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Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list

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  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-29 18:00 +0100
    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-30 20:24 +0300
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 20:58 +0100
        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-30 23:14 +0300
          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 21:36 +0100
          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 08:23 +0200
            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 10:52 +0300
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 10:54 +0200
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 12:05 +0300
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 11:32 +0200
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 12:37 +0300
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 14:28 +0200
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 16:22 +0300
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 12:44 +1000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 10:31 +0100
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 12:46 +0300
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 14:44 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 11:07 +0100
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 12:43 +0000
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 15:08 +0200
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 15:33 +0000
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 21:18 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 23:14 +0000
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 20:32 +0100
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 09:25 +0200
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 16:28 +0300
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 08:45 -0500
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 15:34 +0000
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 08:49 -0700
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 17:56 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 20:15 +0300
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 18:26 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 11:29 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 20:16 +0100
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 12:29 -0700
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 21:12 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 20:28 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 09:22 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 10:34 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 14:01 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 14:40 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 06:48 -0700
                          OT Plague [was Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 02:37 +0000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-03 08:34 +1000
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-02 17:30 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 01:24 +0000
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 10:08 -0700
                              Whatever happened to the Effbot? [was Re: python adds an etc] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 11:16 +1000
                                Re: Whatever happened to the Effbot? [was Re: python adds an etc] Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-07-03 20:31 -0500
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-03 11:21 +0200
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 10:11 -0700
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-04 14:09 +0200
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-05 15:40 -0700
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-08 10:19 +0200
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 19:45 +1000
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 13:00 +0300
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list feedthetroll@gmx.de - 2013-07-03 07:12 -0700
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 16:21 +0100
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 10:00 -0700
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list feedthetroll@gmx.de - 2013-07-04 01:24 -0700
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 10:01 -0700
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 11:08 -0700
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 18:29 +0000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 12:18 -0700
                                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 03:08 +0000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-04 10:53 +1000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 02:08 +0100
                                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 20:07 -0700
                                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 22:44 -0700
                                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-04 08:57 +0300
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list feedthetroll@gmx.de - 2013-07-04 01:50 -0700
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-05 15:42 -0700
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:44 +1000
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 18:36 +0300
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 01:44 +1000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 19:47 +0300
                                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 02:53 +1000
                                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 20:07 +0300
                                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 03:23 +1000
                                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 20:50 +0300
                                              Fwd: Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-04 13:06 +0300
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 17:42 +0100
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 20:10 +0300
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 05:31 -0700
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:37 +1000
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-03 12:04 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 00:18 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-02 18:21 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:12 +0100
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 18:56 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:40 +0100
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-04 13:19 +0200
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 02:58 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-03 10:36 +1000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 01:51 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-03 12:01 +0200
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 19:27 +0300
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 19:36 +0300
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 22:57 +0100
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 23:13 +0100
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 08:37 +0200
        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 10:55 +0300
          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 10:56 +0200
            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-07-01 14:01 +0000
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 08:00 -0700
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-01 15:06 +0000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 21:34 -0700
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 06:32 +0100
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-02 07:14 +0000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-07-02 18:59 -0400
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-07-02 19:06 +0000
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 19:33 +0300
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 20:42 +0200
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 22:12 +0000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 09:55 +0200
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 17:59 +1000
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 23:17 +0000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 08:54 +0200
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 01:43 -0600
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 10:16 +0200
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 12:53 +0000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 00:22 +0000

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#49639

On 2 July 2013 13:01, Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> Op 02-07-13 11:34, Joshua Landau schreef:
>
>> No it does not. I'd give you more of a counter but I actually have no
>> idea how you came up with that.
> Please answer the following question. If someone behaved incompetently,
> how can I clearly state that fact when "incompetently" is seen as an
> insult and insults don't belong on the list?

There is not ever a place on this list where you will need to call
someone incompetent. You can explain to someone that they do not
understand what they are doing, but when you attack the character of
the person it is no longer acceptable.

>>>>> Well nobody is representing the list. So where does that leave us?
>>>> I am afraid you are wrong. The body of people of this list, as a
>>>> whole, represent this list. As a whole, as I have shown, they resent
>>>> your pseudo-insults. rusi is an exception, who only seems to resent
>>>> Nikos's, but rusi has not fallen to pseudo-insults himself (herself?).
>>> You have shown no such thing. You have shown some people who resent
>>> my speaking clearly.
>> I'd prefer you use my less ambiguous term "pseudo-insults". If you'd
>> prefer, you can rename it. Using weasel-words helps nobody.
>>
>> I have no problem with you "speaking clearly" in a literal sense. I
>> have a problem with your pseudo-insults. If you want to use "speaking
>> clearly" to mean "pseudo-insult", you're going to have to point out
>> that you're using words how they're not literally intended.
> What if using pseudo-insults was the most clear way to describe the
> situation. Should I start looking for eufenisms?

No. In that case if you wish to describe the situation you would have
to do with less clear means. I'm sure the people on this list would
understand what you mean even if you left out the judgementalism. In
this case in particular, many other people have "described the
situation" perfectly adequately without resorting to blatant insults
on Nikos.

But how is a statement as blatantly inhumane as "Should we
particularly care about Nikos's feelings?" a needed action -- it
certainly isn't a good way of describing the situation.

