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Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language

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  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-11 19:43 +1100
    Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-11 01:39 -0800
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-11 10:05 +0000
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-11 21:45 +1100
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-12-12 15:38 +1000
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-12 01:17 -0800
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-12 21:28 +1100
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-12 06:34 -0800
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-13 01:47 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-12 08:20 -0800
                  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-12 11:58 -0500
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-12 15:01 +0000
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-12 08:52 -0500
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-12 14:30 +0000
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-12 12:55 -0500
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-13 08:15 -0800
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-14 03:27 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-13 10:27 -0800
                  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-14 05:32 +1100
                    Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-13 11:30 -0800
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-13 16:39 +0000
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-14 03:43 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-13 08:54 -0800
                  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-14 03:57 +1100
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-13 17:02 +0000
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-13 17:49 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-14 09:58 +0000
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-13 23:10 +0000
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-13 18:30 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-14 06:03 -0800
                  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-15 01:15 +1100
                  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-14 14:38 +0000
                  CP65001 fails (was re: ...) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-14 13:43 -0500
                    Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-14 12:48 -0800
                      Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-14 21:05 +0000
                        Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-14 22:51 +0000
                          Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-14 23:32 +0000
                          Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-14 20:42 -0800
                            Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-15 05:00 +0000
                              Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-14 21:24 -0800
                            Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-15 15:48 +1100
                            Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-15 14:25 +0000
                    Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-15 02:39 +0000
                      Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-15 00:07 -0500
                        Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-15 00:26 -0800
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-14 10:38 +1100
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-13 15:17 -0800
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-13 23:58 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-14 10:00 +0000
                  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-14 13:21 +0000
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-12-11 12:33 +0100
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-11 23:02 +1100
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-12-11 13:30 +0100
    Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-11 11:17 +0000

Page 2 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3  Next page →

#61835

On 13/12/2013 16:27, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:15 AM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
>> One should recognize, with win7, MS, finally, produce
>> a full unicode system. Strangely, among all the "bashing"
>> one can read about that system, this is rarely mentioned.
>> (With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)
>
> [citation needed]
>
> ChrisA
>

You'll have to wait until the cows come home on two counts.  One, he's 
never yet provided any evidence to support any statement that he's ever 
made here.  Second, he's still not smart enough to stop sending double 
spaced google crap.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#61839

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13/12/2013 16:27, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:15 AM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> One should recognize, with win7, MS, finally, produce
>>> a full unicode system. Strangely, among all the "bashing"
>>> one can read about that system, this is rarely mentioned.
>>> (With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)
>>
>>
>> [citation needed]
>>
>> ChrisA
>>
>
> You'll have to wait until the cows come home on two counts.  One, he's never
> yet provided any evidence to support any statement that he's ever made here.
> Second, he's still not smart enough to stop sending double spaced google
> crap.

I don't know that it's a matter of not being smart enough. It's just
as likely to be a deliberate choice, as that method of posting ensures
that the quality of the style matches the quality of the substance.

ChrisA

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#61843

On Friday, December 13, 2013 10:13:11 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> > You'll have to wait until the cows come home on two counts.  One, he's never
> > yet provided any evidence to support any statement that he's ever made here.
> > Second, he's still not smart enough to stop sending double spaced google
> > crap.

> I don't know that it's a matter of not being smart enough. It's just
> as likely to be a deliberate choice, as that method of posting ensures
> that the quality of the style matches the quality of the substance.

Correlates? Ok
Ensures??   Citation needed

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#61850

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:54 AM, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't know that it's a matter of not being smart enough. It's just
>> as likely to be a deliberate choice, as that method of posting ensures
>> that the quality of the style matches the quality of the substance.
>
> Correlates? Ok
> Ensures??   Citation needed

For jmf's posts? Definitely ensures. Citation: python-list archives. :)

