest ROI of
> anything I teach people.

Thank you Nathan and all the other respondents for your thoughtful
answers.


Raymond

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#17769

On Dec 21, 9:57 pm, Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> +1 for IPython/%edit using the simplest editor that supports syntax
> highlighting and line numbers.  I have found that
> Exploring/Prototyping in the interpreter has the highest ROI of
> anything I teach people.
>
> Nathan

It seems to me that we are not distinguishing different 'scales'.
For example:
In principle one can use any unit to measure length. In practice it is
inconvenient to use kilometers when microns or angstroms are more
appropriate.

Clearly there is a need, when learning a language, to explore the
basics with a minimum of interference from the environment ie
introspection features of python with as little extra interference as
possible.

As a teacher I generally demonstrate with python-mode in emacs. I
guess IDLE, ipython etc should be equivalent.  But then someone in the
class comes with a 'question' of this sort:

We have this project in eclipse+python.
But the path is not being searched properly.
etc

Now for me eclipse is more of pizazz on the outside and nightmare on
the inside. [Or maybe its just that I am particularly bad at solving
these kinds of problems]. Nevertheless this scale or granularity of
work is also important in python education and is sorely
underrepresented.

Here are some of my earlier attempts to canvass for this orientation:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2011-May/1271749.html

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2011-November/1283634.html

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#17926

On Dec 19, 9:51 pm, Raymond Hettinger <raymond.hettin...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
> If not, what is the tool of choice?

I believe IDLE has the potential to be a very useful teaching tool and
even in it's current abysmal state, i find it to be quite useful.

> Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be
> running Windows, Linux, or Macs.  Ideally, the tool or IDE will be
> easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated
> with a particular version of Python etc).

Why install an IDE when IDLE is already there? Oh, yes, IDLE SUCKS. I
know that already. But this revelation begs the question... Why has
this community allowed IDLE to rot? Why has guido NOT started a public
discussion on the matter?

> Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's
> free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization
> and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab
> completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has
> an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code
> (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B).

Yes, IDLE has all the basic tools anyone would need. Some people
complain about a debugger, but i never use a debugger anyway. I feel
debuggers just wreaken your debugging skills.

> On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite
> Tcl/Tk support;

And who's fault is that?

> some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk
> so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes
> just freezes for no reason.

And who's fault is that?

>  [IDLE] also doesn't have an easy way to
> specify the startup directory.

Are you kidding me? That could be fixed so easily!

> If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
> what IDE or editor do you recommend?

IDLE, of course. But NOT in its current state.

Why would myself (or anyone) go to the trouble of downloading third
party IDEs when IDLE is just waiting there for us to use? I for one,
like to use tools that have open source code.  And what is a better
Python IDE than a Python IDE written in PYTHON? I ask ya?

Also, what is the purpose of this thread Raymond? Are you (and others)
considering removing IDLE from the source distro?

You know. Many folks in this community have known for a long time how
much i love IDLE, but at the same time how much i loath it's atrocious
code base. I also know for a fact, that many "movers and shakers"
within this community simultaneously use IDLE, and want to see IDLE
code improved. However. None of these fine folks have taken the time
to contact me privately so we can discuss such an evolution. Why is
that? It boggles the mind really.

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#17942

On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why install an IDE when IDLE is already there? Oh, yes, IDLE SUCKS. I
> know that already. But this revelation begs the question... Why has
> this community allowed IDLE to rot? Why has guido NOT started a public
> discussion on the matter?

Conversely, why write an IDE into IDLE when perfectly-good IDEs
already exist? I don't use IDLE for development per se; it's for
interactive Python execution, but not editing of source files.

ChrisA

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#17959

On Dec 25, 9:27 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Rick Johnson
> > [...]
> Conversely, why write an IDE into IDLE when perfectly-good IDEs
> already exist? I don't use IDLE for development per se; it's for
> interactive Python execution, but not editing of source files.

I believe the answer is two fold:

1. Including an IDE like IDLE into the Python distro helps noobs to
get started quickly without needing to traverse a gauntlet of unknown
IDEs on their own. If later they find something that they feel is more
appropriate; so be it.

2. (and most important to me... IDLE is written in Python using the
Tkinter GUI (which ships with python also). Therefore, the source code
for IDLE can be a GREAT teaching resource for how to write
professional Tkinter applications. I KNOW THE CURRENT SOURCE SUCKS!
However, we could change that.