>>> But for your ease of mind I'll make it clear I have no intention
>>> of haunting Nikos or of keeping him the subject of discussion.
>>> But should I stumble on a conversation in which his past behaviour
>>> is framed as him being innocentltly asking questions, I will point
>>> of what bullshit that is.
>> Fair enough. If that's all you did in this thread, then I wouldn't care.
>>
>> But once again you seem to have missed the point that I and others
>> keep reiterating: pseudo-insults have no place on this list.
>>
>>
>> (If you need a reminder, pseudo-insults are just what other people
>> term "insults". You can change the name if you see fit.)
> So what are the non-insulting terms for
>
> incompentent, (starting a webservice in a language you're a newby in,
> making changes on the life server so that any typo you make, can take
> your site out the air),

You just did it.

> inconsiderate (behave annoyingly in multiple ways and despite poeple pointing
> it out multiple times, mostly continue in the same manner, without taking
> their remarks into account) and

I do not tend to consider "inconsiderate" inappropriate if said in
earnest, as it is defensive. I'd still rather you talked about actions
as inconsiderate rather than people, but baby steps.

> jerk (trying to spin your inconsiderate behaviour as you being the victim,
> misrepresenting your behaviour when it is being discussed, always "explaining"
> your behaviour, as if an explanation would make a difference to the annoyance
> you caused to others...)

You came close.


But, since Nikos has thankfully ceased, I'm saying here that unless
you have good reasons otherwise I'd rather only continue this
off-list. If you reply on-list without justification I will likely not
reply.

Apologies to everyone else for the clutter this has caused.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#49640

A plague is raging in the town
A rat scampers into the room.
People are harried --- A RAT!

Rurpy:  Rats are living beings dont you know?! Never kill a living being!
Its not humanitarian, er rattatitarian.
(200 more posts on humanitarianism, veganism, rattatitarianism etc)

Alex: Hear Hear! But first lets rename our august assembly as rat support assembly

Steven: I know how to solve this problem. Quarantining a rat for a month cures plague. Now I dont know how to do that... so I am quarantining myself.

Somebody begins to protest:
Steven: You dare protest?! I quarantine you... er myself.

Joel: Go away Rat.  Go far away.  You are not a good person.  You are not even a
good rat.  You are just rat the brat.  You should take up something you
can do better than this.. like maybe sleeping

Chris1 (saunters into the room in shorts carrying a hockey stick):
Here folks I am going to solve the problem once and for all.
[Swish -- after flying across the room the rat lies still on its back]

Everyone: Bravo Chris!

[After a while the rat is scampering more energetically than ever before]
Everyone: Aww Chris! Why did you not hit it harder?!?!
Chris1: [Yawn] Im bored. Bye...

Chris2: I have a solution.  Here's a rat-trap. Can someone please buy me some bait?

Mark: Hey rat! Ive a game for you. Willing to play?
[Rat picks up its ears]
Mark: Its called suicide-game. I pretend to commit suicide. You actually commit suicide. Do you like my game?
[Rat ignores Mark and keeps scampering about]

Antoon: Since we dont have a cure for plague (this is a couple of centuries before tetracycline) lets rename plague to troll...

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#49695 — OT Plague [was Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list]

On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 06:48:59 -0700, rusi wrote:

> A plague is raging in the town
> A rat scampers into the room.
> People are harried --- A RAT!
[...]

Very imaginative, but your characterisation of people's responses to the 
plague rat appears to have very little in common with the actual 
responses you are attempting to mock.


-- 
Steven

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#49663

Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2 July 2013 13:01, Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> > Please answer the following question. If someone behaved
> > incompetently, how can I clearly state that fact when
> > "incompetently" is seen as an insult and insults don't belong on the
> > list?
>
> There is not ever a place on this list where you will need to call
> someone incompetent.

So even if that term describes their behaviour and manner, you think
no-one should ever point it out?

> > So what are the non-insulting terms for
> >
> > incompentent, (starting a webservice in a language you're a newby in,
> > making changes on the life server so that any typo you make, can take
> > your site out the air),
>
> You just did it.

So you agree the correct term to use *is* “incompetent”, as Anton said.
Yet you don't want Anton to use the correct term.

Needless to say, I disagree with your position. There is no place for
baseless insults in this community; but when the behaviour of someone in
this community is harmful, then it is entirely appropriate to use clear
terms (e.g. “incompetent”, “inconsiderate”) to describe their behaviour.

-- 
 \          “One bad programmer can easily create two new jobs a year. |
  `\      Hiring more bad programmers will just increase our perceived |
_o__)                     need for them.” —David Lorge Parnas, 1999-03 |
Ben Finney

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#49678

Since this thread too has gone into the trash hole
thanks to our resident trolls I might as well comment...

On 07/02/2013 04:34 PM, Ben Finney wrote:> Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On 2 July 2013 13:01, Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>> > Please answer the following question. If someone behaved
>> > incompetently, how can I clearly state that fact when
>> > "incompetently" is seen as an insult and insults don't belong on the
>> > list?
>>
>> There is not ever a place on this list where you will need to call
>> someone incompetent.
> 
> So even if that term describes their behaviour and manner, you think
> no-one should ever point it out?