ChrisA

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#61845

On 13/12/2013 16:43, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 13/12/2013 16:27, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:15 AM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> One should recognize, with win7, MS, finally, produce
>>>> a full unicode system. Strangely, among all the "bashing"
>>>> one can read about that system, this is rarely mentioned.
>>>> (With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)
>>>
>>>
>>> [citation needed]
>>>
>>> ChrisA
>>>
>>
>> You'll have to wait until the cows come home on two counts.  One, he's never
>> yet provided any evidence to support any statement that he's ever made here.
>> Second, he's still not smart enough to stop sending double spaced google
>> crap.
>
> I don't know that it's a matter of not being smart enough. It's just
> as likely to be a deliberate choice, as that method of posting ensures
> that the quality of the style matches the quality of the substance.
>
> ChrisA
>

How can it be deliberate choice, that implies thought in the first 
place, which is highly conspicious by its absence?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#61865

On 12/13/2013 11:15 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
> Le jeudi 12 décembre 2013 18:55:15 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a écrit :

>> If you mean cp65xxx (I forget exact numbers), MS Command Prompt fails,
>> not Python. One should not use any other code page, but only other code
>> pages work.

> Please, do not exaggerate too much.

I try not to, so in case I mis-remembered, I tried your experiment.

 >> echo "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
 > works.

I cut the mixed alphabet input line and pasted into a *fresh* Command 
Prompt window on my USA Win 7 machine with all updates.

C:\Users\Terry>echo "?‚????*"
"?‚????*"

About what I expected, except for é becoming ,. Now the test. Change the 
code page and re-paste.
'''
C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
Active code page: 65001

C:\Users\Terry>echo "*"
The system cannot write to the specified device.
'''
This a major fail as all non-ascii chars are deleted when pasted (at 
least visibly) and the echo does not echo. There is no Python involved 
in this failure.

I am willing to believe that you might have gotten different behavior on 
your French Win 7 machine. Windows is not an international OS, but 
rather a collection of ghettoized national versions.

As I said before, Idle does work in this regard.

Python 3.4.0a4 (v3.4.0a4:e245b0d7209b, Oct 20 2013, 19:57:58) [MSC 
v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
 >>> "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
'ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*'

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#61886

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:49:32 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 12/13/2013 11:15 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>> Le jeudi 12 décembre 2013 18:55:15 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a écrit :
> 
>>> If you mean cp65xxx (I forget exact numbers), MS Command Prompt fails,
>>> not Python. One should not use any other code page, but only other
>>> code pages work.
> 
>> Please, do not exaggerate too much.
> 
> I try not to, so in case I mis-remembered, I tried your experiment.

Terry, thanks for actually doing some useful Unicode experiments instead 
of just jumping on the "Let's all make fun of JMF bandwagon."


-- 
Steven

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#61868

On 13/12/2013 22:49, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/13/2013 11:15 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>> Le jeudi 12 décembre 2013 18:55:15 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a écrit :
>
>>> If you mean cp65xxx (I forget exact numbers), MS Command Prompt fails,
>>> not Python. One should not use any other code page, but only other code
>>> pages work.
>
>> Please, do not exaggerate too much.
>
> I try not to, so in case I mis-remembered, I tried your experiment.
>
>  >> echo "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
>  > works.
>
> I cut the mixed alphabet input line and pasted into a *fresh* Command
> Prompt window on my USA Win 7 machine with all updates.
>
> C:\Users\Terry>echo "?‚????*"
> "?‚????*"
>
> About what I expected, except for é becoming ,. Now the test. Change the
> code page and re-paste.
> '''
> C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
> Active code page: 65001
>
> C:\Users\Terry>echo "*"
> The system cannot write to the specified device.
> '''
> This a major fail as all non-ascii chars are deleted when pasted (at
> least visibly) and the echo does not echo. There is no Python involved
> in this failure.
>
> I am willing to believe that you might have gotten different behavior on
> your French Win 7 machine. Windows is not an international OS, but
> rather a collection of ghettoized national versions.
>
> As I said before, Idle does work in this regard.
>
> Python 3.4.0a4 (v3.4.0a4:e245b0d7209b, Oct 20 2013, 19:57:58) [MSC
> v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
>  >>> "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
> 'ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*'
>

Seems like we're now in the later stages of the 15, three minute rounds. 
  The trainer won't throw in the towel, the referee won't stop the fight 
and the boxer himself won't quit.  Is jmf actually trying to get himself 
killed?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#61869