So, with those points being covered, i believe IDLE is very important
to the Python community and could be useful to more people IF we clean
it up a bit. It's really a great little IDE with even greater
potential. If Guido would just say something (or at least some of the
top Pythionistas (Hettinger i am looking at you!)) this community
might work together to fix this problem.

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#17962

On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 25, 9:27 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Rick Johnson
>> > [...]
>> Conversely, why write an IDE into IDLE when perfectly-good IDEs
>> already exist? I don't use IDLE for development per se; it's for
>> interactive Python execution, but not editing of source files.
>
> I believe the answer is two fold:
>
> 1. Including an IDE like IDLE into the Python distro helps noobs to
> get started quickly without needing to traverse a gauntlet of unknown
> IDEs on their own. If later they find something that they feel is more
> appropriate; so be it.
>
> 2. (and most important to me... IDLE is written in Python using the
> Tkinter GUI (which ships with python also). Therefore, the source code
> for IDLE can be a GREAT teaching resource for how to write
> professional Tkinter applications. I KNOW THE CURRENT SOURCE SUCKS!
> However, we could change that.
>
> So, with those points being covered, i believe IDLE is very important
> to the Python community and could be useful to more people IF we clean
> it up a bit. It's really a great little IDE with even greater
> potential. If Guido would just say something (or at least some of the
> top Pythionistas (Hettinger i am looking at you!)) this community
> might work together to fix this problem.

Not everyone who has Python installed wants to learn the language.  I
do think that a "learning" distro that has a lot of core tools
pre-installed, and ships with some tutorials, would be a decent idea.
Sort of like Enthought for new users :)  I don't feel IDLE is worth
salvaging though.

Nathan

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#17964

On Dec 26, 10:11 am, Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.r...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Rick Johnson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 25, 9:27 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 4:44 AM, Rick Johnson
> >> > [...]
> >> Conversely, why write an IDE into IDLE when perfectly-good IDEs
> >> already exist? I don't use IDLE for development per se; it's for
> >> interactive Python execution, but not editing of source files.
>
> > I believe the answer is two fold:
>
> > 1. Including an IDE like IDLE into the Python distro helps noobs to
> > get started quickly without needing to traverse a gauntlet of unknown
> > IDEs on their own. If later they find something that they feel is more
> > appropriate; so be it.
>
> > 2. (and most important to me... IDLE is written in Python using the
> > Tkinter GUI (which ships with python also). Therefore, the source code
> > for IDLE can be a GREAT teaching resource for how to write
> > professional Tkinter applications. I KNOW THE CURRENT SOURCE SUCKS!
> > However, we could change that.
>
> > So, with those points being covered, i believe IDLE is very important
> > to the Python community and could be useful to more people IF we clean
> > it up a bit. It's really a great little IDE with even greater
> > potential. If Guido would just say something (or at least some of the
> > top Pythionistas (Hettinger i am looking at you!)) this community
> > might work together to fix this problem.
>
> Not everyone who has Python installed wants to learn the language.

I'll admit you make a very valid point. But since "they" are not
familiar with the language, what they don't know cannot hurt them.
Although i do see a need to keep the core distro small. If we remove
IDLE then we face the next big question... Should we remove Tkinter?

> I
> do think that a "learning" distro that has a lot of core tools
> pre-installed, and ships with some tutorials, would be a decent idea.
> Sort of like Enthought for new users :)

This is the kind of inventiveness i have been looking for in this
group. I think this is a great idea!

>  I don't feel IDLE is worth salvaging though.

Agreed. Not in it's current state anyway.

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#17966

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 06:52:03 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote:

> If Guido would just say something (or at least some of the top
> Pythionistas (Hettinger i am looking at you!)) this community might work
> together to fix this problem.

The sheer cluelessness displayed here about open source is painful.

If Guido would "just say something", this community would yawn. He's not 
the boss of us. Python development is an all-volunteer effort. "The 
community" works on projects that we find interesting, or that we need 
ourselves, not just because Guido "says something" about it -- and 
certainly not projects that you demand we work on.

Instead of demanding that GvR order us to work on IDLE, put your money 
where your mouth is, Rick, and stop being a blow-hard. You've been 
nagging us about IDLE for long enough -- what is it now, two years? 
Three? I haven't been counting, but it feels like geological ages.

Start a project to fix IDLE. There is plenty of free hosting on the 
Internet for open source projects, like GitHub and Google Code Hosting. 
Track some bugs. Plan some concrete enhancements. Write some actual code. 
Demonstrate actual effort, and you may attract others who care. 
Otherwise, you're wasting our time.