If it is relevant and likely to be helpful to the asker, by
all means please point it out.  But if someone is asking a
question about *python*, what relevance does their competence 
as an Apache administrator (or ability as a father for that
matter) have to do with it? [*1]

If your going to point out something negative about someone
then do so politely.  Ask yourself if you were pointing out 
incompetence to your boss (or anyone else where impoliteness
could have real consequences for you) if you would say, 
"you're incompetent."   

In Nikos' case, unless you're an idiot or severely socially 
challenged, it should have been clear early on that pointing 
out his knowledge deficits was not going to be helpful to him. 
Telling him to "hire someone" without any knowledge of his goals 
or resources is as patently assine as trying to justify it as 
"telling the truth".

>> > So what are the non-insulting terms for
>> >
>> > incompentent, (starting a webservice in a language you're a newby in,
>> > making changes on the life server so that any typo you make, can take
>> > your site out the air),
>>
>> You just did it.
> 
> So you agree the correct term to use *is* “incompetent”, as Anton said.
> Yet you don't want Anton to use the correct term.
> 
> Needless to say, I disagree with your position. There is no place for
> baseless insults in this community; but when the behaviour of someone in
> this community is harmful, then it is entirely appropriate to use clear
> terms (e.g. “incompetent”, “inconsiderate”) to describe their behaviour.

Those are anything but clear.  They are subjective and
highly judgmental and frequently applied one-sidedly.
(Not "rude" when an alpha poster here says it but "rude"
when someone else does.) 

Please use non-emotional, neutral, factual descriptions
and only do so when it is actually relevant.  IOW, please 
resist your desire to "tell off" the poster -- it usually
just produces more responses in kind.

----
[*1] I realize in Nikos' case, there were questions about web 
site administration, but then the answer should be (if you 
don't want to deal with it and you can't can't control your
need to reply with something), a polite, "that's off topic
here but the apache list might be able to help you."

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#49690

On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 17:30:32 -0700, rurpy wrote:

>> Needless to say, I disagree with your position. There is no place for
>> baseless insults in this community; but when the behaviour of someone
>> in this community is harmful, then it is entirely appropriate to use
>> clear terms (e.g. “incompetent”, “inconsiderate”) to describe their
>> behaviour.
> 
> Those are anything but clear.  They are subjective and highly judgmental
> and frequently applied one-sidedly. (Not "rude" when an alpha poster
> here says it but "rude" when someone else does.)

That is a very good point. One of the reasons I do not use the Python IRC 
channel is that in my experience anyone disagreeing with the privileged 
few's *opinions* gets banned without either warning or explanation.

On the other hand, I've certainly learned a lot in my newbie days from 
being told off quite harshly by some of the Python community alphas, like 
the Effbot Fredrik Lundh, and Alex Martelli. It hurts to be told you're 
an idiot by one of the alphas, but sometimes you need to be told you're 
an idiot[1]. Even if you're not, realising that others think you are 
builds character[2].

The difference is that, as a rule, the alphas don't get suckered into 
interminable flame wars that suck the life out of a community. Short, 
harsh, surgical strikes is one thing. Four years of trench warfare is 
another thing altogether.



[1] And for the record, I can think of two specific cases, although I may 
have forgotten others. In one case I think time has proven that I was 
right in my opinion, or at least the opinion of the Python devs shifted 
towards my viewpoint (introduction of tuple methods). In the other I have 
come to accept that Alex Martelli was right, although I still think that 
*failing an assignment* for a single unnecessary global declaration is 
unfairly harsh.

[2] Sometimes it builds stronger, better character. Sometimes it builds 
weaker, broken character. It's all character.


-- 
Steven

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#49761

On 07/02/2013 07:24 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>[...]
> On the other hand, I've certainly learned a lot in my newbie days from 
> being told off quite harshly by some of the Python community alphas, like 
> the Effbot Fredrik Lundh, and Alex Martelli. It hurts to be told you're 
> an idiot by one of the alphas, but sometimes you need to be told you're 
> an idiot[1]. Even if you're not, realising that others think you are 
> builds character[2].

True, for some people, some times.  As your [2] footnote admits
it can be damaging as well.  I have noticed that the ratio of
female to mail posters here (at least as I can guess from names)
seems far lower than the same ratio of programmers where I've 
worked.  I asked a female programmer once why she didn't use 
groups like c.l.p. and she cited harshness and bickering as the 
main reason.  Obviously a sample of one doesn't prove anything 
but...

Effbot was around when I first started reading c.l.p and
although I immediately recognized his contributions to and 
knowledge of python, I always questioned whether his positive 
contributions weren't negated by his negative ones.  (Consider 
how many positive things he contributed <i>that wouldn't have 
been mentioned by someone else had he not posted them</i>, 
versus the disruption caused in reaction to his attitude.)

>[...]
> [2] Sometimes it builds stronger, better character. Sometimes it builds 
> weaker, broken character. It's all character.

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#49792 — Whatever happened to the Effbot? [was Re: python adds an etc]

On 4/07/2013 3:08 AM, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
> Effbot was around when I first started reading c.l.p

Does anyone know if Fredrik Lundh is still an active Python user? His
site hasn't been updated for 3-4+ years now (there's an index error on
the articles page of effbot.org). Has he pulled a Pilgrim?