On 12/13/2013 11:27 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:15 AM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
>> One should recognize, with win7, MS, finally, produce
>> a full unicode system. Strangely, among all the "bashing"
>> one can read about that system, this is rarely mentioned.
>> (With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)
>
> [citation needed]

Chris, I hardly think Jim's last statement (which I presume is your 
target) is egregious enough to start another junk subthread of 9 (now 
10) posts. Certainly '[citation needed]' is a pretty senseless comment. 
'Citation' to what, for what? It is well-known that Windows uses 2-byte 
words for unicode coding. If you want a citation for that fact, find it 
yourself.

What is not clear to me is whether Windows internally uses UCS-2, which 
only codes BMP chars, and which would *not* be excellent, or UTF-16, 
which covers all chars by using surrogates. I will guess the latter. 
More to the point, even if MS uses a complete coding scheme internally 
(UFT-16), it does not, as far as I know, make it fully available and 
usable to *me*, as I showed in my response about code page 65001.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#61897

Le samedi 14 décembre 2013 00:30:38 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a écrit :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is not clear to me is whether Windows internally uses UCS-2, which 
> 
> only codes BMP chars, and which would *not* be excellent, or UTF-16, 
> 
> which covers all chars by using surrogates. I will guess the latter. 
> 
> More to the point, even if MS uses a complete coding scheme internally 
> 
> (UFT-16), it does not, as far as I know, make it fully available and 
> 
> usable to *me*, as I showed in my response about code page 65001.
> 
> 


-------------

D:\>chcp 65001
Page de codes active : 65001
D:\>echo "*"
"*"
D:\>


>>> locale.getdefaultlocale()
('fr_CH', 'cp1252')

----------

In my understanding and experience, in the MS world
(desktop, intel), today:
Unicode == utf-16-le

----------

If you think, utf-16, because of surrogate pairs, is
not a proper solution, the single choice is utf-32.

You may not be aware, you are already using utf-32
probably much more than you think, (in a correct way).


jmf

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#61898

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:03 AM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
> D:\>chcp 65001
> Page de codes active : 65001
> D:\>echo "*"
> "*"
> D:\>
>
>
>>>> locale.getdefaultlocale()
> ('fr_CH', 'cp1252')
>
> ----------
>
> In my understanding and experience, in the MS world
> (desktop, intel), today:
> Unicode == utf-16-le

You still haven't explained how Win7 is different from every other
Windows going back as far as NT. Back in the NT days, Windows had
"Unicode" (really UCS-2 - it predated Unicode 2.0, so that was correct
for a few years) while OS/2 had DBCS. Hindsight shows that OS/2 did
kinda get left behind there :) Though maybe it would be easier to
force migration from DBCS to true Unicode than from UTF-16 or UCS-2
where it looks fine till you hit an astral character. Now how is Win7
different from NT? And where does the current "oldstable" Windows (if
I may borrow a term from Debian), XP, fit into that?

> If you think, utf-16, because of surrogate pairs, is
> not a proper solution, the single choice is utf-32.
>
> You may not be aware, you are already using utf-32
> probably much more than you think, (in a correct way).

Yeah. I use UTF-32 a lot, often stored in ways that elide unnecessary
00 bytes. It's a pretty good system, actually, giving high
performance, compact memory usage, and correct behaviour. Still don't
know what this has to do with Win7.