-- 
Steven

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#17968

On Dec 26, 12:04 pm, Steven D'Aprano <steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:

> If Guido would "just say something", this community would yawn. He's not
> the boss of us. Python development is an all-volunteer effort. "The
> community" works on projects that we find interesting, or that we need
> ourselves, not just because Guido "says something" about it

Believe it or not Steven, all communities need leadership. Just
because you are a rebel and don't like anyone trumping your opinions
does mean that the majority of people here don't need (or want for
that mater) some direction.Communities work best when leaders lead and
workers work. And "leader" does not always mean a single person. NO.

In the best communities leadership roles are dynamic. For example: In
such a diverse field as programming language design, no ONE person can
lead all the time! We need people to step forth who are competent in
the various areas of expertise. Someone who is really knowledgeable
writing code for Linux may not be as knowledgeable writing code for
windows. Some will be better at writing efficient algorithmic code and
others may be better at documentation. etc,etc...

HOWEVER

Even IF we adopt the intelligent paradigm of dynamic leadership, we
still need a small group (or at least) one very intelligent person to
bind the process together. Guido van Rossum IS that person. That is
why i call for him to get more involved. Of course i don't expect him
to write code. But at least he could be more involved in this
community. AND PYDEV IS NOT THE ONLY MAILING LIST IN THIS FREAKING
COMMUNITY!

He needs to step out from behind the coattails of his dev group and be
a real leader. He needs to make his opinion known about Tkinter, IDLE,
and also, the drastic changes that will need to be implemented in
Python 4000. How can HE expect a true FLOSS community to move forward
when SO many are just blatantly ignored? HOW?

> -- and
> certainly not projects that you demand we work on.

I am NOT demanding that people WORK on anything Steven. I am ASKING
for people to get more involved! Just open your mouth and state your
opinion (and not just troll all the time!). But as long as Guido and
the other members of pydev refuse to acknowledge the existence of
c.l.p, we will forever be a stagnate community.

> Instead of demanding that GvR order us to work on IDLE, put your money
> where your mouth is, Rick, and stop being a blow-hard. You've been
> nagging us about IDLE for long enough -- what is it now, two years?
> Three? I haven't been counting, but it feels like geological ages.
>
> Start a project to fix IDLE. There is plenty of free hosting on the
> Internet for open source projects, like GitHub and Google Code Hosting.
> Track some bugs. Plan some concrete enhancements. Write some actual code.
> Demonstrate actual effort, and you may attract others who care.
> Otherwise, you're wasting our time.

I will do this, as soon as the "leaders" start to lead. Only a fool
would invest time to make a module or package "stdlib ready" without
getting the input of his fellow brethren first. Sounds like a recipe
for disaster to me. Why has Guido not, at the very least, contacted me
privately? He could remain anonymous.

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#17973

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why has Guido not, at the very least, contacted me
> privately? He could remain anonymous.

And how would you know if he did contact you anonymously?

As to your demand that one of the "top Pythionistas" [sic] say
something? I declare hereby that I am, in fact, a top Pythonista. [1]

Rick, go fork Python onto Bitbucket. Call it Python 4000 if you like,
or just "Python with a better IDLE" or whatever. Go! Shoo! Code!

There. A top Pythonista has spoken. And if the above satisfy you not,
I actually said it out loud too, just to be sure. That's how important
you are to The Python Community (capital letters and all).

ChrisA


[1] Start here and follow the thread. I've done all of them. (Actually
I probably haven't, and I haven't even read the whole thread, which
just came up when I googled 'pythonista', but I defy you to prove me
lying.) http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2003-June/207114.html