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#49794 — Re: Whatever happened to the Effbot? [was Re: python adds an etc]

Last I knew, Fredrik was working for Google.  According to his
LinkedIn profile he's a Google employee in Zurich, apparently doing
YouTube stuff (assuming his profile is up-to-date).

Skip

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#49713

Op 03-07-13 02:30, rurpy@yahoo.com schreef:
> If your going to point out something negative about someone
> then do so politely.  Ask yourself if you were pointing out 
> incompetence to your boss (or anyone else where impoliteness
> could have real consequences for you) if you would say, 
> "you're incompetent." 

And so we shift from no problem speaking bluntly or clearly
to wording it in a way that wouldn't antagonize your boss
too much.

Off course that would also mean throwing out remarks like:

] You have betrayed the trust of all your customers.

Which seemed to be accepted on this list without a problem.


> Please use non-emotional, neutral, factual descriptions
> and only do so when it is actually relevant.  IOW, please 
> resist your desire to "tell off" the poster -- it usually
> just produces more responses in kind.


This is often not workable. Limiting to factual description
means that you often can't summarize a list of such factual
descriptions into a conclusion. You can list 8 examples of
someone betraying the trust of his customers but you can't
summarize it into: "is/behaves untrustworthy to his customers,"
even if all signs point to this person going to continue in the
same vein.

It is limiting yourself into pointing out all the trees
without being allowed to call it a forest.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#49763

On 07/03/2013 03:21 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 03-07-13 02:30, rurpy@yahoo.com schreef:
>> If your going to point out something negative about someone
>> then do so politely.  Ask yourself if you were pointing out 
>> incompetence to your boss (or anyone else where impoliteness
>> could have real consequences for you) if you would say, 
>> "you're incompetent." 
> 
> And so we shift from no problem speaking bluntly or clearly
> to wording it in a way that wouldn't antagonize your boss
> too much.

As I pointed out, emotionally-loaded, judgmental language 
*is not* clear.  And yes, I think "wouldn't antagonize your
boss" is not a bad heuristic for judging the politeness of 
your response.  You shouldn't be asking for respect from 
other posters here if you're not willing to provide the 
same respect IMO.  But even if you reject that there is
the fundamental nature of people: that if you disrespect 
others they are likely to respond in kind and (IMO) most 
people here find the resulting climate unpleasant.  You
can't do much about trolls who occasionally show up and 
disrespect you but you can promote a climate of respect
by not responding in kind.

> Off course that would also mean throwing out remarks like:
> 
> ] You have betrayed the trust of all your customers.
> 
> Which seemed to be accepted on this list without a problem.

There are many things "accepted on this list" that are
questionable.

Again I ask, what does his web site admin skills or lack
thereof have to do with python?

If you want to decline providing Python help to someone 
because you don't like some real-world behavior of the 
person, fine.  But when you attack him over it, and 
publicly engage in a long, noisy discussion here in 
which you trumpet your moral and technical superiority,
then you should not be surprised when the target takes 
offense and responds in kind.

If someone from Wikileaks posts here seeking Python help, 
should we engage in a long discussion about the morality 
of Wikileaks and how they aid US fugitives from justice?

How about someone who lets slip he's just been released 
from prison for child sexual abuse? 

How about someone who's writing software for bulk mailing?

How about someone who is writing membership management 
software for the American Nazi Party? 

>> Please use non-emotional, neutral, factual descriptions
>> and only do so when it is actually relevant.  IOW, please 
>> resist your desire to "tell off" the poster -- it usually
>> just produces more responses in kind.
> 
> This is often not workable. Limiting to factual description
> means that you often can't summarize a list of such factual
> descriptions into a conclusion. You can list 8 examples of
> someone betraying the trust of his customers but you can't
> summarize it into: "is/behaves untrustworthy to his customers,"
> even if all signs point to this person going to continue in the
> same vein.
> 
> It is limiting yourself into pointing out all the trees
> without being allowed to call it a forest.

You can summarize while being polite and non-judgmental.

You do not have state your belief on every off-topic 
inflammatory subject that happens to come up.

And if you don't want to help someone because of something 
you don't like about them, you don't have to.  But you also 
don't have to tell all of us why we should agree with you or
try to publicly bully into not helping those who don't share 
your opinion.

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#49848

Op 03-07-13 19:11, rurpy@yahoo.com schreef:
> On 07/03/2013 03:21 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>> Op 03-07-13 02:30, rurpy@yahoo.com schreef:
>>> If your going to point out something negative about someone
>>> then do so politely.  Ask yourself if you were pointing out 
>>> incompetence to your boss (or anyone else where impoliteness
>>> could have real consequences for you) if you would say, 
>>> "you're incompetent." 
>> And so we shift from no problem speaking bluntly or clearly
>> to wording it in a way that wouldn't antagonize your boss
>> too much.
> As I pointed out, emotionally-loaded, judgmental language 
> *is not* clear.

Well that is true, but mostly in the trivial sense that
language is rarely clear even when you are talking facts.

When I meet someone new and I talk about my love of spaghetti
and the other inivites me to the spaghetti evening the next
day, that can turn out to be a big disappointment because
when I talk about spaghetti, I mean a carbonarra while I
was invited to a bolognaise-evening.


>  And yes, I think "wouldn't antagonize your
> boss" is not a bad heuristic for judging the politeness of 
> your response.