ChrisA

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#61899

On 14/12/2013 14:15, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:03 AM,  <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
>> D:\>chcp 65001
>> Page de codes active : 65001
>> D:\>echo "*"
>> "*"
>> D:\>
>>
>>
>>>>> locale.getdefaultlocale()
>> ('fr_CH', 'cp1252')
>>
>> ----------
>>
>> In my understanding and experience, in the MS world
>> (desktop, intel), today:
>> Unicode == utf-16-le
>
> You still haven't explained how Win7 is different from every other
> Windows going back as far as NT. Back in the NT days, Windows had
> "Unicode" (really UCS-2 - it predated Unicode 2.0, so that was correct
> for a few years) while OS/2 had DBCS. Hindsight shows that OS/2 did
> kinda get left behind there :) Though maybe it would be easier to
> force migration from DBCS to true Unicode than from UTF-16 or UCS-2
> where it looks fine till you hit an astral character. Now how is Win7
> different from NT? And where does the current "oldstable" Windows (if
> I may borrow a term from Debian), XP, fit into that?
>
>> If you think, utf-16, because of surrogate pairs, is
>> not a proper solution, the single choice is utf-32.
>>
>> You may not be aware, you are already using utf-32
>> probably much more than you think, (in a correct way).
>
> Yeah. I use UTF-32 a lot, often stored in ways that elide unnecessary
> 00 bytes. It's a pretty good system, actually, giving high
> performance, compact memory usage, and correct behaviour. Still don't
> know what this has to do with Win7.
>
> ChrisA
>

Reread "The Emperor's New Clothes" and you'll get it :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#61909 — CP65001 fails (was re: ...)

On 12/14/2013 9:03 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:

> D:\>chcp 65001
> Page de codes active : 65001
> D:\>echo "*"
> "*"

Try pasting *your* original echo command: echo "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"

To repeat, here is what I see:
'''
C:\Users\Terry>echo "?‚????*"
"?‚????*"

C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
Active code page: 65001

C:\Users\Terry>echo "*"
The system cannot write to the specified device.
'''
To repeat, the second time I paste: echo "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
but Command Prompt only displays: echo "*". Typing in the latter, 
ascii-only, command is meaningless.

A similar test:
'''
C:\Users\Terry>more
^Z

C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
Active code page: 65001

C:\Users\Terry>more
Not enough memory.
'''
This was reported by Victor Stinner as part of
http://bugs.python.org/issue19914
to explain how cp65001 causes behavior like this with Python's 
interactive help() function (which more for paging on Windows).

 >>> help(str)
Not enough memory.

See
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3401802/codepage-850-works-65001-fails-there-is-no-response-to-call-foo-cmd-interna
for other reports that cp65001 fails. It is not just me.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#61917 — Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)

Le samedi 14 décembre 2013 19:43:41 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a écrit :
> On 12/14/2013 9:03 AM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > D:\>chcp 65001
> 
> > Page de codes active : 65001
> 
> > D:\>echo "*"
> 
> > "*"
> 
> 
> 
> Try pasting *your* original echo command: echo "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
> 
> 
> 
> To repeat, here is what I see:
> 
> '''
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>echo "?‚????*"
> 
> "?‚????*"
> 
> 
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
> 
> Active code page: 65001
> 
> 
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>echo "*"
> 
> The system cannot write to the specified device.
> 
> '''
> 
> To repeat, the second time I paste: echo "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
> 
> but Command Prompt only displays: echo "*". Typing in the latter, 
> 
> ascii-only, command is meaningless.
> 
> 
> 
> A similar test:
> 
> '''
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>more
> 
> ^Z
> 
> 
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
> 
> Active code page: 65001
> 
> 
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>more
> 
> Not enough memory.
> 
> '''
> 
> This was reported by Victor Stinner as part of
> 
> http://bugs.python.org/issue19914
> 
> to explain how cp65001 causes behavior like this with Python's 
> 
> interactive help() function (which more for paging on Windows).
> 
> 
> 
>  >>> help(str)
> 
> Not enough memory.
> 
> 
> 
> See
> 
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3401802/codepage-850-works-65001-fails-there-is-no-response-to-call-foo-cmd-interna
> 
> for other reports that cp65001 fails. It is not just me.
> 
> 
> 

----

>>> print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u]))
ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE
LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE
EURO SIGN
CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456
CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE
COUNTERBORE
ASTERISK

-----

cp65001, font: Consolas

D:\jm\jmgo>echo "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
"ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"

As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph:
the chars 1, 4 and 7.

I build an exe with the golang. Same result.