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#18012

On Dec 25, 5:44 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 19, 9:51 pm, Raymond Hettinger <raymond.hettin...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
> > If not, what is the tool of choice?
>
> I believe IDLE has the potential to be a very useful teaching tool and
> even in it's current abysmal state, i find it to be quite useful.
>
> > Students may not be experienced with the command-line and may be
> > running Windows, Linux, or Macs.  Ideally, the tool or IDE will be
> > easy to install and configure (startup directory, path, associated
> > with a particular version of Python etc).
>
> Why install an IDE when IDLE is already there? Oh, yes, IDLE SUCKS. I
> know that already. But this revelation begs the question... Why has
> this community allowed IDLE to rot? Why has guido NOT started a public
> discussion on the matter?
>
> > Though an Emacs user myself, I've been teaching with IDLE because it's
> > free; it runs on multiple OSes, it has tooltips and code colorization
> > and easy indent/dedent/comment/uncomment commands, it has tab
> > completion; it allows easy editing at the interactive prompt; it has
> > an easy run-script command (F5); it has direct access to source code
> > (File OpenModule) and a class browser (Cntl+B).
>
> Yes, IDLE has all the basic tools anyone would need. Some people
> complain about a debugger, but i never use a debugger anyway. I feel
> debuggers just wreaken your debugging skills.
>
> > On the downside, some python distros aren't built with the requisite
> > Tcl/Tk support;
>
> And who's fault is that?
>
> > some distros like the Mac OS ship with a broken Tcl/Tk
> > so users have to install a fix to that as well; and IDLE sometimes
> > just freezes for no reason.
>
> And who's fault is that?
>
> >  [IDLE] also doesn't have an easy way to
> > specify the startup directory.
>
> Are you kidding me? That could be fixed so easily!
>
> > If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
> > what IDE or editor do you recommend?
>
> IDLE, of course. But NOT in its current state.
>
> Why would myself (or anyone) go to the trouble of downloading third
> party IDEs when IDLE is just waiting there for us to use? I for one,
> like to use tools that have open source code.  And what is a better
> Python IDE than a Python IDE written in PYTHON? I ask ya?
>
> Also, what is the purpose of this thread Raymond? Are you (and others)
> considering removing IDLE from the source distro?
>
> You know. Many folks in this community have known for a long time how
> much i love IDLE, but at the same time how much i loath it's atrocious
> code base. I also know for a fact, that many "movers and shakers"
> within this community simultaneously use IDLE, and want to see IDLE
> code improved. However. None of these fine folks have taken the time
> to contact me privately so we can discuss such an evolution. Why is
> that? It boggles the mind really.

Do people seriously use IDLE? I thought it was just there for
scratchers, like turtle.

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#18026

On Dec 27, 12:14 am, Carl Smith <carl.in...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do people seriously use IDLE? I thought it was just there for
> scratchers, like turtle.

I know for a fact that many folks use IDLE, even some rather "well
known" folks around here. The fact is, more people use IDLE than admit
to using IDLE. Of course, out of respect, i will not mention their
names myself. Hopefully they will chime in..?

There is a stigma in this community towards IDLE. I am not sure
exactly how it started, or on what logic (or lack thereof) it is
based, but the stigma exists no doubt. I believe it may be just an
extension of the TCL/TK stigma (since IDLE is coded using Tkinter).

My logic is this:
 """ Including an IDE in the stdlib may have been a bad idea (although
i understand and support Guido's original vision for IDLE). But since
we do have it, we need to either MAINTAIN the package or REMOVE it. We
cannot just stick our heads in the sand and ignore the elephant in the
chicken coop. It's bad enough to bloat ANY stdlib with seldom used
modules, but i dare say, it's far worse to bloat a library with seldom
used modules that are poorly maintained! Every module in Python's
stdlib is a testament to the skill and professionalism of this
community as a whole. When a module looks or works badly, we ALL look
and work badly."""

It's no big secret to anyone in this community that both Tkinter and
IDLE are the red headed step children of Pythons stdlib. Very few
people speak kindly of either package. I believe GvR still believes in
the merits of both packages (psst: batteries included!) but he finds
himself at odds with the elite at pydev. Hmm, Maybe he DOES want to
remove them but fears loosing face...FYI: Guido IS is the original
author of both Tkinter and IDLE... it was HIS idea after all. However,
it is high time to re-ignite the original vision and form these
packages into something we can be proud of -- OR -- cut our losses and
remove them forever.

This indecisiveness, collective bickering, and lack of true leadership
is shameful.

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#18033

On 12/28/2011 03:37 AM, Rick Johnson wrote:
> My logic is this:
>   """ Including an IDE in the stdlib may have been a bad idea (although
> i understand and support Guido's original vision for IDLE). But since
> we do have it, we need to either MAINTAIN the package or REMOVE it. We
> cannot just stick our heads in the sand and ignore the elephant in the
> chicken coop. It's bad enough to bloat ANY stdlib with seldom used
> modules, but i dare say, it's far worse to bloat a library with seldom
> used modules that are poorly maintained! Every module in Python's
> stdlib is a testament to the skill and professionalism of this
> community as a whole. When a module looks or works badly, we ALL look
> and work badly."""