That may be true for you personnally, but you are unsufficiently
clear for anyone else to be of any help. The problem is that
when you wrote this, you had a specific kind of boss in mind
who would react in certain ways to certain kinds of treatment.
However it would be extremely unlikely that other people
would come up with the same idea of boss. And not everybody
is in the same situation, some people can't afford to lose
there job, others are in a less desperate situation, for
some people their priority is their career, while for others
it is the service to their clients. All these people are going
to come up with wildly different answers.


> Again I ask, what does his web site admin skills or lack
> thereof have to do with python?
>
> If you want to decline providing Python help to someone 
> because you don't like some real-world behavior of the 
> person, fine.  But when you attack him over it, and 
> publicly engage in a long, noisy discussion here in 
> which you trumpet your moral and technical superiority,
> then you should not be surprised when the target takes 
> offense and responds in kind.
>
> If someone from Wikileaks posts here seeking Python help, 
> should we engage in a long discussion about the morality 
> of Wikileaks and how they aid US fugitives from justice?
>
> How about someone who lets slip he's just been released 
> from prison for child sexual abuse? 
>
> How about someone who's writing software for bulk mailing?
>
> How about someone who is writing membership management 
> software for the American Nazi Party?

Are you saying we should either help the person with his
(python) problem or decline any help no matter how nefarious
the goals he wants to accomplish or are you saying these
examples are not serious enough so people should show some
tolerance in these cases?



>>> Please use non-emotional, neutral, factual descriptions
>>> and only do so when it is actually relevant.  IOW, please 
>>> resist your desire to "tell off" the poster -- it usually
>>> just produces more responses in kind.
>> This is often not workable. Limiting to factual description
>> means that you often can't summarize a list of such factual
>> descriptions into a conclusion. You can list 8 examples of
>> someone betraying the trust of his customers but you can't
>> summarize it into: "is/behaves untrustworthy to his customers,"
>> even if all signs point to this person going to continue in the
>> same vein.
>>
>> It is limiting yourself into pointing out all the trees
>> without being allowed to call it a forest.
> You can summarize while being polite and non-judgmental.

Somethings are not expressable in a way that is acceptable
to who you are talking too, simply because they find the
fact or opinion to be hurtful/insulting in itself.


> You do not have state your belief on every off-topic 
> inflammatory subject that happens to come up.

So what do you suggest? That we simply let those who
bring up an off-topic inflammatory subject, go on
about it whithout challenge?

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#50024

On 07/04/2013 06:09 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 03-07-13 19:11, rurpy@yahoo.com schreef:
>> On 07/03/2013 03:21 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>>> Op 03-07-13 02:30, rurpy@yahoo.com schreef:
>>>> If your going to point out something negative about someone
>>>> then do so politely.  Ask yourself if you were pointing out 
>>>> incompetence to your boss (or anyone else where impoliteness
>>>> could have real consequences for you) if you would say, 
>>>> "you're incompetent." 
>>> And so we shift from no problem speaking bluntly or clearly
>>> to wording it in a way that wouldn't antagonize your boss
>>> too much.
>> As I pointed out, emotionally-loaded, judgmental language 
>> *is not* clear.
> 
> Well that is true, but mostly in the trivial sense that
> language is rarely clear even when you are talking facts.

Its true in more than a trivial sense.

> When I meet someone new and I talk about my love of spaghetti
> and the other inivites me to the spaghetti evening the next
> day, that can turn out to be a big disappointment because
> when I talk about spaghetti, I mean a carbonarra while I
> was invited to a bolognaise-evening.

Of course there is some degree of uncertainty.  But that
uncertainty is relatively small when compared with the
range of possible food you might have been served had 
your evening's companion not specified "spaghetti".

Had he or she invited you to a really "delicious" meal
on the other hand, the uncertainty about the what 
"delicious" means would far greater.  Unless you know 
the person, "delicious" is so subjective as to have very
little meaning since its meaning varies between people
much more than "spaghetti" does.

Describing someone as "stupid", "incompetent", "a 
dick", etc has a similar high degree of subjectivity
and its meaning depends more on the sayer than on any 
objective attribute of the subject.

If you can tell me something objective about the subject,
then that may be helpful to me in deciding how to respond 
to him or her.  If you just spout subjective invective, 
then its just noise because I don't know enough about 
you to trust your judgment.  (Advanced technical python 
knowledge does not qualify one in judging other human 
beings.)  And since I'm reading the thread I have access 
to the same info you do, and can form my own subjective
opinion.  Judging other people is in my opinion a moral 
action that is too important to delegate or to do by just
going along with the crowd.

So such subjective, emotionally-loaded, judgmental responses 
provide little benefit to others, amplify whatever negative
tone was created by the troll and stimulate the troll.  The
only benefits are to you who gets to vent and argue, and a 
(hopefully few) voyeurs and fellow vigilantes who enjoy 
watching and joining in on that kind of flamage.

>>  And yes, I think "wouldn't antagonize your
>> boss" is not a bad heuristic for judging the politeness of 
>> your response.
> 
> That may be true for you personnally, but you are unsufficiently
> clear for anyone else to be of any help. The problem is that
> when you wrote this, you had a specific kind of boss in mind [...]