Just for curiosity:
XeTeX -> pdf: same result.
LucidaConsole CID TrueType, 
Consolas CID TrueType
understand: "OpenType"

jmf

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#61919 — Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)

On 14/12/2013 20:48, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>> print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u]))
> ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE
> LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE
> EURO SIGN
> CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456
> CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE
> COUNTERBORE
> ASTERISK
>
> -----
>
> cp65001, font: Consolas
>
> D:\jm\jmgo>echo "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
> "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
>
> As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph:
> the chars 1, 4 and 7.
>
> I build an exe with the golang. Same result.
>
> Just for curiosity:
> XeTeX -> pdf: same result.
> LucidaConsole CID TrueType,
> Consolas CID TrueType
> understand: "OpenType"
>
> jmf
>

Where is the Python related issue here?  Why do you keep posting double 
spaced crap, despite repeated requests not to do so?  Or do you blame 
this on the allegedly failed PEP 393 FSR implementation?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#61920 — Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:05:05 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 14/12/2013 20:48, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u]))
>> ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE
>> LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE
>> EURO SIGN
>> CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456
>> CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE
>> COUNTERBORE
>> ASTERISK
>>
>> -----
>>
>> cp65001, font: Consolas
>>
>> D:\jm\jmgo>echo "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
>> "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
>>
>> As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph: the
>> chars 1, 4 and 7.
>>
>> I build an exe with the golang. Same result.
>>
>> Just for curiosity:
>> XeTeX -> pdf: same result.
>> LucidaConsole CID TrueType,
>> Consolas CID TrueType
>> understand: "OpenType"
>>
>> jmf
>>
>>
> Where is the Python related issue here?

Read the whole thread before charging in like a bull at a gate accusing 
people of being off-topic. This is on-topic, and if you don't see the 
connection, you need to read the whole thread.


> Why do you keep posting double spaced crap, despite repeated requests
> not to do so?  Or do you blame this on the allegedly failed PEP 393 
> FSR implementation?

I see no double-spacing in the text you quoted.

Do you have nothing better to do than continually hassle people over 
minor formatting issues?

Formatting issues are harmful to the degree they get in the way of 
efficient communication. Since by your own admission you have never 
treated JMF as being credible, there's nothing he can write or say that 
you will believe, so why do you care what he writes? You are not the 
target of his communication unless you choose to be.

Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive 
screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor 
formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are complaining 
about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort to write up a 
wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that will only go so 
far in forgiving disruptive behaviour.


-- 
Steven

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#61922 — Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)

On 14/12/2013 22:51, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:05:05 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> On 14/12/2013 20:48, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u]))
>>> ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE
>>> LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE
>>> EURO SIGN
>>> CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456
>>> CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE
>>> COUNTERBORE
>>> ASTERISK
>>>
>>> -----
>>>
>>> cp65001, font: Consolas
>>>
>>> D:\jm\jmgo>echo "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
>>> "ሴé€㑖Ѓ⌴*"
>>>
>>> As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph: the
>>> chars 1, 4 and 7.
>>>
>>> I build an exe with the golang. Same result.
>>>
>>> Just for curiosity:
>>> XeTeX -> pdf: same result.
>>> LucidaConsole CID TrueType,
>>> Consolas CID TrueType
>>> understand: "OpenType"
>>>
>>> jmf
>>>
>>>
>> Where is the Python related issue here?
>
> Read the whole thread before charging in like a bull at a gate accusing
> people of being off-topic. This is on-topic, and if you don't see the
> connection, you need to read the whole thread.

I have.  Going back over this thread the words from Terry Reedy make 
things perfectly clear that this is a *WINDOWS* problem, not a *PYTHON* 
one.  Chris Angelico also weighed in, but again he was simply ignored. 
Instead some completely irrelevant cobblers turned up from "Joseph 
McCarthy".

>
>
>> Why do you keep posting double spaced crap, despite repeated requests
>> not to do so?  Or do you blame this on the allegedly failed PEP 393
>> FSR implementation?
>
> I see no double-spacing in the text you quoted.

There is no double spacing because for the umpteenth time I've snipped 
the whole damn lot.

>
> Do you have nothing better to do than continually hassle people over
> minor formatting issues?