AFAICS, Python has a pretty good reputation even outside Python 
community. I haven't seen anyone looks at Python badly because of IDLE.

> It's no big secret to anyone in this community that both Tkinter and
> IDLE are the red headed step children of Pythons stdlib. Very few
> people speak kindly of either package. I believe GvR still believes in
> the merits of both packages (psst: batteries included!) but he finds
> himself at odds with the elite at pydev. Hmm, Maybe he DOES want to
> remove them but fears loosing face...FYI: Guido IS is the original
> author of both Tkinter and IDLE... it was HIS idea after all. However,
> it is high time to re-ignite the original vision and form these
> packages into something we can be proud of -- OR -- cut our losses and
> remove them forever.

I hope you're not attempting to put words into his mouth, what you think 
of Guido's ideas is not necessarily Guido's ideas.

In any case, IDLE is open source -- I don't know exactly what license 
it's under but I'd assume it's the same as Python -- and anyone in this 
list and outside this list -- including you -- can freely fork it and 
work on it to improve it. In case you haven't realised it, it is pretty 
much impossible for a large open source project to "die"; even if Guido 
decided to remove IDLE from the standard library, it's not unlikely that 
someone will fork it and maintain it as a third party application.

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#18039

On Dec 27, 11:50 am, Lie Ryan <lie.1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In case you haven't realised it, it is pretty
> much impossible for a large open source project to "die"; even if Guido
> decided to remove IDLE from the standard library

I don't remember stating that Python would die if IDLE was removed
(not sure if you misunderstood me or you're just making a general
statement???). My belief is that the atrocious state of IDLE and
Tkinter's code bases are making us look bad as a community. And i can
go either way on the issue; remove them both, or enrich them both.
Either way we improve on the current situation.  My point is that we
CANNOT just ignore the issue.

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#18053

On 12/28/2011 05:11 AM, Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Dec 27, 11:50 am, Lie Ryan<lie.1...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> In case you haven't realised it, it is pretty
>> much impossible for a large open source project to "die"; even if Guido
>> decided to remove IDLE from the standard library
>
> I don't remember stating that Python would die if IDLE was removed
> (not sure if you misunderstood me or you're just making a general
> statement???). My belief is that the atrocious state of IDLE and
> Tkinter's code bases are making us look bad as a community. And i can
> go either way on the issue; remove them both, or enrich them both.
> Either way we improve on the current situation.  My point is that we
> CANNOT just ignore the issue.

The point is, I didn't think it's such a pressing issue. I haven't seen 
anyone in or outside Python communities making their conclusion about 
Python based on IDLE.

In any case, removing IDLE without a much better replacement is pretty 
much out of the question. If people installed Python in vanilla Windows 
install, they would only have Notepad to edit their code.

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#18056

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 2:13 PM, Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> wrote:
> In any case, removing IDLE without a much better replacement is pretty much
> out of the question. If people installed Python in vanilla Windows install,
> they would only have Notepad to edit their code.

No no, Wordpad is much better for editing Python.  It even supports
(manual) syntax highlighting!

And of course for the console lovers there is MS-DOS Edit.

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#17951

Not a teacher here, but I'm curious why Komodo Edit never seems to get 
any love in the IDE debates... a free version for personal/non-profit 
use, pro versions for those that need the extra features, seems to work 
fairly well but then again I'm probably not the best judge...

Thanks,

Monte

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#18035

On 12/19/11 19:51 , Raymond Hettinger wrote:
> Do you use IDLE when teaching Python?
> If not, what is the tool of choice?

> If your goal is to quickly get new users up and running in Python,
> what IDE or editor do you recommend?

I would:

a) let the students pick their own editor.
b) encourage emacs and use emacs as a reference editor.

The problem is that IDLE is hard to set up.  (I've never managed it and 
I'm a well seasoned veteran).  And pretty much only good for python, I'd 
expect.  You'd do better to encourage eclipse, but setting that up isn't 
trivial either.  You could create your own distribution of eclipse, but 
then you have that "only useful for python" problem again.

If students are going to go anywhere else after this class, they're 
going to need to either be able to learn to switch editors or find an 
editor they can use more generally.  Everyone ends up writing some html 
eventually, for instance.  Either way requires climbing a learning curve 
that would be difficult to justify for a single class.

OTOH, there are binary emacs distributions for all systems you've 
mentioned.  And they work.

I'm an antimicrosoft bigot, but I think my answer is probably the same 
regardless of whether we know the OS the students will be using or not.

--rich

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