No.  I originally wrote "your boss (or anyone else where 
impoliteness could have real consequences for you)."  I 
believe most people would read that as intended, some sort
of generalized authority figure, if not boss then maybe a
police officer, or a powerful politician that could quaff 
your permit application, or the touchy father of a woman 
you want to date, and not necessarily "Mr. Joel Davis,
my boss at this job at this moment and also my golfing 
buddy."

> who would react in certain ways to certain kinds of treatment.
> However it would be extremely unlikely that other people
> would come up with the same idea of boss. And not everybody
> is in the same situation, some people can't afford to lose
> there job, others are in a less desperate situation, for
> some people their priority is their career, while for others
> it is the service to their clients. All these people are going
> to come up with wildly different answers.

The answers will presumably share a common characteristic:
the need to address the person with politeness and respect,
even when expressing disagreement with them.

>> Again I ask, what does his web site admin skills or lack
>> thereof have to do with python?
>>
>> If you want to decline providing Python help to someone 
>> because you don't like some real-world behavior of the 
>> person, fine.  But when you attack him over it, and 
>> publicly engage in a long, noisy discussion here in 
>> which you trumpet your moral and technical superiority,
>> then you should not be surprised when the target takes 
>> offense and responds in kind.
>>
>> If someone from Wikileaks posts here seeking Python help, 
>> should we engage in a long discussion about the morality 
>> of Wikileaks and how they aid US fugitives from justice?
>>
>> How about someone who lets slip he's just been released 
>> from prison for child sexual abuse? 
>>
>> How about someone who's writing software for bulk mailing?
>>
>> How about someone who is writing membership management 
>> software for the American Nazi Party?
> 
> Are you saying we should either help the person with his
> (python) problem or decline any help no matter how nefarious
> the goals he wants to accomplish or are you saying these
> examples are not serious enough so people should show some
> tolerance in these cases?

The former.

>>>> Please use non-emotional, neutral, factual descriptions
>>>> and only do so when it is actually relevant.  IOW, please 
>>>> resist your desire to "tell off" the poster -- it usually
>>>> just produces more responses in kind.
>>> This is often not workable. Limiting to factual description
>>> means that you often can't summarize a list of such factual
>>> descriptions into a conclusion. You can list 8 examples of
>>> someone betraying the trust of his customers but you can't
>>> summarize it into: "is/behaves untrustworthy to his customers,"
>>> even if all signs point to this person going to continue in the
>>> same vein.
>>>
>>> It is limiting yourself into pointing out all the trees
>>> without being allowed to call it a forest.
>> You can summarize while being polite and non-judgmental.
> 
> Somethings are not expressable in a way that is acceptable
> to who you are talking too, simply because they find the
> fact or opinion to be hurtful/insulting in itself.

And so?  That someone may be hurt or insulted by a polite
reasoned response obviously does not mean that impolite
emotional flamage is better.  

>> You do not have state your belief on every off-topic 
>> inflammatory subject that happens to come up.
> 
> So what do you suggest? That we simply let those who
> bring up an off-topic inflammatory subject, go on
> about it whithout challenge?

Yes, that's what "don't feed the troll" means. 

If you are going to come back with, that means we the group 
(or I the reader) acquiesce to whatever vile filth is posted
here, no it doesn't mean that.  It means that instead of 
highlighting it and encouraging more of it by responding
(which increases its credibility), its impact is minimized 
by the lack of attention it receives, and that in turn 
generally results in the miscreant leaving sooner rather 
than later.

If you are going to come back with, then the poster of vile 
filth will, unchallenged, just go on doing it.  No, experience
(although you dismiss it) shows that generally such people 
will get tired of being ignored and will move on.

And keep in mind that even if "everyone" here adopted a 
"don't feed the troll" ethic, trolls would not be greeted
with absolute silence -- there will always be enough non-
compliance that someone will tell off the troll.  The 
idea is that by promoting a "don't feed the troll" policy, 
there will only be one or two such responses followed by 
a couple of "don't feed the troll" posts followed by quiet
(except for the troll, who, getting no further responses,
to his trolling eventually gives up and seeks food elsewhere.)  

And in more complex cases like Nikos, whose posts are a 
mixture of trolling and requests for help, the trollish
part will be ignored as above and the help will or will
not eventually dry up as he wears out the patience of
those willing to help or learns to frame requests in
more helpable form.

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#50128

Op 06-07-13 00:40, rurpy@yahoo.com schreef:
> On 07/04/2013 06:09 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>> Op 03-07-13 19:11, rurpy@yahoo.com schreef:
>>> On 07/03/2013 03:21 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>>>> Op 03-07-13 02:30, rurpy@yahoo.com schreef:
>>>>> If your going to point out something negative about someone
>>>>> then do so politely.  Ask yourself if you were pointing out 
>>>>> incompetence to your boss (or anyone else where impoliteness
>>>>> could have real consequences for you) if you would say, 
>>>>> "you're incompetent." 
>>>> And so we shift from no problem speaking bluntly or clearly
>>>> to wording it in a way that wouldn't antagonize your boss
>>>> too much.
>>> As I pointed out, emotionally-loaded, judgmental language 
>>> *is not* clear.
>> Well that is true, but mostly in the trivial sense that
>> language is rarely clear even when you are talking facts.
> Its true in more than a trivial sense.
>
>> When I meet someone new and I talk about my love of spaghetti
>> and the other inivites me to the spaghetti evening the next
>> day, that can turn out to be a big disappointment because
>> when I talk about spaghetti, I mean a carbonarra while I
>> was invited to a bolognaise-evening.
> Of course there is some degree of uncertainty.  But that
> uncertainty is relatively small when compared with the
> range of possible food you might have been served had 
> your evening's companion not specified "spaghetti".
>
> Had he or she invited you to a really "delicious" meal
> on the other hand, the uncertainty about the what 
> "delicious" means would far greater.  Unless you know 
> the person, "delicious" is so subjective as to have very
> little meaning since its meaning varies between people
> much more than "spaghetti" does.
That is not true. Subjective and unclear are not the
same. And that you don't know what kind of food someone
find delicious, doesn't make it unclear what kind of
expectations you (try to) evoke when you promisse him
a delicious meal.