This is *NOT* a minor formatting issue, it's a big PITA that should be 
stopped at source.  It would be easier for this to happen if and only if 
people would stop defending the bug ridden crap tools that are being 
used to send the double spaced crap.

Oh Lord, won't you buy me Mozilla Thunderbird ?
My friends all use GG, I think that's absurd.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from the nerds,
So Lord, won't you buy me Mozilla Thunderbird ?

>
> Formatting issues are harmful to the degree they get in the way of
> efficient communication. Since by your own admission you have never
> treated JMF as being credible, there's nothing he can write or say that
> you will believe, so why do you care what he writes? You are not the
> target of his communication unless you choose to be.

While he continues to talk crap here I will respond, as I will also 
complain about double spaced google crap until it stops.  I will further 
state again that I find his disgusting, unwarrented attacks on the PEP 
393 FSR indefensible, and are also an attack on the core developers 
who've taken the time to deliver a faster, (relatively) bug free and 
lower memory useage implementation of unicode for Python 3.3+.

>
> Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive
> screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor
> formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are complaining
> about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort to write up a
> wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that will only go so
> far in forgiving disruptive behaviour.
>

Your opinion, obviously I disagree, these IMO are *NOT* minor issues, 
and they're also completely avoidable.  Stop the problems at source and 
there are no issues to complain about.  I've written no such thing, I 
simply point it out half a dozen times a day as the latest pile of crap 
turns up here.  Stop the problems at source and there are no issues to 
complain about.  Yes, that's there twice so nobody can miss it.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#61931 — Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)

On Sunday, December 15, 2013 4:21:08 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive 
> screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor 
> formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are complaining 
> about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort to write up a 
> wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that will only go so 
> far in forgiving disruptive behaviour.

I guess you are talking about
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython

As you will see
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython?action=info

most of the edits there are by rurpy and the recent ones
(sorry I missed putting comments) which are for a more automatic solution
are by me.

[No I am not asking for 'gratitude'... just sayin' and giving some context]

There was this ridiculous guy Jonas
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-October/658671.html

who responded to calls to correct the typical GG mess with more and more
exceptional rudeness
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-October/658816.html

So I thought to myself: Well this is too much!
And yet while the rudeness is indefensible the technical grumble:
"I'm not going to go deleting newlines" is not.

Hell! Rather than making a socio-eco-politco-anthropo-marxist-feminist
mess, why dont we fix a technical problem technically??

To me all this GG complaining sounds like some elderly mom-pop-uncle
who weeps/coaxes/moans/pleads/grumbles/ about a fused light bulb,
rather than climbing on a stool and changing the bloody thing.

So, given that I am a programmer I came up (with some tips from Kushal
Kumaran?) with a technical solution.  If I were an ace programmer (can
learn JS in a day and make useful contributions) it would have been a
0-click solution.  [And if I were a super-ace, it would have been a
beneficient virus, that would comb the net, discover all GG users and
self-install without anyone's knowing] Since I am not ace or super-ace
but only a humble programmer (like Dijkstra!) its a 2-click solution
that needs installation :-;

Still, GIVEN THE CONTEXT -- addressing not anyone but an already-GG
user who is clueless about the nuisance he's causing -- I think this
solution is easiest to all.

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#61933 — Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:42:40 -0800, rusi wrote:

> On Sunday, December 15, 2013 4:21:08 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive
>> screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor
>> formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are
>> complaining about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort
>> to write up a wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that
>> will only go so far in forgiving disruptive behaviour.
> 
> I guess you are talking about
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
> 
> As you will see
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython?action=info
> 
> most of the edits there are by rurpy and the recent ones (sorry I missed
> putting comments) which are for a more automatic solution are by me.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Mark had done most of the 
work. I hadn't realised that others had contributed most of the practical 
advice.


-- 
Steven

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#61938 — Re: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)

On Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:30:12 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Mark had done most of the 
> work. I hadn't realised that others had contributed most of the practical 
> advice.

To be fair, I added the stuff to the wiki on Mark's prompting.
Earlier was under the impression that not anyone could edit the wiki.

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