When you go to someone's restaurant buddies and tell them
you want to cook him a delicious meal, do they have suggestions?
Then those buddies will find that question clear enough to
come up with useful answers. And I doubt that you can get
just as useful answers by asking about objective facts.


> Describing someone as "stupid", "incompetent", "a 
> dick", etc has a similar high degree of subjectivity
> and its meaning depends more on the sayer than on any 
> objective attribute of the subject.
I doubt that. Subjective is not the same as arbitrary.
We as humans react in large degree the same to the same
kind of stimuli. If someone tells me something tastes
sweet, then that tells me more about what he is tasting
than about him. Especially if more than one person reports
the same.


> If you can tell me something objective about the subject,
> then that may be helpful to me in deciding how to respond 
> to him or her.  If you just spout subjective invective, 
> then its just noise because I don't know enough about 
> you to trust your judgment.

And why should you trust my objective statement? The fact
that the statement is objective, doesn't mean I am qualified
in making it.


>   (Advanced technical python 
> knowledge does not qualify one in judging other human 
> beings.)  And since I'm reading the thread I have access 
> to the same info you do, and can form my own subjective
> opinion.  Judging other people is in my opinion a moral 
> action that is too important to delegate or to do by just
> going along with the crowd.

So nobody is stopping you AFAICS.

> So such subjective, emotionally-loaded, judgmental responses 
> provide little benefit to others, amplify whatever negative
> tone was created by the troll and stimulate the troll.  The
> only benefits are to you who gets to vent and argue, and a 
> (hopefully few) voyeurs and fellow vigilantes who enjoy 
> watching and joining in on that kind of flamage.

This is just your subjective emotional evaluation. By your
own words why should I trust you? Why should we see the benefits
to the vigilantes and the voyeurs as little? Why should we
see the tone that is created by the troll as negative? Why
should we hope that the voyeurs and vigilantes are few?

Doesn't this all just say more about you than about the trolls,
vigilantes and voyeurs? Why should I take your judgement over that
of those you call trolls, vigilantes and voyeurs? Why do you
use the words "troll", "vigilante" and "voyeur", which are
emotionnaly laden, instead of stating objective facts?


>> Are you saying we should either help the person with his
>> (python) problem or decline any help no matter how nefarious
>> the goals he wants to accomplish or are you saying these
>> examples are not serious enough so people should show some
>> tolerance in these cases?
> The former.

Then I strongly disagree. If at some point a pedophile would
come to this group to ask for advice for his python program
he's using to spy on the kids in the neighbourhood, then just
declining to help is IMO a kind of moral negligence. 


>>> You can summarize while being polite and non-judgmental.
>> Somethings are not expressable in a way that is acceptable
>> to who you are talking too, simply because they find the
>> fact or opinion to be hurtful/insulting in itself.
> And so?  That someone may be hurt or insulted by a polite
> reasoned response obviously does not mean that impolite
> emotional flamage is better.

It doesn't mean it is worse either. Sometimes impolite
emotional flammage gets the message intended better accross
than a polite reasoned response. Polite reasoned responses
are easier to ignore.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#49714

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Antoon Pardon
<antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> Op 03-07-13 02:30, rurpy@yahoo.com schreef:
>> If your going to point out something negative about someone
>> then do so politely.  Ask yourself if you were pointing out
>> incompetence to your boss (or anyone else where impoliteness
>> could have real consequences for you) if you would say,
>> "you're incompetent."
>
> And so we shift from no problem speaking bluntly or clearly
> to wording it in a way that wouldn't antagonize your boss
> too much.
>
> Off course that would also mean throwing out remarks like:
>
> ] You have betrayed the trust of all your customers.
>
> Which seemed to be accepted on this list without a problem.

If my boss gave a random stranger from a mailing list the root
password to one of our servers, I would say to his face that he had
betrayed his (our) customers' trust. I would say it with strong
emphasis and a raised tone, too, and no small heat. The words you
quote above are perfectly factual and, in my opinion, business-like
language.

ChrisA

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#49716

Στις 3/7/2013 12:45 μμ, ο/η Chris Angelico έγραψε:

>> ] You have betrayed the trust of all your customers.
>>
>> Which seemed to be accepted on this list without a problem.
>
> If my boss gave a random stranger from a mailing list the root
> password to one of our servers, I would say to his face that he had
> betrayed his (our) customers' trust. I would say it with strong
> emphasis and a raised tone, too, and no small heat. The words you
> quote above are perfectly factual and, in my opinion, business-like
> language.

I just received a call form on of my customers asking me to explain your 
mail and i did tell him the complete truth.

He was surprised by what i did my hopefully he will not leave from my 
server.

Also he asked me to redesign his website.

Thank God my business left intact from what you did.

Of course i should have give you the root pass(it was indeed stupid), 
but you violated my trust.

You should have been clear that you didnt want to help and not asking me 
via private mail for the root pass.

any way all is well now.


-- 
What is now proved was at first only imagined!

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#49739

Am Mittwoch, 3. Juli 2013 12:00:14 UTC+2 schrieb Νίκος:
> Στις 3/7/2013 12:45 μμ, ο/η Chris Angelico έγραψε:
> >> ] You have betrayed the trust of all your customers.
> ...
> I just received a call form on of my customers asking me to explain your 
> mail ...
> Of course i should have give you the root pass(it was indeed stupid), 
> but you violated my trust.
> You should have been clear that you didnt want to help and not asking me 
> via private mail for the root pass.

May i cite:
Am Dienstag, 4. Juni 2013 19:12:41 UTC+2 schrieb Νικόλαος Κούρας:
> Τη Τρίτη, 4 Ιουνίου 2013 8:09:18 μ.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης Chris Angelico έγραψε:
>> On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 3:02 AM, Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> I'm willing to let someone with full root access to my webhost to see 
>>> thigns from the inside.
>>> ...
>> You need to read up on what happens when you enter Dummy Mode and give
>> someone full root access to your web host. You really REALLY need to
>> understand what that means before you offer random strangers that kind
>> of access to someone else's data.
>> 
*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************
>> I've half a mind to take you up on your offer, then go look for
>> personal and private info from your clients, and email it to them
>> (along with a link to this thread) to point out what's going on.
*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************
>> ChrisA
> 
> I know what full root access mean.
> I also trust you.
> ...

Am Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2013 00:12:26 UTC+2 schrieb Chris Angelico:
> The call is strong... I could rule the galaxy alongside my father...
> I've searched my feelings, and I know this to be true!
> 
*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************
> Okay. I accept. I'll **do as I promised.** Might be interesting, and
> educative - for someone, at least.
*************************************************************************
*************************************************************************
[emphasis added for those, who do not want to read the whole post]

Any questions?

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#49748

On 03/07/2013 15:12, feedthetroll@gmx.de wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 3. Juli 2013 12:00:14 UTC+2 schrieb Νίκος:
>> Στις 3/7/2013 12:45 μμ, ο/η Chris Angelico έγραψε:
>>>> ] You have betrayed the trust of all your customers.
>> ...
>> I just received a call form on of my customers asking me to explain your
>> mail ...
>> Of course i should have give you the root pass(it was indeed stupid),
>> but you violated my trust.
>> You should have been clear that you didnt want to help and not asking me
>> via private mail for the root pass.
> May i cite:
> Am Dienstag, 4. Juni 2013 19:12:41 UTC+2 schrieb Νικόλαος Κούρας:
>> Τη Τρίτη, 4 Ιουνίου 2013 8:09:18 μ.μ. UTC+3, ο χρήστης Chris Angelico έγραψε:
>>> On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 3:02 AM, Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I'm willing to let someone with full root access to my webhost to see
>>>> thigns from the inside.
>>>> ...
>>> You need to read up on what happens when you enter Dummy Mode and give
>>> someone full root access to your web host. You really REALLY need to
>>> understand what that means before you offer random strangers that kind
>>> of access to someone else's data.
>>>
> *************************************************************************
> *************************************************************************
>>> I've half a mind to take you up on your offer, then go look for
>>> personal and private info from your clients, and email it to them
>>> (along with a link to this thread) to point out what's going on.
> *************************************************************************
> *************************************************************************
>>> ChrisA
>> I know what full root access mean.
>> I also trust you.
>> ...
> Am Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2013 00:12:26 UTC+2 schrieb Chris Angelico:
>> The call is strong... I could rule the galaxy alongside my father...
>> I've searched my feelings, and I know this to be true!
>>
> *************************************************************************
> *************************************************************************
>> Okay. I accept. I'll **do as I promised.** Might be interesting, and
>> educative - for someone, at least.
> *************************************************************************
> *************************************************************************
> [emphasis added for those, who do not want to read the whole post]
>
> Any questions?
>
+1000

I missed a few key posts on this thread and was wondering what happened 
between Chris and Nicos - thanks for the summary :-)

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#49757

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 7:42:19 PM UTC+5:30, feedth...@gmx.de wrote:
> Any questions?

YES! 

Who is that hiding behind 'FeedTheTroll' ?

Well thanks anyways :-)
I was thinking of doing that but could not find my oxygen mask needed to wade into the steaming pile of ...

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#49825

Am Mittwoch, 3. Juli 2013 19:00:50 UTC+2 schrieb rusi:
> On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 7:42:19 PM UTC+5:30, feedth...@gmx.de wrote:
> > Any questions?
> YES! 
> Who is that hiding behind 'FeedTheTroll' ?

Oh, it's just yattt (yet another troll trolling troll) lurching around to find amazing threads (Well, in fact these threads stopped being amazing weeks ago. I must be some sort of masochist :-) )

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